*Grumble grumble*

Fine, we'll just have to find some more. We should bring Kagome along this time because we might meet Deidara and he'd never forgive us if he missed it.
 
I have no idea how I ended up tasked with inventing anarchic totalitarianism, yet I am certain that it can only end in tears...

"Your farmer's market co-op has too much hierarchy! You are sentenced to shunning until you complete six weeks in the voluntary gulag!"
"Defund the ANBU!"

Fuck the anbu comin straight from the underneath
A young ninja got it bad for his beliefs
 
Also, there appear to be two unassigned summoning scrolls. It might be wise to make some recommendations to Asuma. The trade network gets more valuable on the human side with distance, and given their current military capacity Sand would likely pay through the nose for a summoner while still being grateful. On top of that, the Wakahisa are the third richest clan in Mist and have a bit of a complex about being considered rear echelon instead of combat, plus, there might be quite a few Mist powers who would like an alternative and counterbalance if the Mori were perceived as suddenly having gained international influence. That would also be extremely inconvenient to the Mori leadership, which is good for Keiko and thus something to bring up with Ami.
It has been repeatedly pointed out, both in thread and in story, that we should not be making any political plays involving Leaf summoning scrolls. Goketsu summoning scrolls that we find are fair game, but holy cow we should absolutely never consider giving them to other nations because a) the trade network is mostly for summon clans, and we wouldn't be able to exchange goods quickly with another village, and b) despite treason being a meme, I would like to avoid it and this seems like a fairly obvious way to commit it.

"Oh don't worry Asuma, I realize we might not be in an alliance with Sand, but I saw the potential to make money for the Goketsu. What's the benefit for Leaf? Oh, you get more taxes. This is just an isolated incident, right?"

(But wow can you imagine telling everyone how much effort we put in to win the contest for a single summoning scroll just to give 2 away to foreign villages?)

Also @Velorien @eaglejarl - can you confirm whether Ami not detecting the Wakahisa/Hazou assistance with her treason case was because the Wakahisa didn't do it, or because they were subtle about it and Ami didn't find out? I've seen both interpretations in the thread and I don't think this is something Hazou would let slip by.
 
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Also @Velorien @eaglejarl - can you confirm whether Ami not detecting the Wakahisa/Hazou assistance with her treason case was because the Wakahisa didn't do it, or because they were subtle about it and Ami didn't find out? I've seen both interpretations in the thread and I don't think this is something Hazou would let slip by.
How would Hazō know about the presence or absence of private negotiations taking place in Mist, doubly so if Ami herself didn't?
 
It has been repeatedly pointed out, both in thread and in story, that we should not be making any political plays involving Leaf summoning scrolls. Goketsu summoning scrolls that we find are fair game, but holy cow we should absolutely never consider giving them to other nations because a) the trade network is mostly for summon clans, and we wouldn't be able to exchange goods quickly with another village, and b) despite treason being a meme, I would like to avoid it and this seems like a fairly obvious way to commit it.

"Oh don't worry Asuma, I realize we might not be in an alliance with Sand, but I saw the potential to make money for the Goketsu. What's the benefit for Leaf? Oh, you get more taxes. This is just an isolated incident, right?"

(But wow can you imagine telling everyone how much effort we put in to win the contest for a single summoning scroll just to give 2 away to foreign villages?)

Also @Velorien @eaglejarl - can you confirm whether Ami not detecting the Wakahisa/Hazou assistance with her treason case was because the Wakahisa didn't do it, or because they were subtle about it and Ami didn't find out? I've seen both interpretations in the thread and I don't think this is something Hazou would let slip by.

Sand is an official, long-term ally. Leaf has gone out of its way to secure favorable transit rights in intervening nations in order to trade with them.

Mist is an old enemy, but relations have thawed since the so very unfortunate early demise of Yagura and Leaf is trying to build a Sand-type relationship with them if for no other reason than it is the only way Leaf survives the imminent world war.

What stops the human path participants from trading as quickly and easily as the 7th path?

Summoning scrolls are immensely valuable, which is precisely why allied nations would pay through the nose for them and still consider it a meaningful gift for generations. Precisely the sort of thing which cements relationships and reinforces Leaf's reputation as a team player. Hey, what does Leaf have a comparative surplus of?

The likely ignition point of the imminent world war is Mist's subversion of Hot Springs, which gives them the power to cut Lightning off from desperately needed food imports. Right now their long-term calculus favors surprise preemptive invasion coordinated with Rock. Give their summoners an uninterruptible trade route straight to three of the four other great powers*, plus whatever minor powers have scrolls, and hey, perhaps we don't have to have a world war at all.


*Fuck Rock. I haven't had time sit down and get really evil, but I will.
 
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If Ami wants to be a Leaf ninja and get SC, then I want her in the Clan and secret Lore.

We can just marry another Mori girl and adopt Ami into Goketsu. Maybe that would convince the Mori that their secrets will be safe from other Leaf clans.


Jiraiya,really wanted that alliance:

"So in short. Pros of the marriage: we get the girl. We strengthen the alliance. We don't have to spend so much effort wrestling with the Nara. We get influence over Mist politics. We drive Ren mad.

"Cons of the marriage: we get the girl. We're locked into the alliance. We have to spend effort wrestling with the Mori. They get influence over Leaf politics. Having to work with Ryūgamine will drive me mad."

That way we can annoy Ren and talk with Ryu! Yay!

"Oh don't worry Asuma, I realize we might not be in an alliance with Sand, but I saw the potential to make money for the Goketsu. What's the benefit for Leaf? Oh, you get more taxes. This is just an isolated incident, right?"

We could just put it on a vote with the Clan council if we aquire a scroll or just to work together with them.
 
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How would Hazō know about the presence or absence of private negotiations taking place in Mist, doubly so if Ami herself didn't?
Keiko mentioned it, but didn't clarify. HDK is unfortunately what I was expecting.

I really think we should focus on the Wakahisa deal again. We still don't have the koi, and I don't know if Ami detecting nothing is a sign of subtlety when she has AMI - at the very least, we should bring this up with Mari as our Yasuji contact.

Also, @Lailoken, @ContextBot, I really feel you're ignoring the part where Mari said we should make no moves on the summoning scrolls at all, and where we spent all the effort in the contest for one scroll (think of what the other prizes were). Putting aside the interpersonal things where Akane and maybe Haru would probably be hurt, giving the other nations more military might is not likely to stop a war. In fact, I remember some of Hazou's actions being predicated on making sure Leaf wins the war as quickly as possible.

(For the sake of completeness: alliances are fluid because there's no reason not to break them if something changes - see the recent discussion about Ami; I'm not sure what Sand and Mist even have that would be a worth a summoning scroll, especially since they're both super low or out of jonin; they can't trade because the model I wrote 700 words on and an in-story reference to Neji talked about making daily pickups of trade goods in Leaf, which are more than a day away from Sand and Mist, let alone the security implications of letting a summoner inside so often they begin to get trusted; and Ami almost got killed in Mist for giving us the Condor scroll.)

If you truly don't see how suggesting we give a scroll away is treason (for similar reasons you could argue we should've given away skywalkers, but that would've been treason too), I think we're working from vastly different preconceptions. I'm precommiting to not voting for plans that have us even bring this up unless it's Keiko and Mari so they can tell us how treasonous this is and it won't damage their opinion of us more.
 
(For the sake of completeness: alliances are fluid because there's no reason not to break them if something changes - see the recent discussion about Ami; I'm not sure what Sand and Mist even have that would be a worth a summoning scroll, especially since they're both super low or out of jonin; they can't trade because the model I wrote 700 words on and an in-story reference to Neji talked about making daily pickups of trade goods in Leaf, which are more than a day away from Sand and Mist, let alone the security implications of letting a summoner inside so often they begin to get trusted; and Ami almost got killed in Mist for giving us the Condor scroll.)

A summoner doesn't have to be in Leaf if they can situate summon ambassadors in each other territory. For Hazo, this is not practical because of a lack of direct territorial border in the 7th path. But if a summon borders a Leaf aligned summon, that's not an issue.

A summoner need not be a jounin, just someone we can trade with.
If you truly don't see how suggesting we give a scroll away is treason (for similar reasons you could argue we should've given away skywalkers, but that would've been treason too), I think we're working from vastly different preconceptions. I'm precommiting to not voting for plans that have us even bring this up unless it's Keiko and Mari so they can tell us how treasonous this is and it won't damage their opinion of us more.

If it's the summon scrolls that the clan to acquire and didn't give to Leaf, that's less dangerous than scrolls that's owned solely by Leaf.
 
Voting is closed.
Adhoc vote count started by eaglejarl on Aug 15, 2020 at 12:01 PM, finished with 155 posts and 15 votes.
 
Y'know, Ami doesn't have to defect to Leaf.

She could marry in. In fact, under the new laws she could now just mistress in, which she might well prefer given her desire for independence.

The voting clan Goeketsu could become a precedent-setting lifeline between vital new allies during a dreadfully unstable time with the very first intervillage relationship. It might even be possible to rope Sand into it. Do we know anybody in Sand who might be interested?


Also, there appear to be two unassigned summoning scrolls. It might be wise to make some recommendations to Asuma. The trade network gets more valuable on the human side with distance, and given their current military capacity Sand would likely pay through the nose for a summoner while still being grateful. On top of that, the Wakahisa are the third richest clan in Mist and have a bit of a complex about being considered rear echelon instead of combat, plus, there might be quite a few Mist powers who would like an alternative and counterbalance if the Mori were perceived as suddenly having gained international influence. That would also be extremely inconvenient to the Mori leadership, which is good for Keiko and thus something to bring up with Ami.


Also, periodic reminder about the student exchange program and Noburi getting to see his sisters again.
Also it's clear that most ninja like Asuma doesn't really like inter village cooperation at al. The last time we suggested something like that got us on bad terms with him :V

Edit : Very well let me break it

[X] Flashback to Hazou's birthday
 
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plans that have us even bring this up unless it's Keiko and Mari so they can tell us how treasonous this is and it won't damage their opinion of us more.
Just a reminder that Keiko actively participated in our contacting Itachi. In fact it would have been impossible without her cooperation.

The fact that she was never shown to suffer any consequences is one of the major writing failures And have with the quest
 
I really feel you're ignoring the part where Mari said we should make no moves on the summoning scrolls at all

No:

Hazō fought down another yawn. "One more topic, then I'm done. The Porcupine Scroll: Is there any way we can ensure that it goes to one of our allies? Maybe if we—"

"No," Mari cut him off. "No, we are not going to do anything related to the Porcupine Scroll. We are on very thin ice with Asuma right now and we desperately need to avoid even potentially seeming like we're putting our own interests over those of Leaf. Let Asuma choose the person who will best wield the Scroll in service to the nation."

A suggestions that helps all of Leaf isn't treasonous, increasing the relatipnship/alliance between nation isn't the same thing as "giving it to our allies".

I'm not sure what Sand and Mist even have that would be a worth a summoning scroll,

Mist has Wakahisa and at least another jinchuriki, so making them actually care about the alliance isn't a bad idea.

and Ami almost got killed in Mist for giving us the Condor scroll
If you truly don't see how suggesting we give a scroll away is treason

Yes and I want to ask for permission to avoid exactly that, Ami even mentioned that:

"Tell me about it," Ami said. "If it had been me wearing the hat, I'd have spun it into an unprecedented example of inter-village cooperation, and maybe leaned on Leaf to reciprocate by lending out assets for use in Mist's own scroll hunt. Instead… ugh. It's like watching a child throw a tantrum because she's not good enough to play the game, only this child has a knife at your throat and the blood's already dripping."


unless it's Keiko and Mari

I agree that we should always ask Mari, but Keiko?

Last update she talked about ending the alliance so that her sister is safe. Keiko is as unreasonable as it gets, especially when her sister is involved.
 
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Also @Velorien @eaglejarl - can you confirm whether or not Ami not detecting the Wakahisa/Hazou assistance with her treason case was because the Wakahisa didn't do it, or because they were subtle about it and Ami didn't find out. I've seen both interpretations in the thread and I don't think this is something Hazou would let slip by.

[...] really think we should focus on the Wakahisa deal again. We still don't have the koi, and I don't know if Ami detecting nothing is a sign of subtlety when she has AMI - at the very least, we should bring this up with Mari as our Yasuji contact.

I'm okay with putting Yasuji's feet to the fire. He probably can't do anything about it, though. So at the very least, I'm down to get even with his clan (barring Noburi's sisters, they sound nice enough).

Also. Just for the record, while I agree that we should try to improve Leaf's relations with Mist (with Asuma's approval), I will not vote for any plan that has us giving a summoning scroll away to a different nation. I'll add a "no" section to my preferences list later, but rest assured that this will be on it.

A suggestions that helps all of Leaf isn't treasonous, increasing the relatipnship/alliance between nation isn't the same thing as "giving it to our allies".

Feel free to let me know if I'm wrong (I don't want to misunderstand your perspective, like that time I was confused about Noburi's intentions towards Yuno), but it sounds, to me, like you're saying that "if an action is a net benefit to Leaf, then it's not treasonous." I'd like to try and caution everyone against such a mindset. That's what led us to contacting the Akatsuki, getting in a killbox, and avoiding a Game Over by the skin of our teeth. I'd rather not see the quest end because we couldn't learn a lesson.

Besides, even if this idea doesn't seem as controversial, we should remember Asuma's reaction when Hazou proposed a trade system that included Rock (or was it Cloud?). Asuma became very angry at the idea of contributing towards their wealth, even if it would be a net benefit for Leaf. And Asuma would later state that he couldn't fathom how Hazou could even consider reaching out to the Akatsuki in the name of peace after they killed Hazou's father/lord, Jiraiya. Now, this is Mist, not Rock/Cloud, but this is also a Summoning Scroll, not some paltry amount of food/money.
 
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Feel free to let me know if I'm wrong (I don't want to misunderstand your perspective, like that time I was confused about Noburi's intentions towards Yuno), but it sounds, to me, like you're saying that "if an action is a net benefit to Lead, then it's not treasonous." I'd like to try and caution everyone against such a mindset. That's what led us to contacting the Akatsuki, getting in a killbox, and avoiding a Game Over by the skin of our teeth. I'd rather not see the quest end because we couldn't learn a lesson.

Besides, even if this idea doesn't seem as controversial, we should remember Asuma's reaction when Hazou proposed a trade system that included Rock (or was it Cloud?). Asuma became very angry at the idea of contributing towards their wealth, even if it would be a net benefit for Leaf. And Asuma would later state that he couldn't fathom how Hazou could even consider reaching out to the Akatsuki in the name of peace after the killed Hazou's father/lord, Jiraiya. Now, this is Mist, not Rock/Cloud, but this is also a Summoning Scroll, not some paltry amount of food/money.

There is a difference between trying to convince Asuma that sharing information about them or even giving a scroll to another nation, then just doing it.

Asuma was angry because Hazou went behind his (or better Hiashi's) back and did it without permission, not because he suggested it.

And don't ask me why Hazou talked about Rock and Cloud, the Plan even mentioned Mist:

Submit the idea of using Seventh Path for trade and communication.
  • Requires 2+ cooperating Clans. Each sends representatives to all other involved Clans, and gives representatives' contracts to their Summoner. This essentially connects all involved Clans and Summoners into one instant-travel network.
  • Linking all Leaf Scrolls this way would be good.
  • Does Mist have a Scroll? If yes, should we negotiate for involving them when we're there, for inter-village trade?
    • Teuchi implied he could obtain a Summoner's service; how likely is he to get them on board with this?
    • (Beforehand, determine what trade opportunities it'd create.)


I agree that It's important how we say or do things, which is why I quoted Ami. Selling it as helping an allied nation, negotiating things, etc. might actually work. I wouldn't even suggest giving them a scroll for free and if there isn't anything to exchange...we just keep it.
 
*shrug* Ok.

I don't even want to give anyone (besides perhaps Hana, who Asuma acutally wants as an Agent) a Scroll, I just pointed out that: Yes we can make the suggetion via the legal way of Hokage / Clan council.

Just to be clear.
 
I'm okay with putting Yasuji's feet to the fire. He probably can't do anything about it, though. So at the very least, I'm down to get even with his clan (barring Noburi's sisters, they sound nice enough).

Also. Just for the record, while I agree that we should try to improve Leaf's relations with Mist (with Asuma's approval), I will not vote for any plan that has us giving a summoning scroll away to a different nation. I'll add a "no" section to my preferences list later, but rest assured that this will be on it.



Feel free to let me know if I'm wrong (I don't want to misunderstand your perspective, like that time I was confused about Noburi's intentions towards Yuno), but it sounds, to me, like you're saying that "if an action is a net benefit to Leaf, then it's not treasonous." I'd like to try and caution everyone against such a mindset. That's what led us to contacting the Akatsuki, getting in a killbox, and avoiding a Game Over by the skin of our teeth. I'd rather not see the quest end because we couldn't learn a lesson.

Besides, even if this idea doesn't seem as controversial, we should remember Asuma's reaction when Hazou proposed a trade system that included Rock (or was it Cloud?). Asuma became very angry at the idea of contributing towards their wealth, even if it would be a net benefit for Leaf. And Asuma would later state that he couldn't fathom how Hazou could even consider reaching out to the Akatsuki in the name of peace after they killed Hazou's father/lord, Jiraiya. Now, this is Mist, not Rock/Cloud, but this is also a Summoning Scroll, not some paltry amount of food/money.

Nobody is proposing that we commit treason or any such notions, or giving the scroll unilaterally to Mist. If we get the council on it, we need to make it palatable to the clans in the first place, such that even Asuma have no choice but to approve it.

The usual 'scratch me and I'll scratch your' dealmaking won't work here, at least not alone. We need to genuinely convince them it's a good idea.

To start with, we need to convert Mist from a wayward ally based on tenuous trade and family relations to a staunch ally who will have our back.
 
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Asuma was angry because Hazou went behind his (or better Hiashi's) back and did it without permission, not because he suggested it.

I'm not sure I agree with your read on Asuma's motivations. I think that Asuma's anger was largely because Hazou ignored the Hokage's authority, but I think that Asuma was also angered and bewildered by the whole idea of even doing it.

I'm not sure that Asuma knows what to make of Hazou, honestly. On one hand, we preach Uplift and seek to protect the mudfoot civilians that most ninja don't give a second thought to. On the other hand, we casually talk about murdering foreign ninja for their summoning scrolls, plot behind the nth-Hokage's back to make peace with the international terrorist group filled exclusively with insane nuclear warheads right after they slaughter our father-figure, and then we also drop the occasional golden egg for Asuma to better Leaf with --trading adoption slots, for example.

Nobody is proposing that we commit treason or any such notions, or giving the scroll unilaterally to Mist. If we get the council on it, we need to make it palatable to the clans in the first place, such that even Asuma have no choice but to approve it.

To be honest, I'm not convinced it's a good idea.

---
Side note: how many of the anti-Hyuuga seals do we have left and how difficult would it be to reverse-engineer them, if we worked together with Kagome? They're a precious resource that we're not renewing. I feel like this project should be up there with "fix Noburi's barrel" in terms of importance --though of greater urgency, since Noburi's not slated to see a decline for another 5ish years, while we could run out of AH Seals within the next year or so.
 
I'm not sure I agree with your read on Asuma's motivations. I think that Asuma's anger was largely because Hazou ignored the Hokage's authority, but I think that Asuma was also angered and bewildered by the whole idea of even doing it.

I'm not sure that Asuma knows what to make of Hazou, honestly. On one hand, we preach Uplift and seek to protect the mudfoot civilians that most ninja don't give a second thought to. On the other hand, we casually talk about murdering foreign ninja for their summoning scrolls, plot behind the nth-Hokage's back to make peace with the international terrorist group filled exclusively with insane nuclear warheads right after they slaughter our father-figure, and then we also drop the occasional golden egg for Asuma to better Leaf with --trading adoption slots, for example.

Did we? All we were searching are for scrolls not owned by anyone. Keiko and her team were the ones who murdered a ninja for scroll, although their enemy was targeting her team as well.
To be honest, I'm not convinced it's a good idea.

Based on what, exactly? Ami, as a representative of Mist, literally gave Leaf a scroll in return for risking their jonin. Only reason Ami was threatened with death because she was viewed as a loose cannon from her kage.
 
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Did we? All we were searching are for scrolls not owned by anyone. Keiko and her team were the ones who murdered a ninja for scroll, although their enemy was targeting her team as well.
Sorry, I should have been more specific! I was referencing one of Hazou's first meetings with Asuma-as-Hokage, when he was asking about the legality of hunting down foreign/missing-nin Summoners. Asuma was surprised --because Hazou hadn't demonstrated that level of ruthlessness in front of him before --but was also agreeable to the idea.

Based on what, exactly? Ami, as a representative of Mist, literally gave Leaf a scroll in return for risking their jonin. Only reason Ami was threatened with death because she was viewed as a loose cannon from her kage.

A few of my reasons.
  • The Goketsu aren't very favored by Asuma anymore, and I'm reluctant to propose an idea that might have his wary caution turn into something darker.
    • It's already been mentioned that Hazou could justifiably be replaced by Keiko as the Goketsu clan head. And while that wouldn't be disastrous, I don't think that the immense amount of additional responsibility is something that Keiko would enjoy shouldering. She's already failing to juggle her familial bonds with the Gokestu --even if she's renewed her determination to change that, she only has so many spoons.
  • The allied nation has no reason to keep its word after receiving the scroll
    • The Summoning Clan may not necessarily even accept a Summoner. Summoners are useful to the Summoning Clans, but not necessary. This would make the entire trade agreement less effective, and would provide an excuse to back out of their side of the trade agreement.
    • The Mist's Waka... Wakash... Vampiric Dew Clan has already seemed to renege on our current trade deal, or is otherwise failing to keep their side of the agreement in a timely manner.
      • Is this exclusive to that specific clan? Or is this behavior indicative of a wider movement in Mist's internal politics?
  • We're giving up a valuable resource for a "maybe"
    • Mist seems to be a tenuous ally at best. If things sour later on, and this Summoning Scroll ends up being used against Leaf ninja, then the Goketsu are going to suffer for giving them such a weapon. Hazou is no Hashirama, who could tank that sort of blow to his reputation.
  • Giving the Summoning Scrolls to allied countries would be somewhat similar to Hashirama giving Bijuu away to other countries, but less effective.
    • I suspect that Hashirama's primary motivation for doing so --if, indeed, he ever even did this in MfD like he did in canon --was to give Leaf-favorable nations a weapon to wipe out any dissenting clans/micro-nations squatting within their respective boarders who didn't want to join up. This ensured that the nations who "succeeded" in transitioning to the Hidden Village Era were at least somewhat favorable to Leaf.
    • We don't have that issue.
  • It slaps other Goketsu clan members in the face
    • Akane might be satisfied with SC FOOM instead of becoming a Summoner, but what about Haru?
    • Might be the last straw, since Haru already feels like an outsider in our clan, alone in a group of friends. Giving the Scroll to Mist makes it seem like we value our old Village --the one that rejected us --more than we value Haru --someone whom we voluntarily chose and courted into joining our clan.
 
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