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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Sir Stompy said:
How do you feel about testing some new macerator loadouts?

We've been talking for a while about loading red hot gravel/sand or molten rock/metal into a macerator and seeing if we can get a good weapon out of it.
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The science plan is more focused on ES testing than anything else, and I'm kinda hoping for it to be more soothing/satisfying than exciting/powerful. Hazou needs some soothing.

Plus, I'm expecting that the context of the ES test is "far off away from civilization, just in case" and I expect that we would need to be in civilization to prepare macerators like that. I'm not against testing it, but it feels an ill fit for this cycle's science plan.
 
[X] Action Plan: Build a Better World but Snakes
Word Count: 309 + 138
  • Asuma:
    • Ruka:
      • Indefinite exile seems unproductive. It does not help the village and breeds resentment. Could the punishment be less about ruining lives and more about helping others? The hate has to stop somewhere. Like you said, hatred/contempt rarely survive prolonged exposure. Perhaps mandatory till & fill missions alongside KEI ninja would serve the village better?
      • As a Clan we are all about Uplift and would ask for Tower punishments in which we are the aggrieved party to involve helping the people of Fire, be they ninja or civilians, where possible. Its what Akane would have wanted.
    • Reconcilliation:
      • You're right that having Goketsu and Hagoromo work together may help break the cycle. Noburi and Neji have settled into a respectful rivalry and a lot of that has to do with how they've been made to interact with each other cooperatively.
      • Put Goketsu and Hagoromo together on Till'n'Fills or similar cooperative missions?
        • Let a neutral third party lead.
        • Missions get done (check), clan ninja are pushed to cooperate (check) and get to see each other as people (check)
      • Arrange activites for clan civilians, and 'coincidentally' make Goketsu and Hagoromo pair together.
    • Ask Asuma what being tutored by him would involve. Let Hazou-pilot decide.
    • Ask for Sealing SJ rank. We are qualfiied as Orochimaru can attest, but also need to improve due to the Great Seal and ask permission to seek formal apprenticeship with the Sannin for much can be said but there is no denying his competence.
  • Earthshaping science.
  • Orochimaru:
    • (if Asuma agrees) When we next meet, ask if he would be willing to set aside some time to tutor us in Sealing on a regular basis. We need to improve. We can help him with the Great Seal at no cost. Mention ES 50 capabilities.
 
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Lord Marshal said:
Are we going to do the "Canvass check the scents of different people/object" + "Propose asking Hidan to Asuma" in another plan later down the line?
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Canvass check might be in this plan, we will see. Hidan...I am against it; the previous plan made me...a mite concerned.
Noumero said:
I'd like to note that I'm very skeptical that this can work, and same for Asuma's wider idea of forced Gouketsu/Hagoromo interactions. It is in fact entirely possible to interact with someone daily, learning to know them better, and have that only fuel the fires of your irrational hate.

Abstractly speaking, we can take on the framing of trapped priors. Human perception operates on something called predictive processing. Essentially, every time we observe something — like someone greeting you — the picture we get is not purely based on sensory information. Rather, it's a combination of a top-down predictive model (what we expect to see) and bottom-up sensory data (what we actually see). Thus, our biases can literally influence what we see. If we expect someone to dislike us, even an entirely even-toned and friendly greeting would sound hostile to us. Not because our conscious mind misinterprets it, but because the upstream information-processing machinery literally feeds us a biased perspective.

In the worst cases, like severe trauma or depression or political fanatism, these top-down priors become "trapped". You become so utterly convinced that some experience is horrible, or that someone hates you, that there's virtually nothing that can change your mind. Even very strong evidence to the contrary gets twisted on the way to your conscious mind, to instead serve as further evidence supporting your deeply-set belief.

So I expect these mandatory sessions to only make each party even more convinced that the other is vile scum.

In this case, it'd even be boosted by the "mandatory" part. People don't like being manipulated, so Ruka and Gouketsu/Hagoromo will proactively resolve not to let this work, to keep on hating KEI ninja/each other; actively look for evidence of the other's vileness and nurture it.

There are two tweaks that can make it more likely to work:
  • Make it more extreme. Send Ruka on a long-term low-risk mission in a group of KEI ninja, such that she's cut off from the other Hagoromo with whom she can commiserate about the terrible mudfeet, and is instead forced to learn to work with and trust them. Wider Gouketsu/Hagoromo... dunno, something similar; maybe some incident in which both clans are endangered and have to help each other out to succeed (and the game is rigged such that defecting is moronic).
  • Make it less extreme. Provide Ruka with soft incentives to interact more with KEI ninja/civilians, like bonus pay for till'n'fills or something, and some soft (and not-very-manipulative) incentive to be nice to them, like grading her based on the anonymous reviews from the civilians she interacted with or something. Regarding Gouketsu/Hagoromo, same: find some sphere of activity (trade, etc.) in which the interactions between them can be purely positive, minimize other contact (which has chances to go poorly), then gradually expand the contact surface until they're intermingling more properly.
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I'm willing to make changes, and added a slight adjustment, but am not sure how I would implement these suggestions effectively. It seems a combination of "make them do long-term till'n'fills" and "reward them for being nicer to civilians/do a good job"?
acidshill said:
[X] Action Plan: Building a Better World

IV's science plan already includes a sanity check, and we can't sanity check stuff for the meeting with Asuma Hazō is already in, so I think you can save the wordcount here.

I also have two requests. First, add a line about acquiring an assortment of herbs and spices for Canvass to later compare against what she smelled earlier. This can be delegated, and I think won't require a scene, but we do need to get the ball rolling. Canvass doing the comparison later probably does require a scene, but I figure it will probably take a few days to buy a good variety of samples, so that can happen next update.

Second, I believe @FaintlySorcerous suggested that part or all of the compensation the Hagoromo are paying should be contributed to the Team Akane Seal Bank. I think it would be good to suggest this to Asuma because it gives the appearance that the Gōketsu and Hagoromo are working together to improve the survival rate of clanless genin.
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Canvass stuff has been booped, and I may or may not add it unless some big third scene shows up.

I'm confused about the compensation the Hagoromo are paying: FMPOV, Ruka is being banished and the Tower is being audited, and that's it? Where is this compensation?
_The_Bomb said:
No spoons for planmaking but wanted to suggest visiting Cannai as one of the ways to help Hazō relax and grieve



Bonus points, do some ES while you're with Cannai. Maybe he can give you some extra insight into things, given his deep connection to the Land which you are shaping.

Bonus bonus points. Maybe play something on your flute too.

@eaglejarl, how fun would a scene like this be for you to write?
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Right, visiting Cannai is another option.
faflec said:
[X] Action Plan: Building a Better World
Word Count: 243 + 138
  • Sanity check with Mari.
  • Asuma:
    • Ruka:
      • Clarification: Is her punishment for her missteps, or mostly Akane?
      • If it's mostly Akane...indefinite exile seems harsh. It's effectively a death sentence.
      • The hate must stop somewhere. We're asking, as a clan head and aggrieved party, for you to exercise leniency.
      • Maybe change it to something else - Long-term mandatory work (till n' fills?) alongside KEI ninja? Like you said, hatred/contempt rarely survives prolonged exposure.
    • Reconciliation:
      • You're right that having Goketsu and Hagoromo work together may help break the cycle. Noburi and Neji may not be the best of friends, but they've settled into a respectful rivalry since they first met. A lot of that has to do with how they've been made to interact with each other, especially cooperatively. As for what else could be done...
      • Put Goketsu and Hagoromo ninja together on long-term Till'n'Fills requiring multiple people. Make the mission something that both parties needto contribute cooperatively to succeed.
        • Let a neutral third party lead the mission (Sarutobi? Aburame?).
        • Missions get done (check), clan members are pushed to interact cooperatively during the mission (check), both sides get to see each other as people (check check check)...
      • Arrange for game nights for clan ninja or civilians, and 'coincidentally' make Goketsu and Hagoromo pair off together.
        • We're not sure if inviting them to our compound would make them comfortable, given everything (and vice versa). Are there neutral places where this could take place?
  • Do Earthshaping science.
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People have made suggestions to add Canvass smell-test, or grieving w/ Cannai, to the plan. I'm unsure to what extent those would be off-screened (and if either can be), and want to hear from all of you if they should both be added to the plan, and if not which you would prefer.
 
Crunbum said:
Orochimaru
  • (if Asuma agrees) When we next meet, ask him in person if he would be willing to set aside some time to tutor us in Sealing on a regular basis. We need to improve. We can help him with the Great Seal at no cost. Mention ES 50 capabilities.
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You know we are actually a lot better than Orochimaru when it comes to Sealing, right? It's absurd, but our shiny is really really good.
 
Lord Marshal said:
i have no spoons for planmaking(I tried), i will vote for plans that move the following plotlines: :V

-Finally obtain a basement.(Long live ES 50).
- Orochimaru and/or Asuma apprenticeship
-Conquer Leaf Economy with ES
-Aspirational Necromancy Speech/Bringing Yuno into necromancy(Sanity-checked)
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Would the above plan suffice to earn your vote?
 
_The_Bomb said:
You know we are actually a lot better than Orochimaru when it comes to Sealing, right? It's absurd, but our shiny is really really good.
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We are not better, let alone by a lot, as can be seen with us recently failing the check to impress him with our thoughts on his notes, by almost enough for him to outright dismiss us as dull and incompetent. He is Orochimaru and he has his own shinies, presumably, and a lot more XP to throw at the skill, even if they are not as good. Also, our shiny does not really help broaden our Sealing knowledge, and we doubtless have much to learn.

And proving valuable to the Snake Sannin is also overall generally not a bad idea. He is a slithery snake, yes, but he is genuine in his pursuit of knowledge, and I strongly believe he respects that in others, both as a trait and as a competence.
 
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faflec said:
Canvass check might be in this plan, we will see. Hidan...I am against it; the previous plan made me...a mite concerned.

I'm willing to make changes, and added a slight adjustment, but am not sure how I would implement these suggestions effectively. It seems a combination of "make them do long-term till'n'fills" and "reward them for being nicer to civilians/do a good job"?

Canvass stuff has been booped, and I may or may not add it unless some big third scene shows up.

I'm confused about the compensation the Hagoromo are paying: FMPOV, Ruka is being banished and the Tower is being audited, and that's it? Where is this compensation?

Right, visiting Cannai is another option.

People have made suggestions to add Canvass smell-test, or grieving w/ Cannai, to the plan. I'm unsure to what extent those would be off-screened (and if either can be), and want to hear from all of you if they should both be added to the plan, and if not which you would prefer.
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I would strongly support a Cannai Therapy scene onscreen. We've had a lot of discussion about it on discord these past twenty minutes, and seem to agree on a lot of what it should be. You should take a look!
 
_The_Bomb said:
I would strongly support a Cannai Therapy scene onscreen. We've had a lot of discussion about it on discord these past twenty minutes, and seem to agree on a lot of what it should be. You should take a look!
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And the Canvass scene? I'm not sure if it can be off-screened and don't want to lose XP for plan bloat.
 
Plan updates - notably, adding @Noumero's moderated debate suggestion and trimming some fat.
FaintlySorcerous said:
[X] Action Plan: Compassion
  • Asuma
    • Ruka
      • If her punishment is mostly for Akane, indefinite exile seems harsh. It's effectively a death sentence.
      • The hate has to stop somewhere. We're asking, as a clan head and aggrieved party, for you to exercise leniency. Five years is enough.
        • Maybe supplement it with mandatory work (till n' fills?) alongside KEI ninja? Like you said, hatred/contempt rarely survive prolonged exposure.
    • The Hagoromo
      • If some of the aggrieved can't be found (dead/no next of kin) may their fines be paid to the seal bank?
      • The Tower could keep the cash and donate seals. More seals in more hands, Tower's ready cash increases, benefits the aggrieved (overwhelmingly clanless genin, the bank's users).
    • Reconciliation
      • The Hagoromo are a big clan. Are there factions/individuals we'd find more amicable?
      • Mixing Hagoromo and Goketsu civilians seems wise. Where could GED graduates help?
    • Alternative/supplement:
      • Private, civilized ideological debates between Hazou and Ritsuo. Asuma sets topics, moderates, and has the final word.
      • Right now there's just hate without understanding. We need to understand the other's beliefs, what we can/can't compromise on before moving forward.
      • We both want what's best for the village.
      • We could test any testable (e.g., clanless vs. clan ninja) disagreements.
      • We'd need the aforementioned tutoring on being a clan head etc.
    • (With Mari's approval) discuss Orochimaru/Ren.
  • Do Earthshaping science.
  • Background
    • Mari
      • Canvass' timelines imply ambushers were deployed before Akane left/they knew her route. Could intel have been leaked? Could she have been deliberately dispatched to the ambushers?
      • What do we do about Orochimaru/Ren? How do we prepare for his return?
    • Sealing Research (offscreen?)
      • If Kagome approves (Hazo's mental state etc.) research Directional Explosives, the next Minato seal.
        • Eschew prep, use SSA, reroll -9/-12 on Sealing/Calligraphy rolls.
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Pinging voters: @Esryok, @RandomOTP, @Ronike. As our plans overlap, also pinging voters for @faflec's plan: @Inferno Vulpix, @acidshill, @cog-nito, @ContextBot.
faflec said:
Minor changes to reduce word count, but it's still >300 words when you include the plan + IV's Earthshaping stuff (does this count??).
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@Inferno Vulpix you made reference to QM remarks - can you answer this?
faflec said:
I'm confused about the compensation the Hagoromo are paying: FMPOV, Ruka is being banished and the Tower is being audited, and that's it? Where is this compensation?
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Bolded below. tl;dr the results of the audit may include fines which would be paid to the aggrieved/affected.
eaglejarl said:
"Without evidence of personal wrongdoing, I cannot punish Lord Hagoromo for whatever actions he may have taken on this issue," Asuma continued. He held up a hand to cut off Hazō's outburst. "On the other hand, he is the Clan Head and therefore responsible for the actions of his ninja. He allowed a culture of laziness and pettiness within the Hagoromo that let Ruka develop these habits, and he was sufficiently inattentive that she could get away with it. Every Hagoromo who works with the Tower is going to be thoroughly investigated. Anyone who shows signs of acting like Ruka will receive appropriate discipline. That might be anything from a monetary fine to banishment, but it will definitely involve losing their job with the Tower. Where appropriate, the Hagoromo as a clan will receive monetary fines and the money used to make whole those who were harmed." He gave Hazō a raised eyebrow. "Incidentally, it would be worth making a note of the fact that Clan Heads are responsible for the actions of their ninja. If Haru goes on any more murder rampages, or if any Gōketsu ninja gets into a brawl with a Hagoromo, you and I are going to have some very unfriendly words. The same goes for Lord Hagoromo if any of his people act out."
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Did I...just faflec faflec?
 
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faflec said:
And the Canvass scene? I'm not sure if it can be off-screened and don't want to lose XP for plan bloat.
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I really don't care about having a scene with Canvass. I'm not even sure what it would entail? Oh! We should probably mention how awesome she was and express our gratitude to Cannai for recommending her to us, like we did in your "One, Two, Three" plan.
 
faflec said:
[X] Action Plan: Building a Better World
Word Count: 243 + 138
  • Sanity check with Mari.
  • Asuma:
    • Ruka:
      • Clarification: Is her punishment for her missteps, or mostly Akane?
      • If it's mostly Akane...indefinite exile seems harsh. It's effectively a death sentence.
      • The hate must stop somewhere. We're asking, as a clan head and aggrieved party, for you to exercise leniency.
      • Maybe change it to something else - Long-term mandatory work (till n' fills?) alongside KEI ninja? Like you said, hatred/contempt rarely survives prolonged exposure.
    • Reconciliation:
      • You're right that having Goketsu and Hagoromo work together may help break the cycle. Noburi and Neji may not be the best of friends, but they've settled into a respectful rivalry since they first met. A lot of that has to do with how they've been made to interact with each other, especially cooperatively. As for what else could be done...
      • Put Goketsu and Hagoromo ninja together on long-term Till'n'Fills requiring multiple people. Make the mission something that both parties needto contribute cooperatively to succeed.
        • Let a neutral third party lead the mission (Sarutobi? Aburame?).
        • Missions get done (check), clan members are pushed to interact cooperatively during the mission (check), both sides get to see each other as people (check check check)...
      • Arrange for game nights for clan ninja or civilians, and 'coincidentally' make Goketsu and Hagoromo pair off together.
        • We're not sure if inviting them to our compound would make them comfortable, given everything (and vice versa). Are there neutral places where this could take place?
  • Do Earthshaping science.
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How do you feel about requesting specJ promotion?

[sidenote: I'd also like to have us pitch R&D missions

"Idea: R&D missions. You hire a ninja to research something for you as a mission via the tower. If a seal/technique, that thing is considered non-secret property of the hirer -- if people other than hirer/people they designate mod/hack/are-known-to-publically-use it then they're required to pay a fee (like how sealmasters need to pay to sell mods of someone else's seal)."

which people/Paper responded positively to on discord]
 
faflec said:
I don't...from the sounds of it the fines are being taken as a result of the audit, and the consequences for Ruka's actions are already determined (exile). Maybe I'm interpreting things wrong?
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IMO the consequences of Ruka's actions are twofold:

Asuma is exiling her. This is what he can do legally and directly.

Because he can't bring an actual case etc. against Ritsuo or the Hagoromo generally, he's auditing their work in the Tower. This hurts them because audits always find something. It isn't on paper related to Ruka in a tremendously direct way, but simultaneously, it's obvious to anyone in Leaf with two brain cells to rub together that if Ruka hadn't done this, there would be no audit, and no fines.
MadScientist said:
How do you feel about requesting specJ promotion?
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Can you articulate the benefits of promotion? Other than being paid a little more for missions etc., what changes?
 
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Extensive edits made:
Dictator4Hire said:
[X] Action Plan: Refocus and Reform
Word Count: 254
  • Quick sanity check with Team Uplift at our estate
    • Apologize to Mari and thank her for covering clan secret OPSEC
    • "Here's what I plan on doing, speak now if you believe any of these ideas to be unacceptable..."
  • ES50 Testing
    • Lean on Cannai for emotional support
  • Offer Asuma an alternative:
    • Private ideological debates between Hazou and Ritsuo with Asuma acting as an absolute mediator would better help mend the rift between our two clans because it would address the source of our disharmony
      • Ask for a schedule for Asuma to tutor Hazou on being a clan head
        • Hazou needs background information for a productive debate
      • The three of us will have preparation time to collect our thoughts and deliver respective our arguments with only interruptions allowed from Asuma
        • Asuma goes last to keep our results honest
      • Once we establish what each of our respective positions are (and those positions we still cannot compromise on), Asuma can then assign Goketsu and Hagaromo mixed teams to test which systems of belief actually work in practice without telling the participants which ideology suggested which tests
      • Of course, Asuma as Hokage can declare what is and isn't part of the Will of Fire throughout this entire process, not just results becoming impasses.
    • Thank him for being so understanding regardless
  • (If spoons permit for additional scenes or offscreened)
    • Spend time grieving with Ino and the rest of our family
    • Prep work for future updates:
      • Send a runner to the Inuzuka to retrieve spice samples for Canvass to later use
Edits in Cyan
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@Twinnstars @Aodyssey @Odgorian @Crunbum pinging since you all expressed interest in the ideological debate idea with Ritsuo posted on Monday

@_The_Bomb added in Cannai and Inuzuka stuff

@RandomOTP added in a line for spending time with Ino, QM spoons permitting
 
FaintlySorcerous said:
IMO the consequences of Ruka's actions are twofold:

Asuma is exiling her. This is what he can do legally and directly.

Because he can't bring an actual case etc. against Ritsuo or the Hagoromo generally, he's auditing their work in the Tower. This hurts them because audits always find something. It isn't on paper related to Ruka in a tremendously direct way, but simultaneously, it's obvious to anyone in Leaf with two brain cells to rub together that if Ruka hadn't done this, there would be no audit, and no fines.
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I suppose this makes sense. Still a bit leery about adding it before the results of the audit come in (and from the sounds of it we won't be the principally-harmed party compared to the KEI or Kei)...I'll think about it.

Other changes, though! Added "Grieve with Cannai", and an offscreen section to get scent markers to investigate with Canvass. Hopefully it can be offscreened since it's not a major thing; @eaglejarl Is this OK?
faflec said:
[X] Action Plan: Building a Better World
Word Count: ???
  • Sanity check with Mari.
  • Asuma:
    • Ruka:
      • Clarification: Is her punishment for her missteps, or mostly Akane?
      • If it's mostly Akane...indefinite exile seems harsh. It's effectively a death sentence.
      • The hate must stop somewhere. We're asking, as a clan head and aggrieved party, for you to exercise leniency.
      • Maybe change it to something else - Long-term mandatory work (till n' fills?) alongside KEI ninja? Like you said, hatred/contempt rarely survives prolonged exposure.
    • Reconciliation:
      • You're right that having Goketsu and Hagoromo work together may help break the cycle. Noburi and Neji may not be the best of friends, but they've settled into a respectful rivalry since they first met. A lot of that has to do with how they've been made to interact with each other, especially cooperatively. As for what else could be done...
      • Put Goketsu and Hagoromo ninja together on long-term Till'n'Fills requiring multiple people. Make the mission something that both parties needto contribute cooperatively to succeed.
        • Let a neutral third party lead the mission (Sarutobi? Aburame?).
        • Missions get done (check), clan members are pushed to interact cooperatively during the mission (check), both sides get to see each other as people (check check check)...
      • Arrange for game nights for clan ninja or civilians, and 'coincidentally' make Goketsu and Hagoromo pair off together.
        • We're not sure if inviting them to our compound would make them comfortable, given everything (and vice versa). Are there neutral places where this could take place?
  • Do Earthshaping science.
  • Grieve with Cannai.
  • Offscreen:
    • Send someone to get scent markers for Canvass' investigation. Enlist Inuzuka aid (?).
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I honestly don't care to debate with Ritsuo. Extremist bigots aren't going to listen to reason. Removing votes accordingly.

Out of state, may not be able to get on thread again until late tonight/early tomorrow.
 
FaintlySorcerous said:
IMO the consequences of Ruka's actions are twofold:

Asuma is exiling her. This is what he can do legally and directly.

Because he can't bring an actual case etc. against Ritsuo or the Hagoromo generally, he's auditing their work in the Tower. This hurts them because audits always find something. It isn't on paper related to Ruka in a tremendously direct way, but simultaneously, it's obvious to anyone in Leaf with two brain cells to rub together that if Ruka hadn't done this, there would be no audit, and no fines.

Can you articulate the benefits of promotion? Other than being paid a little more for missions etc., what changes?
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Status/reputation improvement (which is kind of a big deal because ninja culture places huge emphasis on rank/hierarchy, and our rep is sorta in the toilet atm).

Military chain of command (can give orders to chunin and have them obey which lets us cut through bullshit more easily).

Safety (makes us look like a harder target for assassination/etc., colour cabal were specifically like "we could try ganking him — he's just a chunin").
 
RandomOTP said:
I honestly don't care to debate with Ritsuo. Extremist bigots aren't going to listen to reason. Removing votes accordingly.
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Some notes:
  1. Keep in mind that we're debating in front of Asuma. Part of the goal here is to understand Ritsuo better, but Asuma is largely a liberal (certainly by the standards of MfD) and as much as anything, we're letting him compare our ideologies on topics where we disagree and draw conclusions accordingly.
  2. If Asuma signs off on this, it would be a blow to Ritsuo. He has to debate us. That's elevating our ideas to the level of his. He'd hate that.
  3. I suspect that EJ would derive great pleasure from writing Hazo destroying Ritsuo with facts and logic, which is probably what would happen when certain topics like same-sex unions and non-monogamous relationships came up.
I can see reasons you wouldn't want to read this, but IMO these debates would be substantially different than the normal state of affairs when a bigot debates a reasonable person. There's no audience, we respect the moderator, and the moderator has real power.

I don't expect to convince Ritsuo - I suspect that the best-case scenario there is we extract a few grudging concessions.

But I do expect Asuma to walk away with something to think about, both in terms of what we're saying and what we believe, and what Ritsuo's saying, why he's saying it, and whether or not he's comfortable with that man as Hidden Leaf's de facto moral authority.
 
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