Speaking of which, is this a good time to point out how much effort the thread has gone to to build pro-uplift contacts with everybody except literally the only person to spontaneously say:
"Hey, the genin who brought our food said that the three of you are all clan heirs. Is that right?"
Akimichi ducked his head in embarrassment. "Yup. It's not really a big thing, though. We aren't better than anyone else just because we're clan, so what does it matter if my dad is the current head?"
[X] Action Plan: Reasonable Handling of New Information.
@Inferno Vulpix , What do you think about my suggestion of talking to Hana about Ami (if Jiraiya approves)? Also verifying Ami's favors doesn't seem very important, hell maybe Hana knows something about it, or the Mori in general that would help. Plus we could try to figure out if Hana has any insight about Ami's stance on Keiko.
Guys, please recall that Hana is still a Mist-nin and will not appreciate us asking her to reveal secrets on other Mist clans (however non-critical), especially given her status as on-thin-fucking-ice.
I would like to voice concern over interacting with Hana without putting a pretty polished plan component together.
Even if we're talking about like, cookie recipes.
I don't think she means us harm, but she has a stupidly large good relations bonus with Hazou. She could probably drown like, two more of our friends before we start actively hating her in character. We should handle with care.
Guys, please recall that Hana is still a Mist-nin and will not appreciate us asking her to reveal secrets on other Mist clans (however non-critical), especially given her status as on-thin-fucking-ice.
I wonder if Hana would be able to tell us what Ami really, really wants. Probably not. But hey, maybe. And I doubt it's secret.
That's all I really care to know. If I knew that, I could unwind Ami most of the rest of the way by working backwards.
Exalted has charms for this kind of thing that I dearly wish we had. Are there any powers in Naruto that let you look at someone and know what it is they care about, or that they really want? Or that thing that, if you gave it to them, they would do absolutely anything for in exchange? Anything like that?
Maybe a Yamanaka could do that if they mind read someone, but I can't think of any other powers that do it that I'm aware of.
(Exalted social specs have charms that do all of that but not, oddly, outright mind reading, and are extremely, extremely scary.)
Know The Soul's Price
Cost: 5m, 1wp Mins: Investigation 4, Essence 2 Type: Reflexive Keywords: Combo-OK, Servitude Duration: Instant Prerequisite Charms: Courtier's Eye Technique, Judge's Ear Technique
In the savage world that is Creation, everyone has a price. Even those whom jade coin cannot buy will sell themselves for something—sex, fame, the reclaimed honor of an ancestor or the salvation of the world. The Exalt uses this Charm immediately after interacting with a target. The Solar's player rolls (Perception + Investigation). The difficulty for this roll is 1, but subtract an external penalty of ([the target's Manipulation + Socialize] ÷ 2) from the successes on the Investigation roll. On a success, this Charm forces the target's player to declare the target's price. If the Exalt meets that price, this Charm invokes an unnatural Servitude effect—the target becomes loyal to the Exalt and must spend one Willpower per scene to act in a knowingly disloyal fashion. This servitude lasts until the Exalt betrays the bargain—as by reclaiming an object given as the price—or the target has spent a total of 10 Willpower to act disloyally.
[X] Action Plan: It's Kinda Sorta The Other Plan But With Shopping and Socializing
Not sure what the point about trying to help Keiko with her match is though. The suggestion is pretty obvious and we have no idea who she is even fighting.
Remnant from before Velorien posted the Shika "match"?
I wonder if Hana would be able to tell us what Ami really, really wants. Probably not. But hey, maybe. And I doubt it's secret.
That's all I really care to know. If I knew that, I could unwind Ami most of the rest of the way by working backwards.
Exalted has charms for this kind of thing that I dearly wish we had. Are there any powers in Naruto that let you look at someone and know what it is they care about, or that they really want? Or that thing that, if you gave it to them, they would do absolutely anything for in exchange? Anything like that?
Maybe a Yamanaka could do that if they mind read someone, but I can't think of any other powers that do it that I'm aware of.
(Exalted social specs have charms that do all of that but not, oddly, outright mind reading, and are extremely, extremely scary.)
Know The Soul's Price
Cost: 5m, 1wp Mins: Investigation 4, Essence 2 Type: Reflexive Keywords: Combo-OK, Servitude Duration: Instant Prerequisite Charms: Courtier's Eye Technique, Judge's Ear Technique
In the savage world that is Creation, everyone has a price. Even those whom jade coin cannot buy will sell themselves for something—sex, fame, the reclaimed honor of an ancestor or the salvation of the world. The Exalt uses this Charm immediately after interacting with a target. The Solar's player rolls (Perception + Investigation). The difficulty for this roll is 1, but subtract an external penalty of ([the target's Manipulation + Socialize] ÷ 2) from the successes on the Investigation roll. On a success, this Charm forces the target's player to declare the target's price. If the Exalt meets that price, this Charm invokes an unnatural Servitude effect—the target becomes loyal to the Exalt and must spend one Willpower per scene to act in a knowingly disloyal fashion. This servitude lasts until the Exalt betrays the bargain—as by reclaiming an object given as the price—or the target has spent a total of 10 Willpower to act disloyally.
This feels like it simultaneously treats people as too complicated and too simple. On one hand, looking at past history usually tells you enough to predict them in the future; on the other hand, people are often very bad at pursuing stated goals and principles.
But then again, I think trying to figure people out is generally overrated, and it's usually a sign that you're trying to go through the front door instead of finding a window. Don't attack the enemy at the point of strength; even if you have to deal with one person, it's more profitable to find outside leverage and improve your general situation.
This feels like it simultaneously treats people as too complicated and too simple. On one hand, looking at past history usually tells you enough to predict them in the future; on the other hand, people are often very bad at pursuing stated goals and principles.
But then again, I think trying to figure people out is generally overrated, and it's usually a sign that you're trying to go through the front door instead of finding a window. Don't attack the enemy at the point of strength; even if you have to deal with one person, it's more profitable to find outside leverage and improve your general situation.
It's useless with irrational actors. It's fantastically useful with rational actors. If you know what a rational actor wants you can often figure out the shape of what they're going to do. If you know what they want and what they've done, you can often tease out their exact plan too.
I'm pretty sure Ami is a rational actor, albeit one who acts superficially crazy to make people unsure of her motives. She figures out what she wants and then carefully orchestrates the machinery of societies and reality to bring about her desired outcome. She treats planning like a soft martial art. Nudge here, push a little bit there, and you get the outcome you want with minimal effort and risk. It's exactly the way you'd expect someone with a hyperintelligent to the point of being nearly precognitive computer at their beck and call to operate.
You know, I bet it'd be revealing to ask her how she beat up the Voice.
I swear to the brush of all sages- wehaveanAkimichiwehaveanAkimichiwehaveanAkimichi
Why is the most monitored clan in the Elemental Nations trying to pull off a disguise in the middle of a forewarned hostile police state instead of trading a trivial favor to somebody for whom it would be literally more suspicious if they weren't making inquiries about restaurants?
It's useless with irrational actors. It's fantastically useful with rational actors. If you know what a rational actor wants you can often figure out the shape of what they're going to do. If you know what they want and what they've done, you can often tease out their exact plan too.
I'm pretty sure Ami is a rational actor, albeit one who acts superficially crazy to make people unsure of her motives. She figures out what she wants and then carefully orchestrates the machinery of societies and reality to bring about her desired outcome. She treats planning like a soft martial art. Nudge here, push a little bit there, and you get the outcome you want with minimal effort and risk. It's exactly the way you'd expect someone with a hyperintelligent to the point of being nearly precognitive computer at their beck and call to operate.
You know, I bet it'd be revealing to ask her how she beat up the Voice.
Rule of thumb: the more rational your fiction, the fewer rational actors it should have. Consider her life circumstances--child soldier, an elite at 18, hooked up to WeaponizedDepression.exe from birth, raised in a clan of people full of the same, rose to prominence in a village raised by a psychotic paranoid despot--and ask yourself, is it that a situation conducive to strong mental health? Then ask yourself, do even successful, happy people raised in a world as comparatively kind as our own generally have strong cognitive hygiene at that age?
I'm not saying we shouldn't treat her as basically a ruthless optimizer. I'm saying that, statistically, some aspect of her worldview is almost certainly warped, distorted, or maybe just straight-up wrong, because being wrong in that way makes you more likely to not die. (Kagome is an excellent example, by virtue of being a hilariously obvious outlier.) When you start out at a level as high as "what does this person really want?", you're almost certain to pass through that sort of cracked lens, and that means any model based off of a perfectly sane person is going to be wrong.
If you want to analyze her, stick to past behavior and the short unfiltered glimpse we were given into her thoughts, then throw all of it right out the window and try to find some easier approach that'll get your desired results. There's a reason the people interested in getting Hazou to marry her are trying to get the Kages to do it for us.
Rule of thumb: the more rational your fiction, the fewer rational actors it should have. Consider her life circumstances--child soldier, an elite at 18, hooked up to WeaponizedDepression.exe from birth, raised in a clan of people full of the same, rose to prominence in a village raised by a psychotic paranoid despot--and ask yourself, is it that a situation conducive to strong mental health? Then ask yourself, do even successful, happy people raised in a world as comparatively kind as our own generally have strong cognitive hygiene at that age?
I'm not saying we shouldn't treat her as basically a ruthless optimizer. I'm saying that, statistically, some aspect of her worldview is almost certainly warped, distorted, or maybe just straight-up wrong, because being wrong in that way makes you more likely to not die. (Kagome is an excellent example, by virtue of being a hilariously obvious outlier.) When you start out at a level as high as "what does this person really want?", you're almost certain to pass through that sort of cracked lens, and that means any model based off of a perfectly sane person is going to be wrong.
If you want to analyze her, stick to past behavior and the short unfiltered glimpse we were given into her thoughts, then throw all of it right out the window and try to find some easier approach that'll get your desired results. There's a reason the people interested in getting Hazou to marry her are trying to get the Kages to do it for us.
Serious threats to somebody's welfare are problematic no matter where you go. That the threats should be of a physical nature, however, is a detail ninja would tend to shrug off. What's strange about someone who has lived and breathed violence since early childhood turning to force as their method of asserting domination?
In terms of the threat element, all things are relative. Siblings using intimidation to keep each other in line isn't healthy, and if it becomes your default form of interaction it's certainly dysfunctional, but it still falls within the acceptable limits of a society that teaches its children that every outsider is a potential target for manipulation and/or murder. Now if you act on those threats to an extent that inhibits the victim's ability to carry out missions, then you are within the domain of criminal responsibility.
@Velorien The latest chapter was titled Round 2 (quarters), match 4. But wasn't match 4 Shino vs Ino, with Keiko vs Shikamaru Round 3 (semis)? So shouldn't it be "Round 3, Match 1"? Unless the title wasn't referring to the tournament, of course. On an unrelated note, I can't stop thinking of the Shino and Ino match as "(Sh + 1)Ino
I can tell you, in strict confidence, that their name ends with "no", but further details are still under discussion. The latter fight hasn't happened yet.
Jokes aside that's how I'm imagining Shikimaru, just pure internal screaming and utter comfusion. I like to think that he has all this plans and ideas going on in his head and keiko throwing that kunai at him just made it all freeze up like a record scratch in his head.
I can tell you, in strict confidence, that their name ends with "no", but further details are still under discussion. The latter fight hasn't happened yet.
So, Ino is still in tournament until proved otherwise. Should we actually hang out with our sister's competition?
The same goes to Choji plan: he really is a good fella and asking him to go restaurant-hunting is a good idea, but will it be OK to ask him for favor right now? He can decline free lunch and ask for something that will compromise Keiko's victory
I don't feel it's appropriate to condone Keiko setting Hazō on fire. He wouldn't have done that to her. It was a dick move that didn't need to be done.
It's sort of different though. When Keiko did she knew Hazo would be fine with it and did it, and she was right he didn't care.
When Hazo did it he knew that this would hurt Keiko and did it anyway choosing to apologize later than ask permission he knew he wasn't going to get, and he was right she was mad. Then she started crying and that's when you all seem suprised.
No offense because this isn't meant against anyone in particular, but does it feel like a lot of the people following the thread are trying to come up with various arguments to justify to themselves that they aren't in the wrong or that Keiko is in the wrong for being angry? It's a bit ridiculous really, we knew she wouldn't want this, we knew she would be angry and likely even feel a bit betrayed with us going behind her back over something she finds so important, or at least many people brought this up for everyone to read.
I'm not trying to call people out and say I told you so, because I supported the Ami meeting and still do. What I'm saying is that meddled into this knowing that Keiko would be angry and chose to do it anyway because ultimately this helps her in the long run, or at least hopefully it does.
We have to face facts, there is no grand gesture that can be worked here, no big spontaneous family meeting to force people to talk about this, no dumb promise that we all KNOW we would break later anyway (because come on now do we not remember Akane's whole deal with us?). That's not how people work, it's a cheap fix to a complicated, inherently irrational issue between two people.
We're already in this too deep, do what we can with our current situation with Ami, try to get the sisters to talk once we finally have a good opportunity, keep supporting Keiko and showing we care, and hopefully earn her trust back. Don't just backpeddle when the going gets tough. That's all you can really do.
I suspect you are heavily underestimating how sincere the people who disagree with you are being. I'm not making a specific point here other than to be careful about your theory of mind.
As to my own trivial observations:
A. It's hard to be concerned given that much of this seems healthy.
Backpedalling and apologies are probably counterproductive; being encouraging and supporting when she expresses opinions even when we openly disagree with them is vastly better.
I don't see how it could help to reinforce the idea of disagreements being dangerous and to be avoided. Capitulating any time Keiko expresses an opinion would be a terrible idea in this regard. Hazō should try to make an environment where Keiko is able to have an opinion in a well-structured manner (aka. not just coercion).
Talk to Keiko. CCNJ, but for real this time. We didn't want to talk to Keiko at least in part because she threatens violence, literal murder in cases. It is difficult to have a conversation with her when she is only able to stably reside in the states of a) having won the argument or b) sulking about how pointless she is. Agency isn't about always getting what you want. There is a state of I want something that I do not have and that is OK that one needs to be able to inhabit in order to even have desires that do not derail you, and in order for people to handle considering your preferences in a non-zero-sum manner.
B. Deal with it Keiko
As to Keiko's object-level concerns, I don't have much sympathy. I think it's great she's expressing her preferences, but if we're funding a genocide and murdering people by the literal shipload for ambiguous future payoffs, it's pretty damn clear that we've decided to forego short-term utilions for long-term potential. Major clan politics are too important to screw with for a little bit of emotional comfort, whether this relates to Ami or the Nara.
Since there is ambiguity in some of my recent comments, here is what I take CCNJ to mean.
You should interpret what I am about to say without the lens of interpretive dance. The words used, to the best of my ability, reflect literally the message I wish to convey. What I am saying is, with only moderate room for error, a factual statement as I understand it, is phrased primarily to inform rather than convince (although the subject of conversation may still be chosen to convince you of a given point), and I am attempting to speak in a way such that your most useful state of mind is to accept what I am saying as an unbiased account of my beliefs. Alas, I have no actual jutsu that proves I am doing so, but by consistent and careful use of this declaration with people with whom I have mutual trust, I hope that this interpretation becomes believable. With exception of the untagged metaphor in the first line, this paragraph is an example of CCNJ.
My issue with Hazō's recent use is that Keiko has no reason to believe that she really is better off interpreting it as literal and unbiased, and this undermines the whole exercise.
[X] Action Plan: It's Kinda Sorta The Other Plan But With Shopping and Socializing
Not sure what the point about trying to help Keiko with her match is though. The suggestion is pretty obvious and we have no idea who she is even fighting.
Remnant from before Velorien posted the Shika "match"?
If the other semifinal match got carried out yesterday as well, then Hazou and Keiko IC should know who Keiko's finals opponent is.
Keiko is really upset at Hazou right now, so her asking Hazou for strategy advice is non-obvious. I figured putting it explicitly in the plan should show Hazou willing to reach out and be helpful to Keiko, and the particulars (such as what tactics we recommend) can be specified once OOC we know who Keiko's fighting and IC whether or not she wants our help.
It's also being used to try and set the tone of what we do in the morning while Jiraiya's away and how we treat Keiko given the beef she has with us.
It is, and I discounted it due to the fact that Keiko would have Severe Consequences and thus be unfit to fight, leaving her as the weak point of the fight. Not something I would want to have to deal with.
