I got the feeling that her survival instincts were better than that though? :p
More seriously, she thought to herself that talking about USoUD and what Zabuza was going to say would probably get her killed, why do we think that's any different from talking smack about the Hokage (if he gets elected)?
What we do is arrange for the rumor of what Hiashi said to be spread, and then make sure clanless know that one of them was there.
 
This seems like something that could get us declared traitors if it got out. Conspiring with a foreign power for something like the Hokage position seems like potential political suicide, especially because they'd know it too. If we did this and got away with it, then Ami or Ren could potentially end us at their leisure by leaking their involvement.
Good point, it depends on local law. Discussing local politics with a foreigner, even a foreign head of state, would generally only fall under pretty broad definitions of treason, but it's not completely impossible. If there was some sort of material aid that would be another matter, but mere discussion is usually only criminalized by the most rapidly paranoid of regimes.

Mari may be making the (better-informed as a social jounin) decision here that her time is better spent out doing things than getting and giving information from and to us.
Coordinating plans and efforts so we're not working at cross purposes is always worthwhile and doesn't take all that long.
 
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I think the *gallows humor* part covers that more or less, please check to be sure.
A few years was higher than I was thinking, and more likely to be shot down - I was thinking a few weeks or months, since she'd be more likely to accept that. (Of course, if Naruto's still not feeling up to the job after a few months, she's had some time to get used to the role and might be convinced to stay on just a little longer...)
 
Good point, it depends on local law. Discussing local politics with a foreigner, even a foreign head of state, would generally only fall under pretty broad definitions of treason, but it's not completely impossible. If there was some sort of material aid that would be another matter, but mere discussion is usually only criminalized by the most rapidly paranoid of regimes.


Coordinating plans and efforts so we're not working at cross purposes is always worthwhile and doesn't take all that long.

Alternatively, lean into it. Lay the groundwork as a backup plan, and if Hiashi does end up getting the hat immediately start shouting that he colluded with Mist to interfere with the election.
 
@Kiba I think we can shrink it down to ~300 without butchering the meaning, though I might be optimistic in that regard; gonna go experiment with that for a bit.
I'm becoming unsure of that part.

On the one hand, yes, Mari's input would be useful, and if she's setting out to e. g. murder-suicide Hiashi, we better learn of it preemptively.

On the other hand, that risks an immediate relapse:
  1. She's just managed to put herself together. What would happen if we break her stride before she actually accomplishes anything with her newfound functionality? She may lose momentum entirely.
  2. Continued interactions with her may lead her to believe she's compromising us, which would plunge her back into non-functionality. Bear with me:
    • Hazou accepted responsibility for all her actions: she's currently acting on his orders, not of her own volition.
    • Consider that she likely used a similar coping strategy back when she was executing Yagura's assignments. We all know how that ended.
    • Hazou's ploy likely only worked because Mari believes that Hazou's goals are good, unlike Yagura's — she trusts Hazou to order her to stand back if he determines that she is, for example, being too evil.
    • Therefore, we should avoid doing anything which would invalidate her trust in Hazou's goodness.
    • Mari believes that she's constantly manipulating people to obey her evil whims. If we ask her for advice, or indeed talk to her for too long, there's a risk she'll convince herself she's just manipulating Hazou into supporting her. Therefore his judgment isn't good, therefore she can't trust him to hold her in check, therefore she should lock herself in a room and never talk.
    • Note how quickly she walked out on us. Maybe it's not because she's in a hurry to murder-suicide Hiashi. Maybe it's because she believes herself a walking cognitohazard and she wants to avoid contaminating us.
    • Perhaps we can't actually employ her as a strategic adviser, at least for now — only as a tactical commander, an allied free actor, or a guided missile.
Or maybe I'm on a completely wrong track here.
The intention of getting Mari back into the compound is to (briefly; very briefly) learn the broad strokes of what she's gonna do and ask her advice on meeting Tsunade and Naruto. The former, I think, should not trip any issues as you've described; the latter might if we spend too long. If I added a blurb stating that we don't take too long <plus or minus some clarifying factors> would this be acceptable to you? Please let me know, I worry that I miss stuff whenever social combat is involved :p
A few years was higher than I was thinking, and more likely to be shot down - I was thinking a few weeks or months, since she'd be more likely to accept that. (Of course, if Naruto's still not feeling up to the job after a few months, she's had some time to get used to the role and might be convinced to stay on just a little longer...)
Changed it to "a small while", is that acceptable?

[X] Action Plan: Gathering Allies

Word Count: 499
  • Bring Mari back inside.
    • We trust you, but need your advice on meeting with Tsunade/Naruto.
    • What were you going to do, anyway?
    • Let her do her thing afterwards.
  • Read Jiraiya's will and answers.
    • Follow instructions for his death, and apply them to our future actions.
  • Meet with people.
    • Optimize with the clan first.
    • Tsunade:
      • Attitude:
        • Show measured sympathy. She lost her teammates in pitched battle, and hates pity.
        • Let her vent.
        • Don't waste her time.
      • Attitude: Be respectful, firm, and very serious. Don't aggress or back down from dismissals or intimidation.
      • Meeting:
        • Deliver Jiraiya's message. Offer our condolences.
        • We're planning to adopt Naruto, as Jiraiya wanted. Is he OK for visitors?
        • Talk about the broadsheet's accuracy.
        • Is she making a bid for the hat?
          • Given the broadsheet, Hiashi's faction intends to go to war with Rock and Cloud, immediately after Leaf suffered a major blow, and while dismissing our allies in Sand and Mist.
            • Leaf could very easily lose and be destoyed. Even if it doesn't, a war after the Akatsuki catastrophe could cripple the village system for generations.
            • (If Hazou knows that the Akatsuki are at large) Not to mention there are 7 S-rank criminals at large, with a mission to pursue peace the "hard way".
          • On the other hand, this is an incredible opportunity to start anew and build a long-lasting peace.
            • For the first time in recorded history, the five major villages fought together against a common foe.
            • (If Hazou knows that the Akatsuki are at large) And the weakened villages can only oppose the remaining Akatsuki together.
          • We need someone who can credibly oppose Hiashi, and she's the best we've got.
          • Hazou talked to some clanless ninja on the way back. They believed it was illegal for "mudfoots" to learn MedNin. Is she really ok with this?
          • *gallows humor* At worst, she just needs to suffer the hat for a small while until Naruto can take over.
        • If she's unwilling, ask who she'd support.
        • Thank her for her time; her advice is always welcome.
    • Naruto:
      • ONLY do this if he's functioning.
      • Introduce ourselves and offer condolences for his losses. Let him vent.
      • If Jiraiya left Naruto anything, give that to him.
      • Jiraiya wanted us to adopt you once you returned. It's still your choice; we'll support you no matter your decision.
      • Relay Tsunade's answer on becoming Hokage. If she said no, does he want to make a bid; else, will he back her?
  • Misc. stuff:
    • Ask Mari about Clan Head duties and Leaf politics. She's been our Acting Clan Head during the Exams.
      • How to declare clan secrets, and what protections it gives.
      • All clan heads and their political leanings.
    • Investigate good adoption targets: Nakano and co., Lee, clanless Jonin like Kabuto.
    • Investigate the broadsheet.
      • It's been printed, ask the Nara who published it.
      • Visit bars and public newscenters, work at hospitals..., to gauge public sentiment towards other villages.
        • Maybe ask Minori what really happened?
    • Ask Kagome if he's willing to teach more apprentices.
 
This paragraph, and the "fact's don't care about your feelings" "own" are, in fact, racist and otherwise discriminatory dog whistles, and as much as I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt on this not being intended as such, these dogwhistles can and do have real consequences when shared and spread and normalized even (or perhaps especially, in some cases) by those who are not racist themselves. I recognize that people in character need not be paragons, but when it continues ooc...
Sorry, but why? There are lots of facts that I don't like; that doesn't make them non-facts, and you're not an anti-semite just because you discuss them.

I want to ensure that this has been addressed by the source so there's no confusion, and then I'll let the matter drop since, as people have said, this thread isn't about modern politics. Short answer: I was deliberately and, I had thought, clearly satirizing many of the ridiculous arguments that get trotted out by a certain segment of modern society, and also pointing towards the flaws in the "Facts don't care about your feelings" quote.

In more detail and much less politeness:

I'm a liberal and conservatives frustrate me. I recognize that not all conservatives are bad people and not all liberals are good people. I've read The Righteous Mind and think it's insightful and explains a lot about why liberals and conservatives have so many issues. Personally, I don't give two shits about the Sacredness/Purity axis and I think that using Authority as one basis for your morality is actively harmful. I also recognize that most liberals seem to be consequentialists while most conservatives seem to be some other flavor (virtue ethics, deontologists, whatever), and the fact that we disagree on the foundational question of "how do we determine what is bad, good, better, best" makes it very difficult to actually work together. For the record, I think the conservative attitude is deeply, deeply flawed, although the fact that conservatives appear to be disproportionately driven by their amgydala (the part of the brain that processes, among other things, fear) makes it easier to understand where they got that system.

With that said, let's come back to MfD. Were Keiko and Noburi being racist against clanless ninja? No. "Clanless" is not a race. Were they being classicist and/or bigoted? Absolutely. Does this make Keiko and Noburi inherently bad people? No. It makes them teenagers who have been victims of negative indoctrination and misinformation. If they learned that those facts they were quoting were invalid or inaccurate and they still clung to their conclusions then that would make them bad people.

Is this attitude appropriate for their characters? Absolutely. They are teenage scions of important clans in a roughly feudal society that is incredibly stratified: noble clans > minor clans > clanless > > > > civilians. It would be out of character for them to not have these attitudes.

So. Was I dogwhistling bigotry against clanless ninja when I had K&N quote these bigoted stats? No, I was outright stating bigotry...or, at least, as 'outright' as one can get without literally putting the words 'Noburi said, bigotedly' on the page.

Was I dogwhistling real-world racism by quoting these facts? I suppose one can come to that interpretation -- after all, the words that I put in K&N's mouth were derived from actual slanders leveled at disadvantaged groups (mostly African-Americans) in modern America. I would like to think that the framing made it clear how ridiculous these slanders are -- "clanless ninja" are, again, not a race, they are a socioeconomic group. If they lack literacy skills, or if they suffer more disciplinary actions, then one needs to find an actual explanation, since one cannot fall back on the Confederate attitude of "Well, black people clanless ninja are lazy and dumb and criminal because DNA". Clanless are by definition not biologically related (any more than any other humans are). They do not share DNA beyond simply being human, so there cannot be a biological explanation for any trend found among clanless ninja. The only thing they have in common is that they are poor. This should suggest that either (a) the statistics are deceptive because of confounding variables or (b) the solution to this "crime wave" lies in improving the socioeconomic standards of clanless ninja. One might even go beyond that and extend the logic back to the real world and say "Huh...it's true that the statistics show young black men in America are incarcerated at a higher rate than other ethnic groups. Is it possible that, as with clanless ninja in MfD, there are confounding variables related to race in the real world, or that socioeconomics is the cause as opposed to Confederate slander?"

Now let's move on to the phrase "Facts don't care about your feelings". So far as I'm aware, the originator of this line is Ben Shapiro, a media darling of the far- and/or alt-right. I'm not going to mince words: I believe that Ben Shapiro is scum. He debates dishonestly and is very explicit about that fact, seeks victory instead of truth, has to my knowledge never displayed empathy or given the benefit of the doubt, and takes attitudes that actively retard human progress. He gish gallops, he ad hominems, and he mostly punches down by preferring to take on random college students at a Q&A instead of serious debaters in a formal setting.

The phrase is an effective soundbite. It immediately puts the victim (because, let's be honest, this is nothing but an attack intended to shut down debate) onto the defensive. It forces the victim to abandon the actual topic and prove that they are debating based on facts instead of feelings, giving Shapiro the tempo and control of the debate. It also leads beautifully into a gish gallop, making it impossible for the victim to debunk, in the available time, all of the nonsense that comes after this phrase. It makes my blood boil every time he trots that phrase out.

"Facts don't care about your feelings...or about confounding variables" is, I had thought, a pithy way of showing the flaws in this phrase. The "facts" that Shapiro likes to trot out are usually carefully-packaged bullshit with a sideorder of lies, perfectly polished into a funhouse mirror of distorted reality.

Apparently the aphorism is insufficiently pithy.

With all that said, let's call the derail done. If you'd like to continue the discussion, please PM me.
 
The intention of getting Mari back into the compound
Let me save everyone some time and wordcount: Mari is an elite infiltration-spec jōnin who was not interested in being caught up to. She's gone, and you're not going to be able to talk to her until she decides to come home or seek you out.[1]​


[1] I mean, I suppose you can look around the entire city of Leaf for her if you want. I do not give good odds on finding her.​
 
Let me save everyone some time and wordcount: Mari is an elite infiltration-spec jōnin who was not interested in being caught up to. She's gone, and you're not going to be able to talk to her until she decides to come home or seek you out.[1]​


[1] I mean, I suppose you can look around the entire city of Leaf for her if you want. I do not give good odds on finding her.​
Well, there goes that plan.

*rising panic in Kagome*
 
Let me save everyone some time and wordcount: Mari is an elite infiltration-spec jōnin who was not interested in being caught up to. She's gone, and you're not going to be able to talk to her until she decides to come home or seek you out.[1]​


[1] I mean, I suppose you can look around the entire city of Leaf for her if you want. I do not give good odds on finding her.​
FUCK.
 
@faflec i strongly suggest cutting these parts
If Hazou knows that the Akatsuki are at large) Not to mention there are 7 S-rank criminals at large, with a mission to pursue peace the "hard way"

(If Hazou knows that the Akatsuki are at large) And the weakened villages can only oppose the remaining Akatsuki
Hazō has no way of knowing this and is just needless word count. The argument without the threat of Akatsuki is super strong without it
 
Order of Operations was built on being able to catch Mari and coordinate plans; without it there's no real reason to vote for it over

[X] Action Plan: Gathering Allies
 
@faflec i strongly suggest cutting these parts



Hazō has no way of knowing this and is just needless word count. The argument without the threat of Akatsuki is super strong without it
Nah, it's fine. I managed to get it sub-400 words.

[X] Action Plan: Gathering Allies

Word Count: 396
  • Read Jiraiya's will and answers. If he left instructions for this situation, follow them.
  • Meet with people.
    • Discuss amongst ourselves first.
    • Tsunade:
      • Attitude: Respectful, firm, very serious.
        • Show measured sympathy. She lost her teammates in pitched battle, and hates pity.
        • Don't waste her time, aggress or back down from dismissals or intimidation.
      • Meeting:
        • Deliver Jiraiya's message. Offer our condolences.
        • Jiraiya wanted us to adopt Naruto. Is he OK for visitors?
        • How accurate is definitely-not-Hiashi's broadsheet?
        • Is she planning on becoming Hokage?
          • The broadsheet suggests someone (definitely-not-Hiashi) intends to go to war, even though Leaf's just suffered massive losses from Akatsuki, and while dismissing our Sand/Mist allies. Leaf could very easily lose; even if it wins, the war could could cripple the village system for generations.
          • OTOH, this is an incredible opportunity to start anew and build a lasting peace. For the first time in recorded history, the five major villages fought together against a common foe.
          • If Hazou knows Akatsuki survived: The surviving Akatsuki are going to be gunning for peace "the hard way". The villages can't stop them unless they work together.
          • We need someone who can credibly oppose Hiashi; Tsunade's the best we've got.
          • Hazou talked to some clanless ninja on the way back. They believe it's illegal for "mudfoots" to learn MedNin. Is she really ok with this?
          • *gallows humor* At worst, Naruto can take over once he's ready.
        • If she's unwilling, ask who she'd support.
        • Thank her for her time; her advice is always welcome.
    • Naruto:
      • ONLY do this if he's functioning.
      • Introduce ourselves and offer condolences for his losses.
      • Give Naruto anything Jiraiya left him.
      • Jiraiya wanted us to adopt you once you returned. It's still your choice; we'll support you no matter your decision.
      • Relay Tsunade's answer on becoming Hokage. If she said no, does he want to make a bid; else, will he back her?
  • Misc. stuff:
    • Ask Mari about Clan Head duties and Leaf politics. She was Acting Clan Head during the Exams.
      • What do 'clan secrets' entail?
      • All clan heads and their political leanings.
    • Investigate potential adoptees: Nakano and co., Lee, clanless Jonin like Kabuto.
    • Investigate the broadsheet.
      • It's been printed, ask the Nara who published it.
      • Visit bars and public newscenters, work at hospitals..., to gauge public sentiment towards other villages.
        • Maybe ask Minori what happened?
    • Ask Kagome if he's willing to teach more apprentices.
 
Let me save everyone some time and wordcount: Mari is an elite infiltration-spec jōnin who was not interested in being caught up to. She's gone, and you're not going to be able to talk to her until she decides to come home or seek you out.[1]​


[1] I mean, I suppose you can look around the entire city of Leaf for her if you want. I do not give good odds on finding her.​
Hey, quick san check while you're here: Is it within Mari's skillset to infiltrate and direct popular movements? Say, keeping a clanless protest from becoming violent?
 
Hey, quick san check while you're here: Is it within Mari's skillset to infiltrate and direct popular movements? Say, keeping a clanless protest from becoming violent?
I'm no QM, but I'm pretty sure that's beyond anything short of mind control. Non-violent protesting is super hard even when you don't have the ability to destroy the nearest block with a snap of your fingers.
 
Hey, quick san check while you're here: Is it within Mari's skillset to infiltrate and direct popular movements? Say, keeping a clanless protest from becoming violent?
I mean...she was responsible for keeping everyone in Hidden Swamp in line. Though then again, she handpicked them so she knows what she's working with. It would have to depend on how violent the protest was already becoming, and a zillion factors we don't (but she does) know.
 
So... a thought. The only living "Kage" is Ren ("Kage" in quotes because AMI and all that).

So uh. Why do we need Kages again?

Can we convince the clans of Leaf to try a different method of governance that doesn't involve submission to a single all-powerful authority?
 
So... a thought. The only living "Kage" is Ren ("Kage" in quotes because AMI and all that).

So uh. Why do we need Kages again?

Can we convince the clans of Leaf to try a different method of governance that doesn't involve submission to a single all-powerful authority?
I would vote for plans which seemed to have a reasonable chance of doing this that I was made aware of.
 
The intention of getting Mari back into the compound is to (briefly; very briefly) learn the broad strokes of what she's gonna do and ask her advice on meeting Tsunade and Naruto. The former, I think, should not trip any issues as you've described; the latter might if we spend too long. If I added a blurb stating that we don't take too long <plus or minus some clarifying factors> would this be acceptable to you? Please let me know, I worry that I miss stuff whenever social combat is involved :p
Yes, asking about her plans is not an issue. Regarding advice — perhaps just describe what we're planning to do and ask if we're making any cruc—
Let me save everyone some time and wordcount: Mari is an elite infiltration-spec jōnin who was not interested in being caught up to. She's gone, and you're not going to be able to talk to her until she decides to come home or seek you out.
Oh. Nevermind that, then. (She's totally murdering Hiashi.)
Nah, it's fine. I managed to get it sub-400 words.
I've made an alternative version; I think it has more efficient wording in the "Naruto" and "Misc" sections, and preserves more of Roomba's guidelines for the Tsunade discussion, which I feel are fairly important:

  • Read Jiraiya's will and answers. If he left instructions for this situation, follow them.
  • Meetings (optimize with the clan):
    • Tsunade:
      • Guidelines:
        • Be firm, but respectful: This concerns the future of the clan you're responsible for. Don't be aggressive, but don't let her intimidate or dismiss you.
        • Be serious and direct: You can't manipulate her, and she hates wasting time.
        • Show measured sympathy: Tsunade just lost her lifelong teammates.
          • Don't overdo it: she'll hate being coddled.
      • Discussion:
        • Deliver Jiraiya's message. Offer condolences.
        • Naruto: We plan to adopt him, as Jiraiya wanted. Can we visit him?
        • Hiashi's (?) broadsheet: Is it accurate?
        • Hokageship:
          • The broadsheet suggests that Hiashi's faction plans to go to war with Rock and Cloud — that's immediately after we suffered heavy losses. The war may well destroy us. Even if Leaf wins, it will compound the damage Akatsuki inflicted, crippling the village system for generations.
          • If we instead capitalize on the facts that all major villages fought against a common foe, and that only together we could oppose them again, we could attempt to build a lasting peace.
          • For that, is she willing to make a bid for the hat? She's our best chance against Hiashi.
          • (gallows humor) At worst, she'll only suffer for a few years, until Naruto takes over.
          • Also: Young clanless ninja seem to believe it's illegal for "mudfeet" to become mednin. She's fine with it?
          • If she's unwilling, who should we support?
      • Thank her for her time. You'll always welcome her advice. You're going to need it.
    • Naruto (IFF he's functional):
      • Introduce yourselves. Offer condolences. If Jiraiya left him anything, pass it on.
      • "Jiraiya wanted us to adopt you. But it's your choice: we'll support either decision."
      • Will he make a bid for the hat? Or support Tsunade (if she's willing)?
  • Other:
    • Ask Mari about:
      • Clan heads' rights and duties.
      • How clan secrets work.
      • Other clan heads and their political leanings.
    • Kagome: Is he willing to teach more apprentices?
    • Investigate:
      • Adoption targets: Nakano's team, Lee, clanless jounin like Kabuto.
      • The broadsheet:
        • Who printed it? The Nara should know.
        • Gauge public sentiment towards other villages (visit bars, newscenters, hospitals).
        • Ask Minori what really happened?
 
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The line where we ask Tsunade if she's okay with clanless thinking it's illegal for them to become mednin has my mental model of Tsunade start absolutely lambasting Hazou for some reason. It feels like defiance/challenge/manipulation/something of the sort that would provoke her. It's still a good line, very Hazou-thinking, but I feel we need to be steeled for the backlash. If she gets angry at us for the statement and we back down, we'll lose a ton of cred in her eyes, but if we stand strong she won't hold it against us much.
 
My lazy ass wants to nap. @Noumero I'll check over your proposal, it should be fine but I wanna make sure of it. @Inferno Vulpix Do you think we should alter the clanless statement so that it's less <defiance/manipulation>, if so how should we change it, and if not how should we prepare for it?
 
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