Eisenhelm
gran dutch of douchery
- Location
- Colombia
was it my signature? i have seen you around in other quests like divided loyalties
lets glue proximity triggered directional tags all over Hazou, he will be safe one way or another.
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
- Start date
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- Tags
- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
- Location
- Book Fort
- Pronouns
- They/Them
I do think Kei's being more than a little uncharitable towards Mari, but I will also acknowledge that Kei (in her mind) has sufficient cause to come to the conclusions that she has.
My main issue with Kei's behavior wrt Mari is that Kei isn't giving Mari a chance. Kei also refuses to listen to Hazou about Mari, and doesn't engage with his perspective on anything than a surface level --and even then, it's to dismiss it.
"Mari is obviously such a good social spec that she should've seen my discomfort, that Hazou is corrupted and thus not worth seriously considering, that Mari was able to dance Orochimaru to her tune, and that any attempt to apologize or connect with me isn't rooted in emotional vulnerability, but is a blatant attempt at manipulation. I should brush Mari with the same sins as my schoolyard bullies and neglect the nuance of Mari's situation. I should ignore the brokenness of the world that we seek to Uplift when factoring in the circumstances of Mari's moral character --even though my older sister, whom I worship, who is a also an I&S Jonin who suffered under Yagura like Mari did, who has committed similar transgressions against me, and is similar to Mari as-a-person."
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Maybe that's why Kei can't forgive Mari. Because engaging with Mari's history with any amount of critical thought means drawing the parallels between Mari and Ami. And Kei worships Ami the Flawless. So instead of confronting the fact that Ami is Just a Mere Mortal Being, Kei instead trivializes Mari to the point of dismissal --casting Mari as a silver-tongued, biblical temptress where the only way to win is to not engage. Because doing that is the only way Kei can retain her self-delusion regarding Ami.
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- Location
- Somewhere.
I don't think so, but I don't really recall.
Fuck, that's it. I mean. Not necessarily but I really do think it's by far the most likely way this thing happened.
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- Location
- Book Fort
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Maybe we can ask Noburi, Akane, and Kagome how to use this (possibly wrong) insight to help mend things.
- Location
- Yes.
Kagome.suggestion.
redzonejoe
Vaguely Pastafarian
- Location
- Canada
Speaking out of my ass for a moment and pretending I know anything about anything...
Words won't bridge the gap. Logic can at best put a metaphorical bandaid over a large gaping emotional wound.
Kei can't rationalize her way into forgiving Mari, possibly ever. Kei won't (and shouldn't) forget what happened. If you can't forgive or forget, what is left? Moving forward, and moving on.
The way I see it, the only possible way for Mari and Kei's relationship to be at all mended is for Keiko to look back and believe that the good memories and the various benefits of their relationship outweighs the damage done, and then to proceed forward accepting the inevitably of further damage.
... If she could do that, she wouldn't be as adamant about ending the relationship as she is. Therefore all we are left with is time, and the hope that the wounds once numbed will be obscured by better memories.
- Location
- Somewhere.
...Unrelated to any of the ongoing discussion, I would like to offer appreciation to the QMs on the way y'all've written the Maris, and the collective Ami, and Nara Kei and the Snowflakes, and...well, there's not a lot of people who'd do that at all, let alone as well as you have.
Related to the ongoing discussion...mmm. "There is no such thing as perfection"? There's this...feeling that Kei treats Mari as the Perfect Manipulator, leaving aside, uh...the absolutely codependent (or just...dependent) Kei|Ami thing. Given that golden-child/scapegoat pattern, it's amazing that that turned out even a tenth as well as it did, but...anyway. That's not something to touch with a forty-nine and a half foot pole, let alone a Hazo.
Parting thought for y'all. Going to go crash.
Related to the ongoing discussion...mmm. "There is no such thing as perfection"? There's this...feeling that Kei treats Mari as the Perfect Manipulator, leaving aside, uh...the absolutely codependent (or just...dependent) Kei|Ami thing. Given that golden-child/scapegoat pattern, it's amazing that that turned out even a tenth as well as it did, but...anyway. That's not something to touch with a forty-nine and a half foot pole, let alone a Hazo.
Parting thought for y'all. Going to go crash.
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- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Welcome to the head of the thread. @TheBiggerFish . Pleasure to have you with us.
- Location
- how about no
As @apooooop noted, the promise would be some far off day when the pain of the sacrifice is not as fresh. Losing a close relationship like Kei and Mari had could be considered equitable to experiencing the death of a loved one. Grief needs to run its course but time heals all wounds: the pain fades but the memories of love remain.
I'd say we should revisit discussing reconciliation between the two no sooner than a month IC, if not later. They each have enough responsibilities to keep themselves occupied and I trust both of them to be mature enough to work together in the face of crisis so long as Mari does not have a position of authority over Kei.
(underlines mine)
We have a lot of goodwill from Kei for helping her overcome many of her childhood complexes (for lack of a better word). She trusts Hazou more than anyone to be able to find new ways to address seemingly insurmountable obstacles. Giving her a quick speech reaffirming that Hazou wants to help her grow as a person while not forcing her to regress to the point of considering herself a tool would be the best immediate course of action once we can vote again.
Kei struggles with her self image and worth because from her point of view, everyone, besides Hazou, has treated her purely, coldly rationally and emotionally she cannot take it anymore. She is still a person, even if her creativity has been locked away behind the Frozen Skein all of her life. Now, however, she finally has new memories of daring to dream, courtesy of Snowflake et al. and how those thoughts filter through Kei's bloodline.
If Kei's personal coping mechanisms prove to insufficient to reassure her, perhaps we can call upon Ino, best blonde bride so Kei can have a bit of counseling and/or mind soothing techniques used on her.
Hazou himself is in desperate need of some Ino R&R too. Once the next update is over I'd love it if we have Hazou do three things:
- Sleep
- Hang out with Ino and Akane with puppies to further lower stress
- Read history books in both the Leaf library and the Nara library
Noumero
Omit Needless Words
Hot take regarding the Mari vs. Kei debacle:
Kei is right 100%.
To start off, does it not seem surprising to you that sacrificing Kei was Mari's go-to strategy? Yes, there are all sorts of rationalizations for why that decision made sense given the specific situation. But does it not seem oddly coincidental that the end result of Mari's panicked problem-solving was her using the person she's currently in conflict with as bait?
I don't think she did that to get Kei killed in some revenge plot, no. But it does mean that, when the tactic of distracting Oro with Kei occurred to her, she didn't immediately reject it as unacceptable and kept looking for alternatives, but instead decided that that was good enough. And one step down that line of thought was a better, and more selfless, alternative: a wholesale lie.
Instead of leading Oro on a wild goose chase after a secret that actually existed, Mari could've instead invented some complete bullshit and led him in circles while Hazou ran.
I think Kei's construction of the situation is spot-on and her feelings are fully justified. There's nothing to "fix", because the current state of affairs is correct.
Kei is right 100%.
To start off, does it not seem surprising to you that sacrificing Kei was Mari's go-to strategy? Yes, there are all sorts of rationalizations for why that decision made sense given the specific situation. But does it not seem oddly coincidental that the end result of Mari's panicked problem-solving was her using the person she's currently in conflict with as bait?
I don't think she did that to get Kei killed in some revenge plot, no. But it does mean that, when the tactic of distracting Oro with Kei occurred to her, she didn't immediately reject it as unacceptable and kept looking for alternatives, but instead decided that that was good enough. And one step down that line of thought was a better, and more selfless, alternative: a wholesale lie.
Instead of leading Oro on a wild goose chase after a secret that actually existed, Mari could've instead invented some complete bullshit and led him in circles while Hazou ran.
- What she was doing in that scene already relied on her ability to lie to Oro's face (regarding the IN), so her choices weren't restricted to secret capabilities we actually did possess.
- It would've placed more risk on her, as Oro might've later learned that the capability was made-up, but:
- If the lie was well-constructed, he wouldn't have figured it out in the moment, meaning that the day would've ended the same way (Hazou escapes, Mari gets Aura'd).
- Unless Mari actually thought that Oro eating Kei was acceptable, any next-day plan would've relied on not letting Oro get his hands on the "secret capability" anyway, so whether or not it was real shouldn't have mattered.
- I'm not saying Mari should've had to sacrifice herself, but if she had a choice between herself and Kei, and chose to sacrifice Kei... Well, I think it's understandable that Kei would dislike that.
I think Kei's construction of the situation is spot-on and her feelings are fully justified. There's nothing to "fix", because the current state of affairs is correct.
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- Location
- The Void
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Ultimately we are arguing about how people feel and how they are perceived by each other. They where both right and wrong at the same time. More importantly there is no fixing this. There's no brilliant plan to write that magically changes Kei and Mari. They booth need to keep growing and changing. This is a thing of months and years. All we can do is be a friend and support them as they walk this path
- Location
- The state of Paranoia
Speaking of which, how is it that Ami herself was unable to convince her own clan to be decent human beings to Kei? Like, it's not like she was trying to convince them to betray the village or something, this is just the bare minimum.
Is it some kind of deepseated cultural thing for the Mori, that they have to raise their children in an abusive way? Even then, she should have only had to convince her parents, not the entire clan. I would have thought that someone like Ami would be able to do that.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I'm not sure Ami really had the skills to do so until the last few years and by then habits are very hard to break. Even harder still are habits reinforced by very toxic traditions, both from the Clan's culture and from Mist itself. And by the time she really became aware of all this and Kei was already fucked up, Ami probably just wrote her parents off entirely (we've seen that she doesn't even consider them her parents anymore, really)
I've been thinking about Kei's thought process lately.. and I know Snowflake and the sisters are cognitively separate from her, but they do have similar patterns of thought. Could this be a case of being in a mental echo chamber of sorts? A subtle mallus she might get with her version of SC. It could lead to certain viewpoints being doubly reinforced.
If this is the case we might need to stage an intervention to help her see other perspectives. But fragile as things are, this could go very badly..
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- Location
- The Void
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Let's be honest Kei does not have the best mental model of how people actually see her. She's depressed and just generally fucked up enough that she could have interpreted vague indifference as hatred.
- Location
- Book Fort
- Pronouns
- They/Them
[Screams]
- Location
- Yes.
[X] Armageddon Initiative
- Location
- The Void
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Just a continuation of Papers plan
[X] Action Plan: Not A Date
[X] Action Plan: Not A Date
- Shikamaru:
- Thank him for his political acuity and willingness to stake his clan for Leaf's best interests
- Check that he's okay after being subjected to Tsunade and Orochimaru's killing intent.
- Is there anything we, as Lord Gouketsu or as a friend, can do to repay him?
- Offer to Summon the lower-energy puppies.
- Hopefully less "bowl him over" and more "lie on his chest while being slowly petted".
- Hinata:
- Invite her to an instance of two individuals spending a few hours together in order to facilitate greater mutual knowledge and familiarity, arranged in anticipation of a potential long-term (political) relationship.
- Perhaps tea at the Yabai Cafe.
- Thank her for her help in the Council -- she's very astute.
- Keep conversation light. Ask after the tea, her teammates, the architecture. Avoid asking about family too much (because of lots of recent fatalities).
- Offer to Summon the puppies.
- Invite her to an instance of two individuals spending a few hours together in order to facilitate greater mutual knowledge and familiarity, arranged in anticipation of a potential long-term (political) relationship.
- (Offscreen) misc:
- Request Jashin's holy symbol back, since Hidan might return. Start carrying stored top-quality peppermint tea for a delaying tactic.
- Review the information gathered from the Rock facility to start planning strategic next steps.
- Ask Hornets if they have a Summon Scroll.
- Check if Hornets/Arachnids are ready to operate seals.
- Inform Asuma about the Bear Summoner's situation.
- Ask Kagome to review his summoner training notes.
- Location
- Europe
Mari confirmed Uzumaki!?
That's the really bad one. Kind of a weird way to say thank you.
Also, Yabai literally means bad in japanese.
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- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Phew, finally caught up.
Cantelope. Cantilever was his girlfriend.
😊 Thank you very much, I'm flattered.
- Location
- Book Fort
- Pronouns
- They/Them
[x] Action Plan: Puppies, Power, and the Power of Puppies
Word Count: 358
Word Count: 358
- Cannai
- How're the Dogs doing? Need assistance? Should be healed in a few weeks.
- We've mulled over Cannai's poem, and have some questions.
- The poem claims the Sage went 'beyond the trees' to rest, and that 'truth or death' could lead to him.
- Did he go to the Naraka Path? We might've seen those trees once...
- Sage also left 'seven rocks with seven locks' and the Great Seal is, basically, a giant lock made of rock. There're seven paths... are there six more Great Seals somewhere?
- What does Cannai know about the other Paths?
- Who're the Lost Ones? Does this refer to the Sage's Five companions Cannai mentioned?
- Is Jashin a Lost One? Has Cannai heard of Jashin before?
- Verbal Description: cult's symbol is an upside-down triangle inside a circle.
- Trees made of Iron or Stone? Are those supposed to be buildings? Why is their shade dangerous? Is it because the Lost Ones reside in them?
- The poem claims the Sage went 'beyond the trees' to rest, and that 'truth or death' could lead to him.
- Pantsā told Kei that the denizens of the Seventh Path absorb 'nature chakra' from it, which is why stronger denizens are harder to Summon. Jiraiya also told us draining a Summon could be dangerous. Is nature chakra toxic to humans? Would Hazou get sick from staying here too long? Mareo seems to have managed it.
- Jiraiya said that Nature Chakra is dangerous for humans, but not for denizens of 7th Path. Y'all can use your non-human-standard elements just fine on the Human Path (which doesn't have nature chakra). Can Humans use Nature Chakra?
- Kumokōgō:
- we know how human path chakra interacts with seals, but we're less sure on nature chakra.
- Minor seals have been fine, but when stabilizing something like the Great Seal, "fine" isn't enough...
- Do you have any way of sensing/interacting with Nature Chakra?
- Yuno
- Celebrate Birthday
- (Offscreen)
- Hidan:
- Request Jashin's holy symbol back (Hidan might return)
- Start carrying high-quality, sealed peppermint tea (delay tactic)
- make everyday carry
- Review information gathered from the Rock facility.
- Kagome: please review Summoning notes
- 7th Path
- Ask Hornets if they have a Summon Scroll.
- Have Hornets/Arachnids finished learning how to operate seals?
- Inform Asuma about the Mareo's situation.
- Hidan:
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- Location
- Book Fort
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Yeah, even Hazou-pilot initially swore (internally) at the situation, thinking "if only Mari confided in Kei just once."
