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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Oneiros said:
Sure but that's CR 55 which is a huge investment. Also we should never fight fair. Hazō should never be in combat. SC and Summons should do all the work. So the moderate will never be relevant
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No ninja wants to fight fair[1]​, and I'd wager it's easier said than done to make sure every fight is unfair in our favor. I agree that our M.O. should be to fight unfair whenever possible, but I will also caution against leaving weak spots open on the assumption that we'll only ever need to fight within our M.O.

[1] I suppose some ninjas want to fight fair some of the time, like Rock Lee or someone I guess, but in general everyone wants to cheat if they can get away with it.
 
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Inferno Vulpix said:
No ninja wants to fight fair[1]​, and I'd wager it's easier said than done to make sure every fight is unfair in our favor. I agree that our M.O. should be to fight unfair whenever possible, but I will also caution against leaving weak spots open on the assumption that we'll only ever need to fight within our M.O.

[1] I suppose some ninjas want to fight fair some of the time, like Rock Lee or someone I guess, but in general everyone wants to cheat if they can get away with it.
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This is basically the Superman VS Batman debate. Right now we aren't strong enough to win scary fights by trying to be Superman. We also aren't planning on doing anything to increase our raw strength. Since this means to win we have to Batman the situation we need to pretty much focus on that course of action. Just pointing out that yes if our contingencies are not in place we are in trouble doesn't solve anything. Perhaps it would be more helpful to examine fail states for the contingencies we have?
 
Oneiros said:
This is basically the Superman VS Batman debate. Right now we aren't strong enough to win scary fights by trying to be Superman. We also aren't planning on doing anything to increase our raw strength. Since this means to win we have to Batman the situation we need to pretty much focus on that course of action. Just pointing out that yes if our contingencies are not in place we are in trouble doesn't solve anything. Perhaps it would be more helpful to examine fail states for the contingencies we have?
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I'm more saying that we shouldn't forego the Superman path entirely, relying on the expectation of prep time to keep us alive. I believe that a moderate amount of investment in the Superman path will be very worthwhile in terms of rounding out our survivability, even if we are still Batman whenever we can.
 
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We can also stack the deck by creating new offensive seals and then pulling a Goketsu can carrying several dozens of each at any one time.
 
Inferno Vulpix said:
I'm more saying that when we shouldn't forego the Superman path entirely, relying on the expectation of prep time to keep us alive. I believe that a moderate amount of investment in the Superman path will be very worthwhile in terms of rounding out our survivability, even if we are still Batman whenever we can.
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Ok what is your proposal? Are you wanting to invest in stats before detour 1? Do a general combat detour? Focus 100% on creating seals to raise our combat ability? Go all in with PAE? Try to find a silver bullet jutsu?

Just saying that we shouldn't ignore the Superman path isn't helpful IMO. There's no debate. No policy. It's to vague and unspecific to actually strategize around.
 
Oneiros said:
Ok what is your proposal? Are you wanting to invest in stats before detour 1? Do a general combat detour? Focus 100% on creating seals to raise our combat ability? Go all in with PAE? Try to find a silver bullet jutsu?

Just saying that we shouldn't ignore the Superman path isn't helpful IMO. There's no debate. No policy. It's to vague and unspecific to actually strategize around.
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One good option would be to keep leveling Athletics among the detours, preferably taking one of the low/mid support slots. Athletics is the stat that determines, when someone throws a kunai from ambush, whether you dodge it or take damage, and it's relevant to opening the distance so our summons can do their thing. It's the 'stay alive' stat, essentially.

I didn't want to get into the details of policy when we were just discussing the most broad level of considerations, but if you need a specific use case then 'how do we survive an ambush sprung on us as we're running cross-country?' is pretty emblematic of situations where we can't be Batman right off the bat.
 
Inferno Vulpix said:
I didn't want to get into the details of policy when we were just discussing the most broad level of considerations, but if you need a specific use case then 'how do we survive an ambush sprung on us as we're running cross-country?' is pretty emblematic of situations where we can't be Batman right off the bat.
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This is actually something that I think we are well suited to solving by Batman strategies. Option 1 use SC seal factory to make sure we have enough sky walkers to cover the entire trek. It's hard to ambush someone when you're in an environment with no cover. We should add in wearing camouflage that matches the sky so we can't easily be seen.

Option 2 summon a bunch of summons in advance to guard us. Add in improves chakra sensing seals or summons with scent based tracking. This should give us enough speed, firepower and battlefield awareness to overcome almost all ambushes
 
Anti-Byakugan seals can be made by any senior sealmaster, for sale exclusively to the Tower.

A miscellaneous historical note: Jiraiya completed the original seal during that tumultuous period in between the Minami splitting off from the Hyūga and receiving official clan recognition (with all its attendant protections) from the Hokage.
 
Velorien said:
Anti-Byakugan seals can be made by any senior sealmaster, for sale exclusively to the Tower.

A miscellaneous historical note: Jiraiya completed the original seal during that tumultuous period in between the Minami splitting off from the Hyūga and receiving official clan recognition (with all its attendant protections) from the Hokage.
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Does Kagome consider himself capable of researching and producing anti-Byakugan seals?
 
Oneiros said:
This is actually something that I think we are well suited to solving by Batman strategies. Option 1 use SC seal factory to make sure we have enough sky walkers to cover the entire trek. It's hard to ambush someone when you're in an environment with no cover. We should add in wearing camouflage that matches the sky so we can't easily be seen.

Option 2 summon a bunch of summons in advance to guard us. Add in improves chakra sensing seals or summons with scent based tracking. This should give us enough speed, firepower and battlefield awareness to overcome almost all ambushes
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Skywalkers do neatly solve the problem of cross-country travel, provided we have clearance to use them. IIRC they're still super-double-top-secret even though the rest of the big 5 has them already, so that route depends on the context of skywalkers by that point.

Keeping a strong retinue of summons, imo, sounds like a hard sell to those summons and also like it'd cost a lot of chakra, but bar that it does seem feasible.

But then, do we do that for every time we're outside of Konoha's gates, for the entire duration whenever we aren't safely hidden? Part of me feels 'unironically yes' to that, but another part of me says that we're safer with high Athletics anyways, under the assumption that our inability to see a vulnerability in our M.O. implies insufficient imagination rather than true safety.
 
Velorien said:
Yes.

Also, would you or some other kind soul be able to confirm how many days it's been since the Great Collapse? An accurate answer would be valuable for the purpose of assessing Leaf's current survival potential.
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According to the timeline doc, the Collapse happened Feb 16 at 5AM, and we are currently at July 26 after the end of the last update, which appears to be about 161 days.
 
Inferno Vulpix said:
But then, do we do that for every time we're outside of Konoha's gates, for the entire duration whenever we aren't safely hidden? Part of me feels 'unironically yes' to that, but another part of me says that we're safer with high Athletics anyways, under the assumption that our inability to see a vulnerability in our M.O. implies insufficient imagination rather than true safety.
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Are you in favor of raising athletics at detour 1? Or raising that during detour 1 instead of CR 37?

(Side note the thing that has historically gotten us in trouble is being trapped inside buildings with our enemies. Hot Springs, Yakuza Jounin, 4th event in chunnin exam and, Itachi. We need to make sure in the future that a SC is the only instance of Hazō that goes into a building we haven't already secured)
 
Oneiros said:
Are you in favor of raising athletics at detour 1? Or raising that during detour 1 instead of CR 37?

(Side note the thing that has historically gotten us in trouble is being trapped inside buildings with our enemies. Hot Springs, Yakuza Jounin, 4th event in chunnin exam and, Itachi. We need to make sure in the future that a SC is the only instance of Hazō that goes into a building we haven't already secured)
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The fun thing with detour 1 is that we only need to get something up to 50, and a decently common opinion is to put Deceit there.

Looking at Noumero's spreadsheet for FOOM, Deceit goes to 50 in the first detour and then to 60 in the second, with Alertness taking its place at 50. If we put Athletics at 50 at the second detour, that would be pretty good.

More than that, though, if we're aiming to emulate a non-FOOM build in visible stats, for which Athletics counts as a visible stat (because as long as we're not sandbagging it should be pretty clear how strong our Athletics is), then we also have to map these considerations onto a hypothetical non-FOOM Hazou who also would want some equivalent level of investment in Athletics along the rest of their toolkit, so we'll have to double-build the builds at the detour and figure out the right levels then.

(Agree with you on the building thing btw)
 
Velorien said:
I was under the impression that you intended to become the village's kaijuu.
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Well, we do have access to an old sealmaster, once had Jiraiya's sealing notes on Naruto's kaijuu cage, and might one day have access to an amoral research-crazy Uncle... dear beings below, this is a joke, please don't actually do this...
 
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