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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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RandomOTP said:
Sorry, I should have been more specific! I was referencing one of Hazou's first meetings with Asuma-as-Hokage, when he was asking about the legality of hunting down foreign/missing-nin Summoners. Asuma was surprised --because Hazou hadn't demonstrated that level of ruthlessness in front of him before --but was also agreeable to the idea.
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I don't remember that kind of conversation.

RandomOTP said:
A few of my reasons.
  • The Goketsu aren't very favored by Asuma anymore, and I'm reluctant to propose an idea that might have his wary caution turn into something darker.
    • It's already been mentioned that Hazou could justifiably be replaced by Keiko as the Goketsu clan head. And while that wouldn't be disastrous, I don't think that the immense amount of additional responsibility is something that Keiko would enjoy shouldering. She's already failing to juggle her familial bonds with the Gokestu --even if she's renewed her determination to change that, she only has so many spoons.
  • The allied nation has no reason to keep its word after receiving the scroll
    • The Summoning Clan may not necessarily even accept a Summoner. Summoners are useful to the Summoning Clans, but not necessary. This would make the entire trade agreement less effective, and would provide an excuse to back out of their side of the trade agreement.
    • The Mist's Waka... Wakash... Vampiric Dew Clan has already seemed to renege on our current trade deal, or is otherwise failing to keep their side of the agreement in a timely manner.
      • Is this exclusive to that specific clan? Or is this behavior indicative of a wider movement in Mist's internal politics?
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The whole point is to convince the council. If we convince the council, then Asuma won't think we are up to no good, because there would be broad consensus. It's not just the Goketsu's opinion.

Also, Tenuous ally will remain tenuous ally unless we convert said ally to someone with a stronger tie. Trust is required to make alliance works.

RandomOTP said:
  • It slaps other Goketsu clan members in the face
    • Akane might be satisfied with SC FOOM instead of becoming a Summoner, but what about Haru?
    • Might be the last straw, Haru already feel like an outsider in our clan, alone in a group of friends. Giving the Scroll to Mist makes it seem like we value our old home --the one that rejected us --more than we do Haru --someone we voluntarily chose and courted into joining our clan.
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If we have extra scroll leftover, then we should consider giving it to an ally. It doesn't have to be Mist. it could be Sand.
 
RandomOTP said:
    • It's already been mentioned that Hazou could justifiably be replaced by Keiko as the Goketsu clan head. And while that wouldn't be disastrous, I don't think that the immense amount of additional responsibility is something that Keiko would enjoy shouldering. She's already failing to juggle her familial bonds with the Gokestu --even if she's renewed her determination to change that, she only has so many spoons.
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I think you mean Noburi.

RandomOTP said:
  • I suspect that Hashirama's primary motivation for doing so --if, indeed, he ever even did this in MfD as he did in canon --was to give Leaf-allied nations a weapon to wipe out any dissenting clans/micro-nations squatting within their respective boarders who didn't want to join. This ensured that the nations who "succeeded" in transitioning to the Hidden Village Era were at least somewhat favorable to Leaf.
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Actually controlling nine (eight if Sand had it's own like in canon) of them could be pretty hard, maybe he decided to give them out in a controlled way instead of dealing with that mess.

Or he really didn't think hording power was necessary for Leaf at this point.

But, giving Mist a Scroll makes only sense if get something so substantial that them turning on us in the future is acceptable. The main problem is that we have almost no idea what's going on in Mist. If there is a Pro-Leaf faction, empowering them (with or without a scroll) is probably a good idea. If the Anti-Leaf faction would get a scroll, now that wouldn't be good.

But either Ami is already doing this or something else is going on. We can't make any good decisions without better intel and we wanted to go to Mist before sex cult island and it's been a while, maybe we should just send someone?
 
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ContextBot said:
We can't make any good decisions without better intel and we wanted to go to Mist before sex cult island and it's been a while, maybe we should just send someone?
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Maybe we could send Noburi and a group of totally-not-bodyguards? He could visit his sisters as an excuse to feel around for the political atmosphere while also subtly asking "where in the nine hells is your half of the trade agreement." He's smart enough that he could come up with plans and backup plans, especially if he ran them through Mari and Keiko for optimization.

Of course, I'd rather not send Mari or Keiko, themselves, with Noburi to Mist. It's a bad place with bad memories of bad habits for the both of them, and I'd rather not ask them to relive that and risk a backslide. Maybe we could send Haru and ask/pay Yuno to go with him? If Yuno doesn't want to meet his family, then we could always hire out a few ninja through the Tower to join Haru in guarding him. Or we could do that anyway, as a precautionary measure. And Haru going could also serve as a bonding experience between them, to help Haru feel less isolated within the clan.

---
Edit: Side note, what do you guys think about hiring jonin and special jonin to do guest lectures at the Academy? Most Jonin have at least one area of specialty, right? Stealth, tracking, seduction, etc. Well, what if they gave an hour lecture on their sphere of focus whenever the Academy covers the topic? It'd be an easy hour or two of their time, and they'd only have to actually interact with the children for about ten, fifteen minutes for a Q/A at the end.

I don't know how many would actually take the time to do that --it'd be a little like asking a mathematician to explain long division. But, the Will of Fire is still a thing, the Sinkhole Incident still has "village unity" in the forefront of people's minds, and Asuma might decide that he can spare a jonin once/twice a month for something like that.
 
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GlassOlive said:
Keiko mentioned it, but didn't clarify. HDK is unfortunately what I was expecting.

I really think we should focus on the Wakahisa deal again. We still don't have the koi, and I don't know if Ami detecting nothing is a sign of subtlety when she has AMI - at the very least, we should bring this up with Mari as our Yasuji contact.

Also, @Lailoken, @ContextBot, I really feel you're ignoring the part where Mari said we should make no moves on the summoning scrolls at all, and where we spent all the effort in the contest for one scroll (think of what the other prizes were). Putting aside the interpersonal things where Akane and maybe Haru would probably be hurt, giving the other nations more military might is not likely to stop a war. In fact, I remember some of Hazou's actions being predicated on making sure Leaf wins the war as quickly as possible.

(For the sake of completeness: alliances are fluid because there's no reason not to break them if something changes - see the recent discussion about Ami; I'm not sure what Sand and Mist even have that would be a worth a summoning scroll, especially since they're both super low or out of jonin; they can't trade because the model I wrote 700 words on and an in-story reference to Neji talked about making daily pickups of trade goods in Leaf, which are more than a day away from Sand and Mist, let alone the security implications of letting a summoner inside so often they begin to get trusted; and Ami almost got killed in Mist for giving us the Condor scroll.)

If you truly don't see how suggesting we give a scroll away is treason (for similar reasons you could argue we should've given away skywalkers, but that would've been treason too), I think we're working from vastly different preconceptions. I'm precommiting to not voting for plans that have us even bring this up unless it's Keiko and Mari so they can tell us how treasonous this is and it won't damage their opinion of us more.
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If you want the Wakahisa deal to work out, a scroll is a hell of an offer. It's just about the minimum a clan would consider letting off an uncontrolled branch of its bloodline for and improves ties from them which improves ties from Mist which all flow through the Gouketsu.


eaglejarl said:
Ooh, a tie. Dealer's choice is always fun.
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Ominous. Let's see, punching or not-punching, any bets?


faflec said:
[inserted token]
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You continue to genuinely frighten me.


RandomOTP said:
Maybe we could send Noburi and a group of totally-not-bodyguards? He could visit his sisters as an excuse to feel around for the political atmosphere while also subtly asking "where in the nine hells is your half of the trade agreement." He's smart enough that he could come up with plans and backup plans, especially if he ran them through Mari and Keiko for optimization.

Of course, I'd rather not send Mari or Keiko, themselves, with Noburi to Mist. It's a bad place with bad memories of bad habits for the both of them, and I'd rather not ask them to relive that and risk a backslide. Maybe we could send Haru and ask/pay Yuno to go with him? If Yuno doesn't want to meet his family, then we could always hire out a few ninja through the Tower to join Haru in guarding him. Or we could do that anyway, as a precautionary measure. And Haru going could also serve as a bonding experience between them, to help Haru feel less isolated within the clan.

---
Edit: Side note, what do you guys think about hiring jonin and special jonin to do guest lectures at the Academy? Most Jonin have at least one area of specialty, right? Stealth, tracking, seduction, etc. Well, what if they gave an hour lecture on their sphere of focus whenever the Academy covers the topic? It'd be an easy hour or two of their time, and they'd only have to actually interact with the children for about ten, fifteen minutes for a Q/A at the end.

I don't know how many would actually take the time to do that --it'd be a little like asking a mathematician to explain long division. But, the Will of Fire is still a thing, the Sinkhole Incident still has "village unity" in the forefront of people's minds, and Asuma might decide that he can spare a jonin once/twice a month for something like that.
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Reminder about exchange students.

-wait, wasn't the whole point of adopting Haru to get him crippled so we could bond with uncle over rebuilding him to Frankensteinien perfection?


(Seriously, I should not be in charge)
 
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Lailoken said:
-wait, wasn't the whole point of adopting Haru to get him crippled so we could bond with uncle over rebuilding him to Frankensteinien perfection?
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MadScientist said:
...

I guess it's worth a shot.

OMAKE: THE ONLY SENSIBLE OPTION

"DEAR SAGE! WHAT THE?! WHAT?! / Hazou what did you do? " asked ShikiMari sensei.

Hazou scratched his chin and frowned at the two headed monstrosity.

"I... ran out of corpses. Sorry. Had to improvise."

Akeiburi gave a sympathetic look / scowled / scowled.

"Hazou if you don't know how to fix this..."

"I can fix it! I just need more bodyparts to work with. Sage!"

"It's really impressive that you managed to do this sensei. / The pangolins had better not see me like this or they'll disown me. And then I will murder you. / Oh this is just typical..."

Hazou clicked his fingers and pointed at the Akane head.

"See! Akane appreciates my hard work! Why can't the rest of you be more like her? Best. Student."

Akeiburi beamed / glared / huffed.

"WHY ARE YOU ALL BEING SO BLASÉ ABOUT THIS?!" Shikigami head half-screamed.

Mari head sighed.

"You really didn't spend very long with them, did you? As far as Hazou's plots go, this one's kinda... in the middle."

............​

Wait. Eaglejarl likes body-horror, right?

*shrugs*

Ah, I'm sure it'll be fine.
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Kinda, the point was to make him into a worthwhile Shikigami replacement, since all our others died.
 
RandomOTP said:
Side note: how many of the anti-Hyuuga seals do we have left and how difficult would it be to reverse-engineer them, if we worked together with Kagome? They're a precious resource that we're not renewing. I feel like this project should be up there with "fix Noburi's barrel" in terms of importance --though of greater urgency, since Noburi's not slated to see a decline for another 5ish years, while we could run out of AH Seals within the next year or so.
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Don't worry about it for now. You aren't in any danger of running out and there is ongoing discussion on the other side of the DM screen about whether the ones you have are (A) Jiraiya-only seal because the simplest form of it was too hard for anyone else to learn or (B) Jiraiya's (possibly more effective) version of a seal that many Leaf sealmasters know because the Third would never allow a situation where the Hyūga have nothing stopping them from spying on everyone. There are knock-on implications to either position so it's going to take some wrangling. Regardless, you aren't in any danger of running out so don't waste effort on it.

RandomOTP said:
backslide
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Snerk. You have such faith.... :D
 
eaglejarl said:
Don't worry about it for now. You aren't in any danger of running out and there is ongoing discussion on the other side of the DM screen about whether the ones you have are (A) Jiraiya-only seal because the simplest form of it was too hard for anyone else to learn or (B) Jiraiya's (possibly more effective) version of a seal that many Leaf sealmasters know because the Third would never allow a situation where the Hyūga have nothing stopping them from spying on everyone. There are knock-on implications to either position so it's going to take some wrangling. Regardless, you aren't in any danger of running out so don't waste effort on it.
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Thanks for the update! If they're Jiraiya only, I guess we could try and figure something else out, and if they're not Jiraiya only, then I'll probably try to make a vote towards learning his version --as opposed to the less effective, common one.

eaglejarl said:
Snerk. You have such faith.... :D
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*Wide-eyed expression*
Shit. Shitshitshitshit.
 
I wonder... Between Hazou's Out-Enlightened perspective and Keiko's possible discriptions of Condura's space/time jutsu, do you think we could recreate it on a (far) smaller scale using fuuinjutsu? Not now, obviously, but eventually. I feel like Keiko's retelling would be enough to get some insight, or perhaps Ami, since she's similarly Out-Touched and this might provide a better perspective on space/time fuckery.
 
Kiba said:
Based on what, exactly? Ami, as a representative of Mist, literally gave Leaf a scroll in return for risking their jonin. Only reason Ami was threatened with death because she was viewed as a loose cannon from her kage.
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I'm fairly sure any other ninja would been executed on the spot for trying what Ami did. The only reason she survived is AMI/Goketsu/Nara/Asuma protecting her.
 
eaglejarl said:
He sat forward, setting his teacup on the rim of the firepit so he could lean his elbows on his knees and look serious. "I've worked with various Mori in the past, so I'll start by laying out the facts, since you guys seem to prefer that. Back in Mist, your sister has nibbled around the edges of high-level politics for years, gotten in the way of powerful people's schemes, and managed to get away with it. She behaves in ways that don't fit with her clan, says things that normal people don't say, and generally makes everybody uncomfortable. Then she founded the AMI, undercutting the Mizukage in the process. Here in Leaf she founded the KEI, undercutting the Hokage and improving her own power...but as far as I know she didn't explicitly place that power at the disposal of the Mizukage. She kept it for herself, and you, and Uzumaki. If she were seen as trustworthy and reliable back home then the Mizukage would be doing cartw...would be extremely happy." He paused, a shudder going down the spines of himself and everyone else in the room who had grown up in Mist. The idea of the Mizukage, any Mizukage, turning cartwheels of joy...it was terrifying.

"Anyway, if she were better trusted then the Mizukage would be delighted to have her founding an organization to cause problems for the Hokage. Unfortunately, she's not. People are getting seriously freaked out about now, and the last straw was when word got home that she had convinced the Lady of the Nara and the jinchūriki of the Nine Tails to go on a Summoner-hunting trip with her. Everyone knows how you feel about her, and Uzumaki is a teenage boy that would be easy for her to lead around by his dick. Everyone figured that she'd be coming home with a Summoning contract on top of everything else, so the Mizukage called her home. I don't know what's going to happen. Maybe she gets a stern talking to and sent back, maybe something stronger."
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RandomOTP said:
Reasons to NOT give summoning scroll away.
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I very much agree with all of these, and they're pretty much what I was trying to communicate, put much more clearly.

Kiba said:
If we have extra scroll leftover, then we should consider giving it to an ally. It doesn't have to be Mist. it could be Sand.
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It's jumping far ahead of the gun to say this, because even if this became non-treasonous, we'd have to get 3 more scrolls to have ones for Akane and Haru first. Given that we aren't close to unanimous on going out to just get one and QM statements on difficulty make it seem like an endeavor, I'm not confident that's going to happen before FOOM, at which point all calculations are out the window as context has changed.

(For the sake of being objective, trading a summoning scroll for Ami could happen, but I don't think we need to discuss that until a) we get a summoning scroll, b) Ami expressed desire to defect - remember, Keiko obviously wants it, but who knows what Ami is thinking, and c) Asuma is more amenable.)

Lailoken said:
If you want the Wakahisa deal to work out, a scroll is a hell of an offer. It's just about the minimum a clan would consider letting off an uncontrolled branch of its bloodline for and improves ties from them which improves ties from Mist which all flow through the Gouketsu.
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You're bypassing the arguments RandomOTP and I have made and just focusing on the positives you see while ignoring the numerous failure modes. Furthermore, the issue is we thought we had a deal with the Wakahisa already.
RandomOTP said:
  • The allied nation has no reason to keep its word after receiving the scroll
    • The Summoning Clan may not necessarily even accept a Summoner. Summoners are useful to the Summoning Clans, but not necessary. This would make the entire trade agreement less effective, and would provide an excuse to back out of their side of the trade agreement.
    • The Mist's Waka... Wakash... Vampiric Dew Clan has already seemed to renege on our current trade deal, or is otherwise failing to keep their side of the agreement in a timely manner.
      • Is this exclusive to that specific clan? Or is this behavior indicative of a wider movement in Mist's internal politics?
  • We're giving up a valuable resource for a "maybe"
    • Mist seems to be a tenuous ally at best. If things sour later on, and this Summoning Scroll ends up being used against Leaf ninja, then the Goketsu are going to suffer for giving them such a weapon. Hazou is no Hashirama, who could tank that sort of blow to his reputation.
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Essentially this.

Depending on how this next update goes, we should at least get a progress report on the Wakahisa deal. (Side note, inventing seal-phones would be priceless). We haven't gotten the koi, don't know they got involved in the Ami treason case, and generally haven't heard anything about them for a while. We could combine that with talking about the chocolate deal.
 
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In any case, Mist could call in Leaf for a scroll hunting favor because of Ami's work. Or Leaf could give Mist a spare scroll and save their Jonin for another rainy day.
 
Kiba said:
In any case, Mist could call in Leaf for a scroll hunting favor because of Ami's work. Or Leaf could give Mist a spare scroll and save their Jonin for another rainy day.
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That's an option, but let's wait until this actually happens. That would be a different situation where Leaf is on the hook to find one, not the Goketsu, and we aren't at the point where we need to preemptively give them a scroll.
 
So Noburi can overfill a person by 50% and only take a moderate consequence. This means that a boss summon is an option at CR 37. I strongly suggest when we reach detour 1 that we consider adding this to it
 
I'd rather get enough chakra to be able to summon Cannai without Noburi around to help. And without needing to take a moderate consequence (which is a dangerous thing to do in combat).
 
Oneiros said:
So Noburi can overfill a person by 50% and only take a moderate consequence. This means that a boss summon is an option at CR 37. I strongly suggest when we reach detour 1 that we consider adding this to it
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This has the added benefit of making it so that we can do up to 8 SCs at once - which is super chakra efficient, relatively. Combined with SC 40, that means that without Noburi at all, we can FOOM until ~Resolve 89, if my calcs are right. We'll still want Noburi around for refills so we're not always crippled, of course.
 
MadScientist said:
I'd rather get enough chakra to be able to summon Cannai without Noburi around to help. And without needing to take a moderate consequence (which is a dangerous thing to do in combat).
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Sure but that's CR 55 which is a huge investment. Also we should never fight fair. Hazō should never be in combat. SC and Summons should do all the work. So the moderate will never be relevant
 
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