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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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If Ami shows up at the compound, I am pretty sure the QM will give us time to prepare.

Plus, it's 10 PM in-story.
 
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@Noumero if possible I'd like to expand the Yakuza section. Bring up that The Oyabun wanted to develop a relationship with the Hokage to further his goals. Plus mention that we already have a positive relationship with him
 
Can we stop trying to squeeze everything under the sun in one meeting when it's already 10 PM in story?

Instead, we should focus on a few items and start doing things for stuff we already have actionable information on.
 
Kiba said:
Can we stop trying to squeeze everything under the sun in one meeting when it's already 10 PM in story.
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The time it is in-story is mostly irrelevant. As long as the plan doesn't result in QM's tearing their hair out because we pitched three ridiculous scenes or a pile of things that need ten scenes to do and can't be offscreened, it should be fine.
 
Noumero said:
  • Yes, entirely possible.
  • Yes, because he might've got the scroll.
  • Where to start?
    • How did @Tua put it? This'll be like one of these logic riddles. Which sounds fun, don't get me wrong, but is probably not the most efficient way of doing that.
    • We don't actually know that Ami cares about Mari. For all we know, she hates her like Hana, but she's better at concealing it.
    • Doing that would imply that our trust in Mari is now negative: we're so suspicious of her we're selling her secrets to a relative outsider, so that we may get said outsider's opinion on whether she's lying to us.
    • How do we know Ami isn't in on it? They've had a long off-screen conversation; maybe Ami is fully on board with whatever Mari is doing, and will support her in favour of us.
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MMKII said:
It is one thing to give Ami a bullet she is never going to use to shoot us. It is another thing entirely to let her know that our most competent social agent is a shattered soul that is barely functional underneath the mask. This invites far too much in the way of subtle manipulations on her end.
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Good points about the risks, although I don't think Ami would do anything to hurt Mari or the clan since they're important to Keiko.

The bind we're in is that Mari isn't a reliable source of information about her own problem and I'm not sure there's anyone we absolutely trust who would know what's going on. We could /try/ asking Kagome if he knows anything or could speculate about what effects TLitF might have on the user, but he's terrible at keeping secrets and it's not really his area so I think the chances he knows are low.

Noburi, Akane, and Keiko are trustworthy, and if we lay out our suspicions I think we can rely on them to do anything in their power to help, but barring getting really lucky with Keiko's inference engine I don't think any of them will know or be able to figure out what's going on on their own. That said, Keiko's inference engine is probably worth trying as a first resort. Maybe it can take all the pieces of evidence we've got and construct a model with them, then figure out what we should do about it.

At that point we're down to outside the clan options for information. Keiko could try the Nara libraries. I'll bet anything they have extensive notes on everything they know about the effects of various jutsu, in order to identify and defend against them if nothing else. Since we don't need instructions on how to actually perform the jutsu, that's probably relatively low-security information, and checking the library comes with the benefit of not having to share the secret with anyone.

Keiko could ask Shikamaru and he could use his resources to find out. But he'll absolutely figure out why we're asking even if we try to conceal it, because it's the Nara. I think he's more likely to help than try to use the information against us, but there is some risk. On the plus side if he decides to help he'll probably come up with a good plan.

We could ask Anko. She's friends with Mari, presumably cares about her wellbeing, and knows a fair amount about genjutsu. If she doesn't know the answer, she could probably find out without it getting out that we're the ones looking for the info. She could also be useful in convincing Mari to accept help.

As the highest risk option, if we get really desperate for specialized mental help we could ask Ino if she or someone in her clan would be willing and able to help a ninja with mental issues in strict secrecy, without using anything they learn against them or their clan. We could be somewhat deliberately sloppy in a way that implies that it's Kagome we're asking about instead of Mari. (Everyone knows Kagome isn't quite right, and he doesn't have any position of authority so it's OK if they think he's having problems if we don't go through with having them help.)

We would of course need to handle anything we did in such a way that Mari doesn't feel betrayed, which is another complicating factor.

Thoughts?
 
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TaliesinSkye said:
Good points about the risks, although I don't think Ami would do anything to hurt Mari or the clan since they're important to Keiko.
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There are super disadvantageous things she can do to us that don't necessarily inflict obvious damage, or even "damage" as one could call it.
 
MMKII said:
There are super disadvantageous things she can do to us that don't necessarily inflict obvious damage, or even "damage" as one could call it.
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Yes, she could. Would she? I don't think so. Mari is important to Keiko and Mari being unwell makes Keiko unhappy, as well as making her less safe. Ami cares about Keiko's happiness and safety. Therefore she'll be willing to help Mari.

The same thing goes for the wellbeing of the clan. Ami won't compromise that because doing so would compromise people Keiko cares about as well as allies that better ensure her long term safety.

In short, I don't think she'll do any 'following the letter but not the spirit' sort of shenanigans because she'll genuinely want to help due to the way her own personal motivations work.
 
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TaliesinSkye said:
Yes, she could. Would she? I don't think so. Mari is important to Keiko and Mari being unwell makes Keiko unhappy, as well as making her less safe. Ami cares about Keiko's happiness and safety. Therefore she'll be willing to help Mari.

The same thing goes for the wellbeing of the clan. Ami won't compromise that because doing so would compromise people Keiko cares about as well as allies that better ensure her long term safety.
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My point is that there are inherently suboptimal things Ami can do that result in us not getting what we want but the clan coming out just peachy. There is a difference.
 
MMKII said:
It is one thing to give Ami a bullet she is never going to use to shoot us. It is another thing entirely to let her know that our most competent social agent is a shattered soul that is barely functional underneath the mask. This invites far too much in the way of subtle manipulations on her end.
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Torpling said:
Would you be willing to put a sentence or two in the plan telling Akane how we got Mari functional and asking for her opinion on the matter?
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In case the quoting wasn't by accident.
 
I honestly don't want to rock the boat with Mari. She's like in peak mental health since she started directly fucking with her brain chemistry. Unless it looks like using TLitF is adversely affecting her life I'm cool with letting it happen
 
Oneiros said:
I honestly don't want to rock the boat with Mari. She's like in peak mental health since she started directly fucking with her brain chemistry. Unless it looks like using TLitF is adversely affecting her life I'm cool with letting it happen
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In the worst case scenario, if it eats memories and she's using it to stay 'stable' then pretty soon there may not be much of Mari as a human being left.

It would be awful if she turned into someone useful but unrecognizable and we could have done something to stop it if we'd looked into the warning signs early.
 
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The relevant quotes about the price of TLitF in case anyone other than me also forgot:

Velorien said:
She blinked as if remembering something. "Oh, yeah. Whatever you choose, I won't hurt you. You're in a forbidden genjutsu called Truth Lost in the Fog. As long as I'm willing to pay the price, I can choose for you to wake up as if you were dreaming, and forget everything you saw and heard.
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eaglejarl said:
Hazou watched for a moment. "Um...I was wondering about Yuno," he said carefully. "I'm worried how she'll take it if we tell her that Noburi never intended to marry her. Could you use Truth Lost in the Fog on her?"

Inoue froze, then went back to sipping carefully at the soup. After a moment she sighed.

"The price for that is getting higher all the time," she half-said, half-muttered. She licked her lips uncomfortably. "Hazou," she said. "I...really can't. Before, I didn't have much to lose but now I do. All of you are...precious to me." The last words came out in a rush and she blushed furiously.

Hazou grinned fit to split his face. "Awww, Sensei, that's so sweet!"

Inoue growled and tried to swat him, but it was half-hearted at best. "Don't let it go to your head," she said. "Anyway, no. Given how things are, I'm not sure I'll ever be comfortable using Truth Lost in the Fog again. We'll just have to find another way."
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Re-reading this, I'm leaning towards the 'TLitF makes you sociopathic to some degree' theory.

It would fit with the reputation she had in Mist if she actually did not feel much empathy back then.
It would also fit with the amount of pain being confronted about it by Hana caused her if she at that point evaluated her past actions under a more empathetic lense.
Maybe I'm overfitting.

There's also this, where Mari considers using the jutsu as 'killing':
eaglejarl said:
Her laugh was grim. "Nope. Truth Lost in the Fog...all the catharsis of personal conversations, none of the ongoing vulnerability. I wasn't willing to look weak in front of my team, so I killed you."
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If she was in a state of mind where she didn't care about killing people it would make more sense for her to spam TLitF.
 
Torpling said:
The relevant quotes about the price of TLitF in case anyone other than me also forgot:





Re-reading this, I'm leaning towards the 'TLitF makes you sociopathic to some degree' theory.

It would fit with the reputation she had in Mist if she actually did not feel much empathy back then.
It would also fit with the amount of pain being confronted about it by Hana caused her if she at that point evaluated her past actions under a more empathetic lense.
Maybe I'm overfitting.

There's also this, where Mari considers using the jutsu as 'killing':


If she was in a state of mind where she didn't care about killing people it would make more sense for her to spam TLitF.
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This is a viable possibility, one I considered too.

We need solid answers to know what's going on to know if we need to interfere. We've got our choice of places to go looking for them, with varying levels of risk.
 
I'm on the fence. On the one hand, it's clear that Mari's previously-broken mental state is the cause of her using TLitF so much, and her pre-mindfucked persona doesn't seem to be willing to use the technique. But on the other hand, it doesn't seem to be screwing her and if she's used it in Mist the effects clearly wore off to at least some degree pretty quickly, despite long-term use.

I'd be willing to consider a soft investigative approach, but not a harder one. We can keep things under wraps within the clan and talk to Mari without pushing things too hard, is what I'd think we should do.
 
faflec said:
I'm on the fence. On the one hand, it's clear that Mari's previously-broken mental state is the cause of her using TLitF so much, and her pre-mindfucked persona doesn't seem to be willing to use the technique. But on the other hand, it doesn't seem to be screwing her and if she's used it in Mist the effects clearly wore off to at least some degree pretty quickly, despite long-term use.

I'd be willing to consider a soft investigative approach, but not a harder one. We can keep things under wraps within the clan and talk to Mari without pushing things too hard, is what I'd think we should do.
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Lower risk suggestions, then:

Lay out our observations and concerns to Keiko, ask for her analysis.

Ask her about looking up Truth Lost in the Fog in the Nara libraries to see if there's anything there about the costs of its use, and perhaps something that could tell us what the eye color changes are about.

With whatever information we manage to obtain that way we could talk to Noburi and Akane for their input and evaluate approaching Mari about it if concern seems warranted.

Thoughts?
 
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