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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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faflec said:
My response was a general indication of worry and was not directed at you in particular. I merely wanted the thread as a whole to be aware of the need to actually talk to her in the course of our planning.
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I'm quite fine with that.

faflec said:
I apologize for any insult that I may have given you, however unknowingly.
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Hey don't patronize me , clown! *rage rage rage* /s

NB: Despite pointedness of my response I am not insulted and/or offended and/or emotionally engaged. Likewise the above is clearly a joke. I AM VERY FUNNY PLEASE LAUGH THANK YOU. I apologize if the original response came off as hostile, though (and please correct me if I'm wrong) I'm not sure if you actually viewed it that way or were just being courteous on the off chance I was actually insulted, similar to this little diatribe I'm doing on the off chance that that response came off hostile. Bah. Words words words.

(Although, I should mention that this particular statement would actually annoy me a bit, were I not convinced you were quite sincere about it. In general, a quick apology over possible insults could be taken as an insult itself: signalling that the other party is in fact acting as if they are grievously insulted or what have you. Fuck, aren't people complicated? This is so much easier with body language and facial expressions.)
 
Cariyaga said:
She seems to disagree, and I'd argue that her opinion on the subject is the one that matters.
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I don't believe in relative truth. People believe all sorts of nutso things they are completely, objectively, provably wrong about. Keiko can feel betrayed, and that's up to her, but whether she was actually betrayed is something entirely independent of her feelings on the matter.

If someone feels betrayed and attempts to murder you because you, I don't know, sat in their favorite seat at their favorite restaurant, does that mean their opinion is the only one that matters, or are they just nuts?

Cariyaga said:
Clearly, other people disagree that we have no fault in the matter. Many of us anticipated this result, and we went through with it regardless.

It probably isn't considered such in ninjaland, no.
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People acting in predictably irrational ways doesn't make their actions cease being irrational. Anticipated irrationality doesn't make the irrationality less irrational. This isn't a good argument that what we did was somehow objectively wrong, only that it was subjectively upsetting to Keiko's feelings and this was predictable, which is true but doesn't actually mean that we betrayed her. We upset her feelings of exclusive ownership over her sister, but that's not the same thing as betrayal. We did not stab her in the back, we did not steal from her, we did not sabotage her or harm her. Those are betrayals. Talking her her sister, and not even about her? Please.
 
Noumero said:
Hmm, didn't Keiko also agree to meet with Anna at some point after returning to Mist? What came of that, @eaglejarl, @Velorien, @OliWhail?
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It is a thing that is supposed to happen. However, Keiko's had a lot on her mind lately (and QMs have had a lot of other more immediate Fun Stuff to write). Hopefully we'll get to it before it's too late. If not, flashback might be the way to go.
 
Cariyaga said:
She seems to disagree, and I'd argue that her opinion on the subject is the one that matters.
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She mostly (not totally, but still) overreacted, Keiko even acknowledge this at the end of her outburst. Yes, she is hurt and we should do something about this, but stopping us from talking to Ami is not a right she has.

She was mostly angered and furious at Hazou because something he did suddenly caused a marriage arrangement(not totaly real) between Ami and Hazou. Under normal circumstances she would have laughed and made fun of the idea.

Cariyaga said:
It should, yes.
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Right, then what do you think of the Leaf-Mist alliance we could make with Ami and Jiraiya's analysis (regardless of Keiko's feelings)? It does sound like Ami is the best possible match we can get.

Inferno Vulpix said:
The blankets and stuff aren't needed for the letter we send, we can include that in the actual meeting plan if it happens.
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Part of your Plan is to help with the next match, that would be the Keiko vs Shikamaru one if I remember the timeline correctly (we don't need to do that anymore).

We also don't really need to verify her claims, we could just start to prepare for the date.

faflec said:
Sorry I'm trying to lighten the mood please don't eat me.
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How about a magic trick?
 
TaliesinSkye said:
I don't believe in relative truth. People believe all sorts of nutso things they are completely, objectively, provably wrong about. Keiko can feel betrayed, and that's up to her, but whether she was actually betrayed is something entirely independent of her feelings on the matter.

If someone feels betrayed and attempts to murder you because you, I don't know, sat in their favorite seat at their favorite restaurant, does that mean their opinion is the only one that matters, or are they just nuts?


People acting in predictably irrational ways doesn't make their actions cease being irrational. Anticipated irrationality doesn't make the irrationality less irrational. This isn't a good argument that what we did was somehow objectively wrong, only that it was subjectively upsetting to Keiko's feelings and this was predictable, which is true but doesn't actually mean that we betrayed her. We upset her feelings of exclusive ownership over her sister, but that's not the same thing as betrayal. We did not stab her in the back, we did not steal from her, we did not sabotage her or harm her. Those are betrayals. Talking her her sister, and not even about her? Please.
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Betrayal as a concept is, in itself, relative. It is not a matter for which believing in the absolute nature of reality has any bearing.

Obviously, they're nuts. But if someone has longstanding issues with agency that you ignore in pursuit of X, don't be surprised when they get the idea that you value X over them.
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ContextBot said:
Right, then what do you think of the Leaf-Mist alliance we could make with Ami and Jiraiya's analysis (regardless of Keiko's feelings)? It does sound like Ami is the best possible match we can get.
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I mean, yes, but also Ami's terrifying and I don't want Hazou anywhere near her in the long term unless she starts opening up which I don't see happening.

Consider also: Keiko was closest to Ami out of her immediate family. Consider the issues Keiko has that can be traced back to her family.
 
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What if we go to that bar with the flaming drinks and strippers?

That should fix things, right?
 
Velorien said:
It is a thing that is supposed to happen. However, Keiko's had a lot on her mind lately (and QMs have had a lot of other more immediate Fun Stuff to write). Hopefully we'll get to it before it's too late. If not, flashback might be the way to go.
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Excellent. Just making sure you didn't forget about this particular subplot, so ripe with intriguingly terrific possibilities.
 
ContextBot said:
Part of your Plan is to help with the next match, that would be the Keiko vs Shikamaru one if I remember the timeline correctly (we don't need to do that anymore).

We also don't really need to verify her claims, we could just start to prepare for the date.
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Keiko's still got the finals left, right? The Yamanaka v. Aburame match already happened, and I believe the other semifinal would've happened the same day as Keiko's, too, so we should know who her finals opponent is and can help her prepare for that.

Verifying Ami's claims... yeah, it isn't that important, but we did say we wanted to do it, and if we're doing it we should probably get it done before the second date. It'd also be a bit premature to try and prepare for the date since we don't know if Jiraiya approves of what we have planned, so I don't see much to be gained by attempting so early.
 
faflec said:
...who is the 'we' here?
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Everyone that's in need of a break.

By my count:

The Sand Genin
Kiba
Hotsprings Guy
Team Uplift
Jiraiya
Ren
Hana
Announcer # 2.

Probably Hinata too?

Although in the interests of transparency, I would try to twist this therapeutic night out into another opportunity to maliciously increase Ren's weekly willow bark expenses.

E: Oh. And the QM's, their currently non-existent CftG selves and anyone in the playerbase who wants to go (plan writers get extended happy hour, didn't you hear??)
 
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Inferno Vulpix said:
Verifying Ami's claims... yeah, it isn't that important, but we did say we wanted to do it, and if we're doing it we should probably get it done before the second date. It'd also be a bit premature to try and prepare for the date since we don't know if Jiraiya approves of what we have planned, so I don't see much to be gained by attempting so early.
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Do you believe that Velorien does not plan to write the date in the next update, and that he would not write the date irrespective of our preparations for it? :p
 
HOLY SHIT KEIKO'S HAD A BREAKTHROUGH

h o l y s h i t

Listen, people.

Tools do not have emotions. Tools do not have opinions. Ever since we first met her, Keiko has been thinking of herself as a broken tool - never good enough for the purposes people want to put her to.

A lot of this is from the Frozen Skein's drawback - the "inability" to plan or be creative. But Keiko's been noticeably improving on that front recently - note her plan with the camoflague cloak.

I've been wondering what "bloodline mastery" means on Keiko's character sheet. I suspect this is part of it - the ability to circumvent the Frozen Skein's fatalism and acquire agency despite it. And that means that now, she can finally stop.

She can stop thinking of herself as a tool that has to passively accept the uses she's put to. That was and has always been a deeply flawed coping mechanism woven around the underlying mental problem - and now that she can deal with the underlying problem, it's been broken.

There's going to be some ugliness in the aftermath - things like this are never pretty - but Keiko just did something that a year ago she would have thought of as literally impossible.

The next part - needs someone who'll understand that. If Kagome was available I'd be calling him in on this. As it stands... Ami or Jaraiya, ideally Jaraiya.

I predict that:
- Keiko will be intensely lost after this. She's just broken one of her fundamental beliefs about her own identity, and in the process she's learned some ugly things: the fact that she's been using the Frozen Skein as an excuse/coping mechanism is going to be a lot clearer to her, now that she knows that she can make major decisions on her own.
- Once she deals with that fear, and finds a new coping mechanism, she's going to try and make a hard break from her past habits, essentially "exiling" the part of her she doesn't like. Probably this will involve refusal to use the Frozen Skein.
- This will go badly wrong and hurt her, because she still has the Frozen Skein, and it's not going to go away that easily. She can't just reject it entirely - nor can she reject the part of her that exists to protect her from it.
- Once she has that realization, she ought to be able to accept the Frozen Skein as part of herself, integrating it more fully. This will improve her ability to manage it, her self-confidence, and her overall emotional awareness and health. It'll be a hard process, but this will be a good thing in the end.

Our job is to make sure she gets that far without dying.
 
@Velorien

The latest chapter was titled Round 2 (quarters), match 4. But wasn't match 4 Shino vs Ino, with Keiko vs Shikamaru Round 3 (semis)? So shouldn't it be "Round 3, Match 1"? Unless the title wasn't referring to the tournament, of course.

On an unrelated note, I can't stop thinking of the Shino and Ino match as "(Sh + 1)Ino"
 
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Now I'm imagining Hazou and Shikamaru in a pub...

Hazou: And then, she calls me out for not even trying to convince her... But I try to explain, and she just goes to the other extreme, blaming herself for being so compromised that I was justified in working around her. I guess I'm so used to Keiko preferring not to have to make difficult decisions most of the time, that I've been taking it for granted here as well.

Shikamaru: A plausible reflection, though only time will tell if it is accurate. For my part, I wish I had been aware of the incident in question, which I suspect may have primed Keiko to view decisions made on her behalf as usurpations of her agency, even when they were intended to minimise her emotional distress. I would have adjusted my plans accordingly.

Hazou: Twenty-twenty hindsight, eh? I'll drink to that. [raises glass]

Shikamaru: To twenty-twenty hindsight! [raises glass]

Barmaid: To twenty-twenty hindsight! [raises glass]

Hazou: Ami?
 
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Evenstar said:
A lot of this is from the Frozen Skein's drawback - the "inability" to plan or be creative. But Keiko's been noticeably improving on that front recently - note her plan with the camoflague cloak.
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Point of order, we have no information saying she came up with that herself. She obviously wouldn't have consulted us for tactical ideas against us, but she could have easily consulted Noburi or Jiraiya or someone else with tactical insight, and not tell us because why would you tell your opponent something like that?

It's possible she came up with that herself. It's also possible that someone else came up with it for her. It's also possible that Hazou came up with the idea a while ago and told her and now she's just taking it out of storage. We don't know right now.
 
Hello. Day has come to an end, and so did my batch of work on the wiki.
Stuff was done, both small and big.

Starting with minor additions and changes:
-Redirects and renaming of various pages. It's no longer Konohage, but Leaf. Both will work. Same for Kurosawa Hazou and Hazou, etc.
-Some more info on Ami.
-Basic descriptions of our kids (taken from Jiraiya's notes).
-Starting to rename kids to their new names. It's Gōketsu now, get used to it.
-Some suggestions for new plan pages. Socials is a massive topic, so focusing on stuff like repairing Keiko's situation seems like a good idea.
-Hana got a page. Nothing fancy, but it's there.

Then there are bigger changes:
-There's a page for the Mori Clan now.
-Frozen Skein got an update to the FATE system, as well as few additions.
-Iron Nerve got a few additions, regarding it's more exotic uses.
-A new and improved template for Ninja. "Basic_Ninja_Template" should be gradually replaced by... "Ninja_Template". It has more fields and slightly better organized layout.

If you have about an hour of free time, and have an MfD topic that caught your fancy, please help out and add a page or edit, or maybe provide a reference to some of the stuff there.
There's lots to do, and whole areas remain completely untouched for now (like Pangolin, or anything about our main cast).
This wiki can get a new life, and again- it's easier to navigate than dozen google docs we've got.
 
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Evenstar said:
HOLY SHIT KEIKO'S HAD A BREAKTHROUGH

h o l y s h i t

Listen, people.

Tools do not have emotions. Tools do not have opinions. Ever since we first met her, Keiko has been thinking of herself as a broken tool - never good enough for the purposes people want to put her to.

A lot of this is from the Frozen Skein's drawback - the "inability" to plan or be creative. But Keiko's been noticeably improving on that front recently - note her plan with the camoflague cloak.

I've been wondering what "bloodline mastery" means on Keiko's character sheet. I suspect this is part of it - the ability to circumvent the Frozen Skein's fatalism and acquire agency despite it. And that means that now, she can finally stop.

She can stop thinking of herself as a tool that has to passively accept the uses she's put to. That was and has always been a deeply flawed coping mechanism woven around the underlying mental problem - and now that she can deal with the underlying problem, it's been broken.

There's going to be some ugliness in the aftermath - things like this are never pretty - but Keiko just did something that a year ago she would have thought of as literally impossible.

The next part - needs someone who'll understand that. If Kagome was available I'd be calling him in on this. As it stands... Ami or Jaraiya, ideally Jaraiya.

I predict that:
- Keiko will be intensely lost after this. She's just broken one of her fundamental beliefs about her own identity, and in the process she's learned some ugly things: the fact that she's been using the Frozen Skein as an excuse/coping mechanism is going to be a lot clearer to her, now that she knows that she can make major decisions on her own.
- Once she deals with that fear, and finds a new coping mechanism, she's going to try and make a hard break from her past habits, essentially "exiling" the part of her she doesn't like. Probably this will involve refusal to use the Frozen Skein.
- This will go badly wrong and hurt her, because she still has the Frozen Skein, and it's not going to go away that easily. She can't just reject it entirely - nor can she reject the part of her that exists to protect her from it.
- Once she has that realization, she ought to be able to accept the Frozen Skein as part of herself, integrating it more fully. This will improve her ability to manage it, her self-confidence, and her overall emotional awareness and health. It'll be a hard process, but this will be a good thing in the end.

Our job is to make sure she gets that far without dying.
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That's some Persona shit. I dig it.
 
Evenstar said:
HOLY SHIT KEIKO'S HAD A BREAKTHROUGH

h o l y s h i t

Listen, people.

Tools do not have emotions. Tools do not have opinions. Ever since we first met her, Keiko has been thinking of herself as a broken tool - never good enough for the purposes people want to put her to.

A lot of this is from the Frozen Skein's drawback - the "inability" to plan or be creative. But Keiko's been noticeably improving on that front recently - note her plan with the camoflague cloak.

I've been wondering what "bloodline mastery" means on Keiko's character sheet. I suspect this is part of it - the ability to circumvent the Frozen Skein's fatalism and acquire agency despite it. And that means that now, she can finally stop.

She can stop thinking of herself as a tool that has to passively accept the uses she's put to. That was and has always been a deeply flawed coping mechanism woven around the underlying mental problem - and now that she can deal with the underlying problem, it's been broken.

There's going to be some ugliness in the aftermath - things like this are never pretty - but Keiko just did something that a year ago she would have thought of as literally impossible.

The next part - needs someone who'll understand that. If Kagome was available I'd be calling him in on this. As it stands... Ami or Jaraiya, ideally Jaraiya.

I predict that:
- Keiko will be intensely lost after this. She's just broken one of her fundamental beliefs about her own identity, and in the process she's learned some ugly things: the fact that she's been using the Frozen Skein as an excuse/coping mechanism is going to be a lot clearer to her, now that she knows that she can make major decisions on her own.
- Once she deals with that fear, and finds a new coping mechanism, she's going to try and make a hard break from her past habits, essentially "exiling" the part of her she doesn't like. Probably this will involve refusal to use the Frozen Skein.
- This will go badly wrong and hurt her, because she still has the Frozen Skein, and it's not going to go away that easily. She can't just reject it entirely - nor can she reject the part of her that exists to protect her from it.
- Once she has that realization, she ought to be able to accept the Frozen Skein as part of herself, integrating it more fully. This will improve her ability to manage it, her self-confidence, and her overall emotional awareness and health. It'll be a hard process, but this will be a good thing in the end.

Our job is to make sure she gets that far without dying.
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Saw that too. I suspect the breakthrough (what Ami calls ascending) leads to a person developing their own desires and then plans to accomplish them by manipulating the world as needed, using the frozen skein to do it. Metaphorically unfreezing the threads, perhaps. This could be a good thing if Keiko decides she wants what we want, or a bad thing if she decides she doesn't want what we want at all.
 
Evenstar said:
note her plan with the camoflague cloak.
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It should be noted that when a player commented that that plan was suspiciously creative of her, that EJ responded "Intriguing, isn't it?". This could either be QM trolling, QMs not wanting to argue over an inconsistency, or Keiko asked someone else (such as Jiraiya or Shikamaru) for a plan to beat Hazou, and then mitigated its flaws but did not add any creative input herself. Take your pick, but "Kei being creative" is not the only possible explanation.
 
Pahan said:
Now I'm imagining Hazou and Shikamaru in a pub...

Hazou: And then, she calls me out for not even trying to convince her... But I try to explain, and she just goes to the other extreme, blaming herself for being so compromised that I was justified in working around her. I guess I'm so used to Keiko preferring not to have to make difficult decisions most of the time, that I've been taking it for granted here as well.

Shikamaru: A plausible reflection, though only time will tell if it is accurate. On my part, I wish I had been aware of the incident in question, which I suspect may have primed Keiko to view decisions made on her behalf as usurpations of her agency, even when they were intended to minimise her emotional distress. I would have adjusted my plans accordingly.

Hazou: Twenty-twenty hindsight, eh? I'll drink to that. [raises glass]

Shikamaru: To twenty-twenty hindsight! [raises glass]

Barmaid: To twenty-twenty hindsight! [raises glass]

Hazou: Ami?
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I wish we could canonize this.
 
MadScientist said:
It should be noted that when a player commented that that plan was suspiciously creative of her, that EJ responded "Intriguing, isn't it?". This could either be QM trolling, QMs not wanting to argue over an inconsistency, or Keiko asked someone else (such as Jiraiya or Shikamaru) for a plan to beat Hazou, and then mitigated its flaws but did not add any creative input herself. Take your pick, but "Kei being creative" is not the only possible explanation.
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Keiko has been creative in other cases in the past.
 
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