Remove ads

Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

Reader mode
QTesseract said:
At the risk of being a wet blanket about a joke that fell flat...

This paragraph, and the "fact's don't care about your feelings" "own" are, in fact, racist and otherwise discriminatory dog whistles, and as much as I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt on this not being intended as such, these dogwhistles can and do have real consequences when shared and spread and normalized even (or perhaps especially, in some cases) by those who are not racist themselves. I recognize that people in character need not be paragons, but when it continues ooc...
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Raxner said:
Sorry, but why? There are lots of facts that I don't like; that doesn't make them non-facts, and you're not an anti-semite just because you discuss them.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

:jackiechan::jackiechan::jackiechan:
:facepalm:

I'm sorry, but you are both dramatically missing the point.

@QTesseract, eaglejarl knows that he used a racist dogwhistle. He was clearly saying that while those facts are (technically speaking) real statistics, they aren't exactly fair : he was implying that they disregard a whole bunch of socioeconomic factors which are nevertheless important.
For example if we replace "non-clan" by "African-Americans", you get this:
"African-Americans are disproportionately incarcerated : they are bad apples and we shouldn't be associating our clan with them"
"This feel prejudiced, somehow"
"Facts don't care about your feelings!"
And indeed this is prejudiced : it forgets things like "African-Americans people are disproportionately likely to be stopped by the police, they are disproportionately likely to be poor, and they are [etc, you know how this goes]"

@Raxner, I'm sorry to say this, but : that sentence is indeed a well-known dogwhistle for hate speech. It's known as a classic phrase said by racists and suchlike. Hell, just googling it returns PragerU (a far-right youtube channel dedicated to propaganda) and Ben Shapiro (yeah).
 
Last edited:
TalonofAnathrax said:
:jackiechan::jackiechan::jackiechan:
:facepalm:

I'm sorry, but you are both dramatically missing the point.

@QTesseract, eaglejarl knows that he used a racist dogwhistle. He was clearly saying that while those facts are (technically speaking), they aren't exactly fair. Eaglejarl was implying that they disregard a whole bunch of socioeconomic factors which are nevertheless important.

@Raxner, I'm sorry to say this, but : that sentence is indeed a well-known dogwhistle for hate speech. It's known as a classic phrase said by racists and suchlike. Hell, just googling it returns PragerU (a far-right youtube channel dedicated to propaganda) and Ben Shapiro (yeah).
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Raxner said:
Sorry, but why? There are lots of facts that I don't like; that doesn't make them non-facts, and you're not an anti-semite just because you discuss them.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Please take it to PM before the thread is nuked due to an escalating argument.
 
Raxner said:
Sorry, but why? There are lots of facts that I don't like; that doesn't make them non-facts, and you're not an anti-semite just because you discuss them.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
That's what a dog whistle is. It's a statement constructed to be used as a motte and bailey defense, or better yet to slip under mainstream attention entirely, with an explicit defensible stance and an implicit secondary message. The dog whistle is used in place of the more objectionable message; see "the problem in America is the urban poor" (African Americans) or "states rights."
 
@Raxner, I saw that post before you deleted it.
@QTesseract, no need to bother with PMs unless you're in the mood to debate a Ben Shapiro fan. Apparently Raxner is one, doesn't believe that Ben is racist (or that PragerU is) and doesn't believe in dogwhistles.
 
Last edited:
MMKII said:
Please take it to PM before the thread is nuked due to an escalating argument.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I'm sorry, but, no. A thread is the right place to talk about racist dogwhistles in a work.
TalonofAnathrax said:
@Raxner, I saw that post before you deleted it.
@QTesseract, no need to bother with PMs unless you're ready to go in for the long haul. Apparently Raxner is a Ben Shapiro fan, doesn't believe that he's racist (or that PragerU is) and doesn't believe in dogwhistles.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Thank you, I did not see the post in question before it was deleted.
 
QTesseract said:
I'm sorry, but, no. A thread is the right place to talk about racist dogwhistles in a work.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Just to be clear: I don't think that there was a racist dogwhistle here. I think that eaglejarl was being ironic, and using it to point out the fact that the statistic was real but misleading.
Of course, perhaps I'm being too charitable, but that's my read on it.
 
TalonofAnathrax said:
Just to be clear: I don't think that there was a racist dogwhistle here. I think that eaglejarl was being ironic, and using it to point out the fact that the statistic was real but misleading.
Of course, perhaps I'm being too charitable, but that's my read on it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
That was my read on it too. Didn't think it was not obvious or I would have pointed it out sooner.
 
I deleted it as part of the process of editing it, and am now writing a private message to both of @TalonofAnathrax and @QTesseract. You may choose to engage me or not, as you prefer.
 
Last edited:
faflec said:
    • Tsunade:
      • Attitude:
        • Show measured sympathy. She lost her teammates in pitched battle, and hates pity.
        • Let her vent.
        • Don't waste her time.
      • Attitude: Be respectful, firm, and very serious. Don't aggress or back down from dismissals or intimidation.
      • Meeting:
        • Deliver Jiraiya's message. Offer our condolences.
        • We're planning to adopt Naruto, as Jiraiya wanted. Is he OK for visitors?
        • Talk about the broadsheet's accuracy.
        • Is she making a bid for the hat?
          • Given the broadsheet, Hiashi's faction intends to go to war with Rock and Cloud, immediately after Leaf suffered a major blow, and while dismissing our allies in Sand and Mist.
            • Leaf could very easily lose and be destoyed. Even if it doesn't, a war after the Akatsuki catastrophe could cripple the village system for generations.
            • (If Hazou knows that the Akatsuki are at large) Not to mention there are 7 S-rank criminals at large, with a mission to pursue peace the "hard way".
          • On the other hand, this is an incredible opportunity to start anew and build a long-lasting peace.
            • For the first time in recorded history, the five major villages fought together against a common foe.
            • (If Hazou knows that the Akatsuki are at large) And the weakened villages can only oppose the remaining Akatsuki together.
          • We need someone who can credibly oppose Hiashi, and she's the best we've got.
          • Hazou talked to some clanless ninja on the way back. They believed it was illegal for "mudfoots" to learn MedNin. Is she really ok with this?
          • *gallows humor* At worst, she just needs to suffer the hat for a few years until Naruto can take over.
        • If she's unwilling, ask who she'd support.
        • Thank her for her time; her advice is always welcome.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I feel like there's a lot of unnecessary fat in this. This should be condensed. HuhYeahGoodPoint should be the model to follow, honestly.
 
I find it kind of distasteful to call out non-objectionable things that, by someone else in another context, might be objectionable.

It ends up sounding somewhere between "I don't actually trust that you aren't using this objectionably and feel the need to call you out on it" and "What you did isn't bad but I'd like to hijack the conversation to talk about other people doing bad things", and leaves a sour taste in my mouth either way, for different reasons.


But anyways, we do have a good reason to speak with Naruto if he's lucid. We have something to discuss with him related to Jiraiya's last wishes. No need to be sneaky or anything, we have just cause to speak with him and we can just tell them that.
 
TalonofAnathrax said:
Just to be clear: I don't think that there was a racist dogwhistle here. I think that eaglejarl was being ironic, and using it to point out the fact that the statistic was real but misleading.
Of course, perhaps I'm being too charitable, but that's my read on it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Once again, we see why people feel the need to write "/s" on the internet. Anyway, now that we're reasonably certain our QMs don't march about in white hoods, PMs are the place to take this, please? I come here to read entertaining fiction, if I wanted people holding forth on social issues I'd go read the news.

Aaaaaaaaaaaanyway.

I don't see why we have to be sneeki beeki about seeing Naruto. We have plenty of legitimate and important reasons to go talk to him as soon as he's awake and functional. So let's just go do that. Maybe read Jiraiya's will first so we know what we're walking into, maybe we read his will together with Naruto.
 
Tsunade
  • Be clear, direct, and mindful.
  • She hates pity, manipulation, or wasting time.
  • Meeting
    • Deliver Jiraiya's message.
    • Discuss broadsheet's accuracy.
    • Jiraiya wanted us to adopt Naruto. Is he OK for visitation?
    • Hat: Is she taking it?
      • Warhawks may be eyeing Cloud and Rock.
        • War makes sacrifices at BotG in vain.
        • Humanity will be closer to extinction.
        • Akatsuki's mission of peace may prove anything but. Villages may need to stand together.
        • Hiashi's likely a warhawk. Opposes uplift ideals. Need someone to oppose him.
      • Some clanless believe "mudfoot" aren't allowed to learn medninjustu.
      • Gallow humor about taking job for few years before Naruto's ready.
    • If unwilling, who's to support?
    • Thank for her time.
 
Last edited:
Kiba said:
* Tsunade
** Be clear, direct, and mindful.
** She hates pity/manipulation and wasting time.
** Do show measured sympathy.
** Meeting:
*** Deliver Jiraiya's message.
*** Discuss broadsheet's accuracy
*** About the bid:
**** Is she taking the hat?
**** Warhawks may be eying Cloud and Rock.
* Ninja alliance's sacrifice at BotG will be in vain.
* Another nail in the coffin for humanity
* Akatsuki's mission of peace through the hard way might be malign.
* Need villages to cooperate with each other. If necessary, against Akatsuki.
* Hiashi may be part of warhawks faction. We need someone to oppose him.
**** Some clanless believes 'mudfoot' unable to learn medninjutsu
**** Gallow humor about needing to take job for few years before Naruto is ready.
**** If unwilling, ask who she would support.
*** Thank her for her time.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

That is barely understandable to me, and I wrote the original. Why must @faflec's version be condensed? We don't currently need wordcount for anything, and if we do, it's easy to do small edits as they're needed.

The only thing we're losing here is XP, and that's utterly irrelevant next to the real stakes. If we're going to optimize, let's optimize for the right thing - convincing Tsunade to make a bid for the hat. As such, tweaking the wording or adding contingencies would be much more useful than condensing the section.
 
Roomba said:
That is barely understandable to me, and I wrote the original. Why must @faflec's version be condensed? We don't currently need wordcount for anything, and if we do, it's easy to do small edits as they're needed.

The only thing we're losing here is XP, and that's utterly irrelevant next to the real stakes. If we're going to optimize, let's optimize for the right thing - convincing Tsunade to make a bid for the hat. As such, tweaking the wording or adding contingencies would be much more useful than condensing the section.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I fixed the formatting, made it easier to understand(While reducing wordcount!). Also, I believe terse and to the point is better than wasting words.
 
faflec said:
  • Bring Mari back inside.
    • We trust you, but need your advice on meeting with Tsunade/Naruto.
    • What were you going to do, anyway?
    • Let her do her thing afterwards.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I'm becoming unsure of that part.

On the one hand, yes, Mari's input would be useful, and if she's setting out to e. g. murder-suicide Hiashi, we better learn of it preemptively.

On the other hand, that risks an immediate relapse:
  1. She's just managed to put herself together. What would happen if we break her stride before she actually accomplishes anything with her newfound functionality? She may lose momentum entirely.
  2. Continued interactions with her may lead her to believe she's compromising us, which would plunge her back into non-functionality. Bear with me:
    • Hazou accepted responsibility for all her actions: she's currently acting on his orders, not of her own volition.
    • Consider that she likely used a similar coping strategy back when she was executing Yagura's assignments. We all know how that ended.
    • Hazou's ploy likely only worked because Mari believes that Hazou's goals are good, unlike Yagura's — she trusts Hazou to order her to stand back if he determines that she is, for example, being too evil.
    • Therefore, we should avoid doing anything which would invalidate her trust in Hazou's goodness.
    • Mari believes that she's constantly manipulating people to obey her evil whims. If we ask her for advice, or indeed talk to her for too long, there's a risk she'll convince herself she's just manipulating Hazou into supporting her. Therefore his judgment isn't good, therefore she can't trust him to hold her in check, therefore she should lock herself in a room and never talk.
    • Note how quickly she walked out on us. Maybe it's not because she's in a hurry to murder-suicide Hiashi. Maybe it's because she believes herself a walking cognitohazard and she wants to avoid contaminating us.
    • Perhaps we can't actually employ her as a strategic adviser, at least for now — only as a tactical commander, an allied free actor, or a guided missile.
Or maybe I'm on a completely wrong track here.
 
Noumero said:
I'm becoming unsure of that part.

On the one hand, yes, Mari's input would be useful, and if she's setting out to e. g. murder-suicide Hiashi, we better learn of it preemptively.

On the other hand, that risks an immediate relapse:
  1. She's just managed to put herself together. What would happen if we break her stride before she actually accomplishes anything with her newfound functionality? She may lose momentum entirely.
  2. Continued interactions with her may lead her to believe she's compromising us, which would plunge her back into non-functionality. Bear with me:
    • Hazou accepted responsibility for all her actions: she's currently acting on his orders, not of her own volition.
    • Consider that she likely used a similar coping strategy back when she was executing Yagura's assignments. We all know how that ended.
    • Hazou's ploy likely only worked because Mari believes that Hazou's goals are good, unlike Yagura's — she trusts Hazou to order her to stand back if he determines that she is, for example, being too evil.
    • Therefore, we should avoid doing anything which would invalidate her trust in Hazou's goodness.
    • Mari believes that she's constantly manipulating people to obey her evil whims. If we ask her for advice, or indeed talk to her for too long, there's a risk she'll convince herself she's just manipulating Hazou into supporting her. Therefore his judgment isn't good, therefore she can't trust him to hold her in check, therefore she should lock herself in a room and never talk.
    • Note how quickly she walked out on us. Maybe it's not because she's in a hurry to murder-suicide Hiashi. Maybe it's because she believes herself a walking cognitohazard and she wants to avoid contaminating us.
    • Perhaps we can't actually employ her as a strategic adviser, at least for now — only as a tactical commander, an allied free actor, or a guided missile.
Or maybe I'm on a completely wrong track here.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

We need to know what she's going to do in 15 second flats, not to question her decision.
 
Roomba said:
This part lost quite a bit to its detriment, I think. The problem is not only that Leaf specifically might lose, but that the whole village system might collapse if the major villages are weakened enough. The Akatsuki point is a really strong argument as well, though contingent on Hazou knowing about them. Finally, I think that final point should either stay as is or become more descriptive - the idea is to reference Hazou's conversation with the clanless during the journey back, and I expect him to elaborate on this point on his own. I don't think your redaction achieves this.

Seems fine otherwise.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Mm.

Condensation Revision II said:
  • Be cognizant:
    • Show measured sympathy
      • She just lost her teammates.
      • She hates pity.
    • Let her vent.
    • She dislikes wasting time.
  • Attitude: Be respectful, firm, and serious. Don't aggress, don't retreat.
  • Meeting:
    • Deliver Jiraiya's message.
    • Offer condolences.
    • We're planning to adopt Naruto, as Jiraiya wanted. Is he OK for visitors?
    • Discuss the broadsheet's accuracy.
    • Is she going for the hat?
      • WW4 must be avoided.
        • Someone's preparing for war against Rock/Cloud.
        • Win or lose, in the fighting the villages will exhaust their remaining strength and collapse soon after.
        • Dying villages will launch vengeance missions on civilians and their fields.
        • Then disease will set in.
      • This is the greatest chance for lasting peace in the EN.
        • For the first time in recorded history, all village ninja fought together.
      • Additionally: Hazou's talked with clanless when returning; they don't think "mudfeet" can be mednin.
      • We need someone who can credibly oppose Hiashi.
        • She's the best candidate.
    • If she's unwilling, ask who she'd support.
    • Thank her for her time.
    • Her advice is always welcome.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Okay, so I've reworked it slightly, and I think I might be able to find the words elsewhere; point being, I ended up fluffing out and swapping out "Leaf cannot fight" to "WW4 must be avoided because it'll collapse the village system and lead to vengeance missions, then disease". I reworked that mudfeet line so that it might work a little better. I've decided to leave off Akatsuki because Tsunade is pretty much the only one who could give us the info, so we'll have to trust that Hazou can come up with it unplanned.

Plan below:
huhYeahGoodPoint said:
Mm. I'm not sold on the leading plans; a philosophical disagreement more than anything, which is pushing me to propose my own.

Word Count: 398

[X] Action Plan: Order of Operations
  • Tasks
  • Cry.
    • It's okay to cry.
    • It's not okay to stop moving forward.
    • Don't waste time drying tears.
  • Tsunade
    • Be cognizant:
      • Show measured sympathy:
        • She just lost her teammates.
        • She hates pity.
      • Let her vent.
      • She dislikes wasting time.
    • Attitude: Be respectful, firm, and serious. Don't aggress, don't retreat.
    • Meeting:
      • Deliver Jiraiya's message.
      • Offer condolences.
      • We're planning to adopt Naruto, as Jiraiya wanted. Is he OK for visitors?
      • Discuss the broadsheet's accuracy.
      • Is she going for the hat?
        • WW4 must be avoided.
          • Someone's preparing for war against Rock/Cloud.
          • Win or lose, in the fighting the villages will exhaust their remaining strength and collapse soon after.
          • Dying villages will launch vengeance missions on civilians and their fields.
          • Then disease will set in.
        • This is the greatest chance for lasting peace in the EN.
          • For the first time in recorded history, all village ninja fought together.
        • Additionally: Hazou's talked with clanless when returning; they don't think "mudfeet" can be mednin.
        • We need someone who can credibly oppose Hiashi.
          • She's the best candidate.
      • If she's unwilling, ask who she'd support.
      • Thank her for her time.
      • Her advice is always welcome.
  • Check what Jiraiya has left for Naruto.
  • Naruto
    • If Naruto is unable and/or willing to talk, hold this section.
    • Demeanor: friendly, open. Probably still crying.
    • Talk to him at earliest convenience.
    • Introduce ourselves.
    • Hand him what Jiraiya's will bequeathed to him.
    • Let him vent.
    • Explain our history when asked.
    • Jiraiya wanted us to adopt you; it's your choice.
    • Do you want to go for Hokage?
      • Relay Tsunade's anwers.
    • Nice meeting you. Hang out sometime?
  • Return to the compound
    • Read Jiraiya's will and answers.
      • Focus on whatever instructions he has for us if he's dead.
    • Review the gathered information.
    • Begin replenishing seal stock. Prioritize skywalkers.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
 
MMKII said:
I think we want to get her talking about the battle of the gods to the clanless. Mostly, telling everyone how much of a complete prick Hiashi is.

We don't want it associated with us though, then it would be lumped in with "Gouketsu bad destabilizing influence grawr"
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I got the feeling that her survival instincts were better than that though? :p
More seriously, she thought to herself that talking about USoUD and what Zabuza was going to say would probably get her killed, why do we think that's any different from talking smack about the Hokage (if he gets elected)?
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top