- Location
- Omniverse #1345
Why? A boy and his friend, a fox, seems perfectly disney to me!
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
- Start date
-
- Tags
- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
Why? A boy and his friend, a fox, seems perfectly disney to me!
- Location
- how about no
Obviously I'd become a messiah-like figure promoting the virtues of bonds and camaraderie by punching people and THEN talking to them.
/s in case it wasn't obvious
TaliesinSkye
Occasional Editor
- Location
- Northeast Ohio, United States
Occasionally, if she feels the targets deserve it. That's basically normal human psychology, if on the darker side of what humans are capable of. It's probably an adaptive remnant from when we lived in societies without effective laws and law enforcement and had to enforce norms ourselves. It's deeply baked in, even infants too young to talk already have a sense of retributive justice. They display it in things like laughing when a puppet that's done a bad thing gets punished, but crying when the puppet being punished isn't the bad puppet.
A sociopath would be literally incapable of feeling guilt over hurting someone later, or considering themselves a bad person for having enjoyed hurting someone. Mari's tearful guilt thing makes her a decent person, or at least someone with the capacity to be a decent person. (Sociopaths can be very good at faking the tearful guilt thing to escape consequences, but that's not the case with Mari.)
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- Location
- Italy
One important thing i would like to note: Amy "favours" are not "rare unique items", they are an imaginary currency that Ami uses and nothing more.
Using it will be extremely helpful, but also means we enter her game, with her rules: If we use her favours, that means every thing she does for us is a favour, is it not? Same for the opposite, everything we'll do for her becomes a favour.
Becoming "Allies" will be extremely difficult, because Ami will always force the relationship into one of "Favours", that we already accepted.
I believe the problem lies not in "How do we use this favour" but "What starting to use favours means?".
At her core? No. She loves feeling in control, and having the power she has on another person is an intoxicating power, for almost everyone.
But i don't think she enjoy hurting people in and on itself, then again, these thing are complicated and a binary answer is almost never the right answer.
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- Location
- Kiev, Ukraine
So, I've been meaning to ask this for quite a time...
What's the deal with the Clone technics?
I get it that they are chakra constructs that posses all the chakra that was put in them on time of creation and inable to generate their own (duh). But what is the difference between various types? Is Water Clone made of water chakra? Is Earth Clone made of earth Chakra?
Does it have some effect on what jutsu they can use? Can it use them at all?
Are there other clones than water/earth/shadow that we know of, excluding canon? Are there some restrictions on lightning/fire/wind clones, like logical/chakra bs limitations?
Finally, how are clones the exact replicas of creator in terms of appearance? I understand that clone technics can copy the body of a creator since it is tied to Chakra system, but what about clothes and equipment?
Chakra-enhanced equipment apparently doesn't posses original equipment's feature, i.e. cloned seals would be a pieces of paper, but what about plainer objects like kunais and shurikens? Are they usable and to what extent?
I assumed that anything except the body was a henge-like illusion built in the jutsu, but now that Henge is eaten away - how do clones function?
I suppose that most of these questions have been answered throughout the thread, but I've been around in the discussion not long enough to find out, so please bear with me if it is something obvious/already answered.
What's the deal with the Clone technics?
I get it that they are chakra constructs that posses all the chakra that was put in them on time of creation and inable to generate their own (duh). But what is the difference between various types? Is Water Clone made of water chakra? Is Earth Clone made of earth Chakra?
Does it have some effect on what jutsu they can use? Can it use them at all?
Are there other clones than water/earth/shadow that we know of, excluding canon? Are there some restrictions on lightning/fire/wind clones, like logical/chakra bs limitations?
Finally, how are clones the exact replicas of creator in terms of appearance? I understand that clone technics can copy the body of a creator since it is tied to Chakra system, but what about clothes and equipment?
Chakra-enhanced equipment apparently doesn't posses original equipment's feature, i.e. cloned seals would be a pieces of paper, but what about plainer objects like kunais and shurikens? Are they usable and to what extent?
I assumed that anything except the body was a henge-like illusion built in the jutsu, but now that Henge is eaten away - how do clones function?
I suppose that most of these questions have been answered throughout the thread, but I've been around in the discussion not long enough to find out, so please bear with me if it is something obvious/already answered.
Noumero
Omit Needless Words
That's really not my impression of her character.
You could claim that all of this is just Hana and Mari reinterpreting the past in the most uncharitable way possible, with some lies and propaganda added in. But I don't think that's it. Hana wouldn't have condemned Mari's past that much if all Mari did was killing and manipulating people on missions. It makes much more sense if she took it with herself in Mist, destroying uninvolved innocents' lives on her own initiative just because she found it enjoyable. All of it makes much more sense if she actually was a despicable person, a monster, even by jounin ninja's standards.
That doesn't change who she became over the course of the story — we have every reason to believe that now she is a decent person who deserves happiness1. But I feel that painting her as some nearly-innocent soul who was involuntary forced into evil would be extremely erroneous. It won't let us help her, as all our arguments or attempts at therapy would miss the mark, and it would leave us wide open to the potential return of Heartbreaker, if she ever decides she needs to do something behind our backs.
Like right now.
1. I mean, not that horrible people don't deserve happiness. I firmly believe that in the ideal world, any sentient being should be allowed to be happy, no matter what this happiness entails. I meant "deserves to be happy even in more conventional moral systems".
- Location
- Yes.
I read Mari's past in Mist as her trying to create relationships but then getting bored and then leaving them (usually to their detriment). Might have been her personality, might have been TLitF-triggered. Personally, I think we don't have enough information to really make a decision, one way or the other.
Evenstar
Triple Jump Unlocked
- Location
- Canada
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Mari was and is monstrous.
She is a deep-cover agent who uses intimacy and compassion as her weapons. She's not wrong that she's done monstrous things, and doing them has fundamentally damaged her. I model the human psyche as being vulnerable to moral injury or perpetrator trauma, and from that perspective Mari's taken many, many blows to her heart and mind in the name of loyalty and duty.
She doesn't know how to stop being a weapon, because her heart is the knife she drives into others' backs.
She doesn't know how to let anyone else in, because she learned that intimacy is vulnerability is death.
She knows all too well that another's good opinion of her doesn't make her heart any less black or her hands any less stained. She's killed people who've told her they love her. She's killed people who've told her they forgive her.
Part of her loved it. Part of her was satisfied with it, thrilled by it, reveled in it. She was a good, strong tool and served her purpose well. She was challenged by it. She was pushed to her limits by it. She was given the control she needed so badly after being abused, and all she had to give up for it was a love no-one had ever offered her and that she didn't believe really existed.
Her work gave her pride and power and vengeance and made it clear to the world she was no-one's plaything. Her lizard-brain status-games drive, starved for so long, grew fat and happy on her bloody spoils.
I built a mechanical system for socially modelling people for Her Mantle Is Love. At its core, it's based around a set of 15 deep and fundamental human drives. Here's the table I built:
| Primal Drives | Satiation Drives | Self-Image Drives | Resource Drives | Empathic Drives |
| Survival | Sex | Companionship | Wealth | Retribution |
| Safety | Fun | Belonging | Power | Duty |
| Freedom | Relaxation | Respect | Knowledge | Compassion |
Of these 15 drives, Mari's work would have satisfied twelve. She made a rational trade, sacrificing the minority of her desires for the majority of them.
However, spending twenty years unable to satisfy your needs to genuinely care for someone, belong to someone, or even just relax... That leaves scars.
And that's why Mari is having her breakdown now. It's because after twenty years as the Heartbreaker, she's finally been offered something to care about and belong to, somewhere where she could actually almost relax for a moment.
And then she was told that she was hurting the ones who gave her that by her mere association with them. That she was the source of all their grief and heartbreak, that she is a monster.
That blow landed, and landed hard, because Mari believes that Compassion and Belonging are diametrically opposed to Power and Safety. She's been taught that caring about people makes you exploitable.
Therefore the fact that we care about her is incontrovertible evidence that she's harming and weakening us, just as it was evidence of that for every single one of her past targets.
Therefore her caring about us is a flaw that she ought to be ashamed of.
Therefore when we order her to act on our behalf as clan leader, she goes, answering her Duty - but not when we beg and plead with her personally, using Belonging and Respect.
(In fact, I would model the result of Hana's intervention as the Trauma "I'm not worthy of Respect", making that Drive a negative modifier in any situation where it applied.)
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- Location
- Italy
Good analysis, even if i find myself in conflict on few points.
Well, to be fair she let the team in, so while she's scared of intimacy, she is also desperate for human contact.
On this i disagree, there is nothing rational about Mari actions, she just tried to protect herself from her trauma by taking control, then crossed so many lines with her uncle that she just...went even deeper to forget it.
Remember, it's not her job that Mari hates, and other social Jonin are not like her, it's what she did while NOT on the job that she consider unforgivable.
Also, she consider herself a monster, that is not the behavior of someone that knew what he/she/it was doing(For an example of such, there is Ryuugamine "I don't need emotions" Mori)
Disagree on this too, she never shown shame for loving her team(Nor insulted other people for caring about others), but quite the opposite, she saw it as the example she's not completely without hope, until Hana i mean.
She quite explicitly admires people like Hana, that are good and proud and love people sincerely, unlike her. She also quite explicitly thinks she's incapable of doing so, at least post-Hana
This is important, because treating Mari as someone that has a different views on relationships is going to end...poorly(Even if it's true, at least party), because Mari problem is not that she has different opinions on how relationships works(Ex.Intimacy is bad), but she has mistaken opinions on herself(I am incapable of truly loving Uplift).
Opinions that we are not going to change, let's be clear on that, not at the start, we need to act...on another road.
Well, to be fair she let the team in, so while she's scared of intimacy, she is also desperate for human contact.
On this i disagree, there is nothing rational about Mari actions, she just tried to protect herself from her trauma by taking control, then crossed so many lines with her uncle that she just...went even deeper to forget it.
Remember, it's not her job that Mari hates, and other social Jonin are not like her, it's what she did while NOT on the job that she consider unforgivable.
Also, she consider herself a monster, that is not the behavior of someone that knew what he/she/it was doing(For an example of such, there is Ryuugamine "I don't need emotions" Mori)
Disagree on this too, she never shown shame for loving her team(Nor insulted other people for caring about others), but quite the opposite, she saw it as the example she's not completely without hope, until Hana i mean.
She quite explicitly admires people like Hana, that are good and proud and love people sincerely, unlike her. She also quite explicitly thinks she's incapable of doing so, at least post-Hana
This is important, because treating Mari as someone that has a different views on relationships is going to end...poorly(Even if it's true, at least party), because Mari problem is not that she has different opinions on how relationships works(Ex.Intimacy is bad), but she has mistaken opinions on herself(I am incapable of truly loving Uplift).
Opinions that we are not going to change, let's be clear on that, not at the start, we need to act...on another road.
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- Location
- Yes.
Several solutions, which may or may not work.
- Murder.
- Mind control.
- Feed her issues to a grue.
- Ask Tsunade, and follow her advice.
- Ask Akane, and follow her advice.
- Keep her as is.
- Convince her that her philosophy is flawed.
- Convince her to teach us how to see manipulations to the point where she couldn't plausibly manipulate us.
- Sic the Yananaka on her.
Ooh, yes please.
- Location
- Italy
Aside from praying you mean? Well...
First let's analyze Mari problems:
A)She hates herself, deeply.
B)She consider herself incapable of not manipulating people.
C)She consider herself fundamentally irrecoverable.
These are not things we can change, first of all, we lack the expertise, second of all, even if we could, it needs a person that actually listen to what you're saying, and Mari will not.
Uhm, just an idea...
We need to
1)Give her a reason to not give up on herself
2)Give her a reason to change
3)Hope/Give her a reason to try changing.
And hope that with time she will come to resolve her problems with our help.
We can use our bond as a family for the 1 and 2, the image of an happy family for 3, then use Uplift as an example that it's not really important if changing herself is impossible, is still something she needs to try because there are some fight someone needs to fight, impossible or not.
It could help, or it could push her closer to suicide, because she feel she's being a problem for her family, if it works it would make the family the center of her life, and that's good (less suicidal) and bad(Consider her family everything), but it would be a step in the right direction.
Just and idea.
Problem is, if we do so, we risk losing Social!Mari.
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Yup.
Yes and yes. Elemental clones can use jutsu of their own element and non-elemental jutsu.
The Aburame are able to create bug clones1 and the Kotsuzui clan are able to produce blood clones. There might be others as well, but those are the ones I can think of offhand.
And were able to do so well before a certain irrational fiction entirely driven by a Hate Plague became popular.
They do have clothes and gear, yes. Seals and other chakra-enabled equipment are non-functional and not perfect copies.
- Location
- Yes.
@eaglejarl @Velorien @OliWhail How are things with modeling the MfD economy, and is there anything we can do to help?
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
We have a spreadsheet and a lot of discussion. We should bounce it off one or more players to validate. Assuming that's all correct we should straightforwardly be able to determine the facts of the mortgage.
But how soooooN?
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
TaliesinSkye
Occasional Editor
- Location
- Northeast Ohio, United States
Breaking hearts isn't a great thing to do, but I omitted it because I don't really put it in the class of the evil sorts of hurting people I had in mind. The major examples of that that she engaged in were the premeditated murder of her uncle and the people she hurt on missions, many of them innocent. She felt her uncle deserved it, and the people she hurt or killed on missions she arguably didn't have much of a choice about. Yagura and Mist's system for dealing with ninja who didn't follow orders was quite brutal.
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Question for the room. The following was posted a bit ago, although I'm afraid I've lost the poster's name:
Which two summoners were y'all thinking of?
Which two summoners were y'all thinking of?
I assumed the pangolin and toad given that they have embassies with each other?
- Location
- Pacific standard
Question for the QMs, did Keiko send that missive to the Snakes regarding the alliance relying on 3 Goketsu summoners?
I know pretty much everyone present approved when we gave the order, but I dont know if Keiko's (admittedly understandable) angst prevented that from being sent.
I know pretty much everyone present approved when we gave the order, but I dont know if Keiko's (admittedly understandable) angst prevented that from being sent.
The Seventh Path Infodump part 2
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Hazō,
I've got about five minutes before we're into the next strategy session and I'm trying to figure out what would be most useful to you. The one that's coming to mind is Seventh Path stuff; probably not the best choice -- money would probably be more useful -- but this the one that I'm thinking of and that I can write down quickly.
This shouldn't be important, since once I come home I can just tell you all this stuff directly. Still, it's always possible that the Sage's Brother (Dummy, right? :)) will be there and sneeze me out of existence. How likely is that, though?
The Seventh Path is big, with at least one major island (Snakes and Boars) and a scattering of small ones. The sky above each area shows who lives under it. Everything we care about -- Toads, Monkeys, Pangolins, Condors, etc -- is on the east side.
Arachnids
Never met them or know anyone who has, but they're feared.
Bear
Big, powerful, generally friendly to everyone. Decent in water.
Boars
On the big island off the coast of Turtle, west of the Snakes.
Capybara
Shit fighters, great spies and infiltrators (calming aura). Territory is the SEmost on the continent, Turtle/Otter/Toad in left-to-right arc on northern border.
Cat
Stealth, powerful combatants, great at night. Huge territory in the middle of the continent. They call themselves the 'Feline' Clan, but only call them that to their face. Everyone else calls them Cats. The Leopards broke off a few generations ago, apparently over some weird ideology thing that I never really understood, but all other cats are here. Total jackasses. Loners, work poorly or not at all in groups, think they're above everyone to a degree that makes the pangolins look cuddly. Vicious. Vaguely psychopathic. Fuck 'em.
Condor
Summoner is a woman from Bird country (ironic, huh?), don't know her name. Currently under the dominion of the Pangolins, except for a small resistance led by the boss, Conjura. He's known for space/time jutsu.
Crow
Summoner is Uchiha Itachi so that's a thing. Fighters, sages, fliers, but pretty much under his thumb. They're way off to the west, southern side of the continent.
Crustacean
My info is sketchy. Powerful combatants -- massive armor, powerful attacks. Mostly in the water and, like all the ocean clans, their territory is...fluid. (See what I did there?) They mostly take the depths, while the Krakens take the midlevel and the Sharks take the top.
Dog
Summoner Hatake Kakashi. One for every purpose -- powerful combatant, great tracker, good tunnel fighter, etc. Very loyal, work well in packs, not as stuck up as some of the other clans. Don't tell Kakashi I said any of that or I'll beat you with a fish.
Dragon
Dunno if these are actually real or if the Toads are pulling my leg.
Hare
They exist, that's all I know.
Hyena
Adjacent to the Pangolins on their west. Dunno much; they're a long way from the Toads, and there's a mountain range or two in the way.
Kraken
Intelligence, color-shifting, ink, tool users. Can fight on land but not great at it. Hit them with dehydration attacks.
Leopard
Split off from the Cats a while back, moved well east. Pangolins are adjacent to the
Mara
Summoner: Grandmaster F of Cloud's Raiyoke clan. Don't screw with her, she's terrifying. Used to be allies of the Capybaras, split two generations ago; dunno why. Masters of temptation, subversion, misdirection. Shit fighters. Toads have been on neutral terms for decades, but there's a kill-on-sight order for any Mara found in Toad territory. They're on the coast, stuck between Toad (S), Pangolin (W), and Monkey (N). Bad place to be, if you ask me.
Monkey
Summoner
Technology, speed, agility, nasty martial artists, some weird-ass jutsu that Sensei never told me much about because he was an asshole and I'm the only one who gets to say that so don't try it or I'll...do something. I dunno. Fuck, I don't have the energy. Figure out a good threat and threaten yourself with it.
Otter
Technology, smart, works well in water or on land. NW of the Toads, between them and Pangolins.
Pangolin
Summoner: my badass daughter, Gōketsu Keiko. I think we all know everything we need to.
Porcupine
Extremely strong defense. Good ranged attacks by throwing their quills. Slow-moving. North of the Monkeys.
Raptor
Dunno much about them. They're off to the west somewhere. Presumably they fly, so that says something.
Rat
Neighbors of the Pangolins, probably about to be conquered. They're on the Pangolins' southern border, stuck between Leopard and Slug, touching Turtle at the northmost edge.
Shark
Summoner: Hoshigaki Kisame, inherited from his father who had it back in my day. Stay the fuck away from them in the water. I'm not sure, but I think they're not on great terms with the Krakens, whose territory is the mid-layer ocean (below the Sharks).
Skunk
They will literally fart you to death. Decent close-in combatants too, although not so much as some species. Comparatively slow. Somewhere west of the Pangolins.
Slug
Summoner: Auntie Sunny, and you absolutely must call her that next time you see her. Ideally when I'm nearby with a bowl of popcorn. Friendly with the Toads but not explicitly allied. Otherwise keep to themselves. Everyone agrees that their borders have never changed in the entire history of the Seventh Path, but no one wants to talk about why.
Snake
Summoner: Cute lil Oro, my psycho baby brother in arms. They suck.
Tapir
They exist, probably.
Toad
Summoner: The mighty Gōketsu Jiraiya, Grandmaster of the Ninja Arts, Utter Badass, Supreme Enlightened Master of Lovemaking, World's Best-Selling Author, and all around great guy. Wicked badass fighters, all kinds of crazy smart, the best summon in existence. Play your cards right, little Hazō, and maybe someday I will grant you the tremendous honor of meeting them.
Turtle
Summoner: Maito Gai. Utterly insane defenses and, ironically, super fast via lightning jutsu. Terrifying combatants, but very slow-moving and calm in their daily life. Their territory is between Slug and Otter, touching Pangolin on the north and meeting at a point with Rat. There's a lot of rivers in their territory, including a big N/S one running from top to bottom, so the adjoining clans often pay for the privilege of moving through there if they need to meet/fight with someone else.
Politics:
Toads, Otters, Pangolins: Allied against the Condors. Pangolins have now conquered the Condors (and also much of the Hyenas and Leopards), so things might destabilize.
Monkeys, Porcupines: Friendly, trade, don't know if it's an official alliance. Monkeys are the big tool-makers for the area, so everyone tries to stay on their good side. There have been a couple attempts to conquer them but it's usually given up as a bad job. They've got crazy natural defenses and they make amazing gorilla fighters. (You better appreciate my brilliance or I'll ground you.)
Then there's the alliance between the Leopards,
Okay, they're calling the next meeting, need to go. I'll finish this after I get home.
Your ████ father,
Jiraiya
Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
