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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Sand is basically worthless for agriculture. Why would anyone invade. The mystery is how Sand managed to be a Great Power without great farmland. Ditto for Rock and Cloud.

Actually, Earth, Wind, and Lighting are all terrible.

Leaf...somehow doesn't surpass these other powers. Maybe it has something to do with more and terrifying chakra beasts eating their farmers.
 
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ContextBot said:
They still have Chiyo, their puppets and bloodlines that could be helpful for all kind of things.

They also don't know about the Kurosawa bloodline (as far as we know), we could take almost their whole sealing Library, who knows what we could find? That's the country that produced Sasori after all.

I mean Isan was helpful and they are a just a bunch or randoms.
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I mostly agree with all of this. You can definitely make an argument for it. But it's almost certainly Shikamaru who's making the arguments. There's enough circumstantial evidence that I think it's worth looking into
 
Oneiros said:
Sorry was meant more metaphorical than actual. What we know is that there has been no major changes to the geopolitical environment since the founding of the Hidden Village system. The Five great villages stay the most powerful even through all the wars. No one splinters into a new village or is conquered. An equilibrium like that just seems weird right?
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That is very weird, yes.
 
Oneiros said:
Sorry was meant more metaphorical than actual. What we know is that there has been no major changes to the geopolitical environment since the founding of the Hidden Village system. The Five great villages stay the most powerful even through all the wars. No one splinters into a new village or is conquered. An equilibrium like that just seems weird right?
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Hmm?

Hidden Whirlpool either blew it self up or vanished into another realm of existance.
Hidden Depth was or is maybe real.
There was a Herring country at some point.
The quest started with an attempted invasion of Noodle.
Hot springs is or was an ally of Mist.
We found a Hidden village full of crazy people.
The Condors were peacefully integrated into the multi-cultural Holy Pango Emperium.

I think we don't see the Major changes because Hazou has only been paying attention for the last 3~ years,
 
ContextBot said:
With Sands help we actually get information on their territory, if we do most of the heavy lifting than all they need to do is give us some information and one or two experts for chakra beasts or just for the land.

The last Summoner also lived in the region, he probably had a clan or at least allies that at tried to find out what happened so they can tell us something that might help.

That way we don't have to commit a false flag and possible get dragged into a series of new problems.
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But the we don't need to commit to a false flag? That is a completely different strategy Asuma is using to drag Sand into the war. Also, what would stop Sand from taking the Scroll and...keep going as they are now?
 
ContextBot said:
Hmm?

Hidden Whirlpool either blew it self up or vanished into another realm of existance.
Hidden Depth was or is maybe real.
There was a Herring country at some point.
The quest started with an attempted invasion of Noodle.
Hot springs is or was an ally of Mist.
We found a Hidden village full of crazy people.
The Condors were peacefully integrated into the multi-cultural Holy Pango Emperium.

I think we don't see the Major changes because Hazou has only been paying attention for the last 3~ years,
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All of that is actually my point. There is a ton of chaos in the elemental nation but the five great villages endure. Not one of them has ever been destabilized or conquered. No one else has risen up to put themselves at the pinnacle of power. When Whirlpool tried to rise to that level 4 of the five all joined forces against them.
 
Velorien said:
Can someone point me to the post on Air Tunnelling maths?
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ProperAttorney said:
A few concerns were brought up when the Air Tunnel seals were proposed.

  1. But the air it has to store on the way down is way too much! It won't be able to fit!

    Our best measuring stick for storing a gas is Implosion Seals. With a radius of 1-20 m, an Implosion Seal is capable of storing (V = (4/3)πr^3) between 4.2 m^3 and 33510 m^3 of atmosphere pressure air. We'll use 33510 m^3 as our absolute maximum and aim to be well below it.

    Okay, so now we have our maximum volume to store. We are currently operating under the premise that we are staying within the troposphere, so we'll use 12 km as our maximum operating height. By dividing 33510 m^3 by 12000 m, we get 2.8 m^2. So long as no one seal has an absorption area of 2.8 m^2 when dropped from <=12 km, they won't exceed our observed maximum air storage of 33510 m^3.

  2. Okay, so it's probably not too MUCH air, but it's going to have to absorb it too quickly! It won't be able to keep up!

    For this one, we're going to have to get into the actual payload that is being dropped. The current plan is to use Hazo's Earthshaping jutsu at maximum volume (16 m^3) in order to merge sealed chunks of granite 12 km above the ground into a rectangular prism. Granite has a density of 2700 kg/m^3, so 16 m^3 of it will have a mass of 43,200 kg and be 1.67 x 1.67 x 5.74 meters.

    When you don't have to worry about air resistance, you get a neat equation for finding the velocity of a free falling object after it falls d distance. (v = sqrt(2gd) ) We are, perhaps foolishly, assuming that gravity is 9.81 m/s^2. This means that after falling for 12 km, the object has a velocity of 485 m/s.

    We calculated that maximum area of our seal can be 2.8 m^2, the current size of the bottom of our projectile. Since this is the absolute maximum, let's split it into 4, just to be on the safe side. This means that each seal will cover an area of 0.7 m^2. When traveling at the maximum velocity, 485 m/s, that seal would have to absorb 340 m^3/s. This is orders of magnitude less than a 20 m Implosion Seal's instantaneous storage of 33510 m^3.

  3. Okay, fine. It can store enough air and it can store it fast enough. How much damage does it do?

    ....That's a hard one. We have a mass and final velocity, so we can calculate the kinetic energy in the payload. (E = (1/2)mv^2 ) Our 43,200 kg payload traveling at 485 m/s will have 5.08e+9 Joules of kinetic energy. Is that sufficient to penetrate or damage Hidden Rock's underground areas? Only time will tell. If it requires additional energy, we can attempt to scale even higher in the atmosphere with the proper precautions.
Air density is much lower at high altitude, so the total amount of air absorbed by the seals is actually lower than calculated. This means that the area covered by one could theoretically be larger, though there are few benefits to actually doing so.
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Very reasonable amounts of air storage required (though maybe not considering negative pressure effects?), rate of falling becomes equal to gravity alone since air pressure no longer affects the falling object, decent amount of energy is delivered.
 
Lord Marshal said:
But the we don't need to commit to a false flag? That is a completely different strategy Asuma is using to drag Sand into the war. Also, what would stop Sand from taking the Scroll and...keep going as they are now?
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Asuma and Shikamaru have been talking about the false flag, they seem to think it's a good idea. The current winning plan makes no real argument besides: We could give them the scroll.

My whole argument is that we can simple commit to the diplomatic approach instead of trying some "clever" idea that can backfire.

And nothing stops Sand from betraying us, besides that they would break the already existing alliance and broke the terms of whatever we would negotiate for the scroll.

If you think that's a thing people just do, then I doubt we can make allies with anyone.
 
[X] Action Plan: The Sand Option
Word Count: 298

  • Sanity check with Mari and Kagome where appropriate.
  • Nara
    • Discuss Otter/Sand strategy with war advisors.
    • Sand False Flag Operation:
      • Hazou thinks it's a bad idea.
        • If ploy fails, Sand might join Rock instead. Additionally, we're weakening a weak ally further.
      • Actually, why don't we fully commit to helping Sand find the Otter scroll?
        • On the condition that if Sand and Leaf succeeded in the endeavor, Sand joins the War against Rock.
        • If Sand decided to turn on us, the Otter's almost surrounded by Leaf allied clans anyway.
      • Instead of committing false flag against Sand, try performing false flag against Rock, posing as Sand?
        • If ploy fails, operation is still valuable because it weakens our enemies. If successful, we can retreat into Wind Country to bait Rock into invading.
        • There's less risk of turning an ally against ourselves.
      • Preferably, no false flag at all. Jutsu and clan techniques are distinctive and would identify us as Leaf. Similarly, it's challenging imitating another village's signature abilities. To get Sand to deploy, we could offer food deals or money. The Scroll, even.
  • Seal research:
    • Download all the publicly available seals.
      • Take care of OPSEC to not reveal Hazo's bloodline.
      • Check out a few(with preferably live seal) a day and return them later.
    • Continue Air Tunnel research.
    • Look into 3D sealing. Ask Kagome and others. Required ink? Smoothness of rocks. Craving? How does that work?
    • Hire a scholar to do a survey on geology.
      • Looking specifically for rocks that most resembles the substrate Great Seal is made of.
      • Otherwise, collect samples of every kind of rocks there is.
        • Shape, color, roughness, texture, strength, etc.
    • Look into 3D geometry
      • Hire the scholar to teach Hazo 3D math.
        • Look into funding the scholar's mathematical research.
      • Hazo will keep 3D math in mind when working on 3D sealing, trying to see if there's any cross connections.

[X] (OtterRec) Otter Hunters - Stealth Option
  • Necessary roles (some may overlap):
    • Two Combat Specs.
      • Suggestions: Yuno, Akane, a Summoner like Kei or Ruri
    • Social Spec/Infiltrator, for coaxing info from locals without giving away ninja-ness.
      • Suggestions: Mari, Yamanaka
    • Tracker/Scout/Anti-Ambush, for locating the Scroll and any useful locations our intel gives us.
      • Suggestions: Hazou (if he can acquire Summons), Inuzuka
    • Hyuuga or Sasuke for detecting the Scroll's chakra signature.
      • Suggestions: Neji, Motokazu, Sasuke
    • A Summoner.
      • Suggestions: Hazou, Kei, Neji, Ruri
  • Possible concerns:
    • Inuzuka dogs, Hyuuga eyes, Aburame glasses, Summon Scrolls are all distinctive. Perhaps team could be granted ANBU masks to hide byakugan?
  • Additionally:
    • Hazou or Mari should stay to help run Goketsu, don't send both.
  • Mission Outline
    • Travel to Summoner's last known location.
    • Retrace his journey north.
    • Collect local intel.
    • Locate Scroll.
 
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ContextBot said:
And nothing stops Sand from betraying us, besides that they would break the already existing alliance and broke the terms of whatever we would negotiate for the scroll.

If you think that's a thing people just do, then I doubt we can make allies with anyone.
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If we give Sand the summon scroll there would be a disincentive against betraying us, since they'd be part of the 7th path trade network and would get a ton of money/food/whatever material goods they want from that. While they could theoretically do the same thing with another village, in practice Leaf has the most scrolls so they wouldn't get anywhere near the same amount of benefit. Not to mention Leaf is quite wealthy itself and already has existing trade deals with Sand that would only get better with summoner logistics.

Not to mention if Sand betrays us their shiny new summoner won't be very useful since the Leaf-aligned clans can wipe out the otters.

TlDr: Sand will have both economic and military incentives to not betray us if we give them the otter scroll.
 
[X] Action Plan: The Sand Option

Kiba said:
  • If Sand decided to turn on us, the Otter's fully surrounded by Leaf allied clans anyway.
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Almost,

eaglejarl said:
Shit fighters, great spies and infiltrators (calming aura). Territory is the SEmost on the continent, Turtle/Otter/Toad in left-to-right arc on northern border.
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But we can also go for the Capybara, just murder some Bioealsing crazy people in Rice.

Sentient Tree said:
If we give Sand the summon scroll there would be a disincentive against betraying us, since they'd be part of the 7th path trade network and would get a ton of money/food/whatever material goods they want from that. While they could theoretically do the same thing with another village, in practice Leaf has the most scrolls so they wouldn't get anywhere near the same amount of benefit. Not to mention Leaf is quite wealthy itself and already has existing trade deals with Sand that would only get better with summoner logistics.

Not to mention if Sand betrays us their shiny new summoner won't be very useful since the Leaf-aligned clans can wipe out the otters.

TlDr: Sand will have both economic and military incentives to not betray us if we give them the otter scroll.
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I mean yeah, but I basically said that yesterday :V
 
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Kiba said:
[X] Action Plan: The Sand Option
Word Count: 298

  • Sanity check with Mari and Kagome where appropriate.
  • Nara
    • Discuss Otter/Sand strategy with war advisors.
    • Sand False Flag Operation:
      • Hazou thinks it's a bad idea.
        • If ploy fails, Sand might join Rock instead. Additionally, we're weakening a weak ally further.
      • Actually, why don't we fully commit to helping Sand find the Otter scroll?
        • On the condition that if Sand and Leaf succeeded in the endeavor, Sand joins the War against Rock.
        • If Sand decided to turn on us, the Otter's almost surrounded by Leaf allied clans anyway.
      • Instead of committing false flag against Sand, try performing false flag against Rock, posing as Sand?
        • If ploy fails, operation is still valuable because it weakens our enemies. If successful, we can retreat into Wind Country to bait Rock into invading.
        • There's less risk of turning an ally against ourselves.
      • Preferably, no false flag at all. Jutsu and clan techniques are distinctive and would identify us as Leaf. Similarly, it's challenging imitating another village's signature abilities. To get Sand to deploy, we could offer food deals or money. The Scroll, even.
  • Seal research:
    • Hazo goes to the Sealing library. He proceed to flip through and download all the seals, only stopping if he feels a bit off.
    • Continue Air Tunnel research.
    • Look into 3D sealing. Ask Kagome and others. Required ink? Smoothness?
    • Hire a scholar to do a survey on geology.
      • Looking specifically for rocks that most resembles the substrate Great Seal is made of.
      • Otherwise, collect samples of every kind of rocks there is.
        • Shape, color, size, location, strength, etc.
    • Look into 3D geometry
      • Hazo had a math book on cones and stuff, fairly abstract and seemly useless. But maybe it could be made useful
      • Talk to a mathematician on geometry, see how 3D geometry could be made relevant.
      • Hire the scholar to teach Hazo 3D math.
      • Regardless, look into funding said scholar for a year of mathematical work.


[X] (OtterRec) Otter Hunters - Stealth Option
  • Necessary roles (some may overlap):
    • Two Combat Specs.
      • Suggestions: Yuno, Akane, a Summoner like Kei or Ruri
    • Social Spec/Infiltrator, for coaxing info from locals without giving away ninja-ness.
      • Suggestions: Mari, Yamanaka
    • Tracker/Scout/Anti-Ambush, for locating the Scroll and any useful locations our intel gives us.
      • Suggestions: Hazou (if he can acquire Summons), Inuzuka
    • Hyuuga or Sasuke for detecting the Scroll's chakra signature.
      • Suggestions: Neji, Motokazu, Sasuke
    • A Summoner.
      • Suggestions: Hazou, Kei, Neji, Ruri
  • Possible concerns:
    • Inuzuka dogs, Hyuuga eyes, Aburame glasses, Summon Scrolls are all distinctive. Perhaps team could be granted ANBU masks to hide byakugan?
  • Additionally:
    • Hazou or Mari should stay to help run Goketsu, don't send both.
  • Mission Outline
    • Travel to Summoner's last known location.
    • Retrace his journey north.
    • Collect local intel.
    • Locate Scroll.
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Added a new Sealing research section.
 
eaglejarl said:
You were an advisor to Shikamaru. He's the head of the war council and it's his responsibility to bring plans to the Hokage in a timely way. Assume that it got done in the background. If you want to put together a recommendation and vote it in separate from the plan, that's fine. Please tag it like so:

[] (OtterRec) <people's names or descriptions>

If you want to include more explanatory detail below, that's fine but it won't be considered normative.
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Kiba said:
If the QM don't mind, I'll split the Otter Hunter recoommendation to its own vote, and use the additional space to write other things, like research on the Great Seal.
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[X] (OtterRec) Otter Hunters - Stealth Option
[X] (OtterRec) Hazou
[X] (OtterRec) Hazou, Condor Summoner, a Hyuuga, an Aburame, and an Earth ninjutsu specialist.

I mostly just want to see the Ruri conversation. Someone whip up a plan with that and I'll likely vote for you, I don't really feel like doing it right now
 
Paperclipped said:
Sure thing boss. Ruri convo + Snowflake birthday gift/training plan delivery (possibly with offscreenable update Cannai/Kumokogo so that it doesn't get ignored) sound right?
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Personally would greatly like checking in with Noburi to see how getting a Toad to embark on a journey to the west. Other than that no preference
 
PSA: The conversation with Cannai and Kumokōgō has happened.

After the end of the latest chapter, Hazō popped back to the Seventh Path and talked to both Clan Bosses about what happened and the deaths of their people. Both were saddened at the loss but understood them and did not blame Hazō, even going so far as to be reassuring/supportive.
 
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[X] Action Plan: Following Through
Word Count: 256
  • Ruri
    • Optimize with Mari, Shikamaru, Asuma (if Shikamaru approves)
    • Pass on Kei's messages.
      • Subtext: Pangolins visiting Condor is a trap for Condor resistance and their informants may be compromised/fed false info. They can't know Kei passed it along.
    • Please don't let the Condors fall into the obvious trap.
    • More generally, don't let them do anything with this intelligence – i.e. attacking somewhere unprotected.
      • Kei cares a lot about the Condors thanks to her past, and wants to see them freed.
      • Proving to the Pangolins that Kei is feeding the Condors information via Hazou/Ruri will burn her ability to do that.
  • Snowflake:
    • Happy birthday!
    • (If QM spoons allow, birthday party! Or the previously mentioned shopping spree)
    • When convenient, present updated training plan to her and Kei.
      • Gives her 12 continuous hours right away, and a full day soon, hopefully.
  • Misc
    • Check with Mari.
    • Check in with Noburi – how's the recruitment going for a Toad representative in Dog? Can we help break down any barriers or offer incentives?
      • Remind him that Asuma can fund it.
      • Offer to summon some Dogs to meet Toads if that'll help.
    • 3D sealing:
      • If reasonably affordable, buy a copy of all seals available on the market.
      • Ask Asuma which seals that the Tower has access to can be shared with Hazou. Request all available information.
      • Gaku:
        • Buy copies of math books related to geometry or 3d space.
        • Find any competent civilian mathematicians – perhaps among daimyo?
    • Test burning 5SB'd spider silk. Does burning count as physical damage, and is prevented by 5SB?



Nice and simple. The Ruri section has been heavily compressed from previous plan cycles -- should we expand it back out?
 
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[X] Action Plan: Following Through

Paperclipped said:
Nice and simple. The Ruri section has been heavily compressed from previous plan cycles -- should we expand it back out?
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I think we should expand it enough to put in that we would like Ruri to convince the condors not to do the attack. Wouldn't hurt to also put in that this is an opportunity for them to attack targets elsewhere that will be less defended due to Kei's visit.
 
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