Remove ads

Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

Voting is open for the next 13 hours, 3 minutes
Reader mode
This is great! Angry Keiko is much better than passively depressed and self-denigrating Keiko. Maybe this is the push she needs for her self-esteem to improve.

faflec said:
@Inferno Vulpix General thought: Keiko seems to think that we've betrayed her, and I really think we need to get on top of that. Like RIGHT NOW.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

We did betray her, and can't fix it easily. At best, we can convince Noburi to talk to her. Honestly, this is probably for the best, given how our recent attempts to help Keiko have gone in general.

We focus on getting Ami to admit she faked cutting ties with Keiko, we get the clan financially stable enough to renegotiate the Pangolin deal, and let the fruits of our actions speak for themselves.
 
Last edited:
TaliesinSkye said:
How do we convince Keiko that we didn't betray her and just wanted to save her the pain of having to think about Ami, though? It seems like she'll interpret anything in the worst possible way right now.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Just a thought. She doesn't seem to hear us, so how about we show her. Make up the situation when she will be forced to ignore someone's agency in order to not hurt them. Also, the same can be done to show her someone who has low self-esteem, so Keiko'll get an outside view.

Though, I cannot imagine anyone with self-esteem as low as Keiko's.
 
Last edited:
Velorien said:
​
Kei nodded apathetically. She had just been betrayed by one of the eight people she trusted, compelled to sever her remaining ties with a second, and was about to be forced to inflict pain and humiliation on the third. All of it her fault. All of it avoidable. Even this battle she could have forfeited with little consequence were the clan's position stronger—something with which she could have assisted had she not selfishly wasted time on childish romance.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
So who are the eight people?
  1. Hazō
  2. Noburi
  3. Mari
  4. Kagome
  5. Jiraiya?
  6. Tenten?
  7. Shikamaru?
  8. Ami?
Also wow, I didn't realize she was blaming herself for Hazo's choice to not tell her on my first read.
 
I don't really feel like Angry Keiko is the path away from depressed low-self-esteem Keiko. Anger and sadness are closely related emotions, so arguably her emotional state hasn't even changed much, but more than that this doesn't seem like righteous anger against the wrongs of the world as much as her lashing out in her pain.

I bet in an update or two Keiko will be just as depressed as ever, unfortunately, except with the extra guilt that she lashed out at Shikamaru because of her own failings.
 
I believe that actions will speak louder than words here, as they often do.

Any attempts to solve these very major problems with a conversation or two are doomed to failure at best, and even irreversibly damaging to a relationship in a worst case scenario.
 
I'm a bit worried about just doing stuff since it would seem to Keiko that we're again ignoring her agency to do things, even if they are intended for her benefit.

Which means that whatever we end up doing we have to talk to her about it.
 
MMKII said:
I believe that actions will speak louder than words here, as they often do.

Any attempts to solve these very major problems with a conversation or two are doomed to failure at best, and even irreversibly damaging to a relationship in a worst case scenario.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
If Mari was here (and back to her old self) I think she could keep Keiko from withdrawing too far into her anguish. As it is I'm legitimately worried the only reason Keiko isn't contemplating suicide is because she knows she's too important and dying would be her greatest failure yet.
 
faflec said:
I'm a bit worried about just doing stuff since it would seem to Keiko that we're again ignoring her agency to do things, even if they are intended for her benefit.

Which means that whatever we end up doing we have to talk to her about it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I never said we will just be doing stuff, nor that we would do things without her permission.

Im simply trying to derail any quickly bashed together attempts to fix this with a seemingly innocous and considerate conversation, that ultimately is hollow and meainingless due to lack of any substance.

See: anything like that post-4th event conversation we had with Akane.
 
zxzx24 said:
Y'all totally did betray Keiko.

Just to be clear. It was motivated by social idiocy and Ami, rather than malice.

But still.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I'm sorry, but Keiko doesn't have a right to dictate to Hazou who he can talk to ahead of time. That's asking someone else to sacrifice their own agency to please you, an act of hypocrisy. Fuck that. Hazou could have informed her ahead of time, but did not do so because it would hurt Keiko, an act of compassion. That's not morally reprehensible either.

Keiko feels like she owns Ami, and that Hazou usurped that ownership without her permission. The thing is, nobody owns somebody else. That's an unreasonable position. Keiko is being unreasonable here because she's motivated by powerful emotions. Understandable emotions, but Keiko's feelings don't make a reasonable action a betrayal in fact.

Keiko actually realizes all of this at the end of her conversation with Hazou, but the rational realization didn't resolve her emotional turmoil. She needs help with the emotions.

Arguably what Shikamaru did without consulting her was a betrayal, since going public about an engagement is an awfully big step to take without asking your intended.
 
Last edited:
Ah, Mist.

The place where Ami cut ties with Keiko.
The site of Akane cutting down her tie with Hazou.
The village we got cut off from because of Mari.

It's like the opposite of Paris, isn't it? It's the city of broken hearts.
 
TaliesinSkye said:
I'm sorry, but Keiko doesn't have a right to dictate to Hazou who he can talk to ahead of time. That's asking someone else to sacrifice their own agency to please you, an act of hypocrisy. Fuck that. Hazou could have informed her ahead of time, but did not do so because it would hurt Keiko, an act of compassion. That's not morally reprehensible either.

Keiko feels like she owns Ami, and that Hazou usurped that ownership without her permission. The thing is, nobody owns somebody else. That's an unreasonable position. Keiko is being unreasonable here because she's motivated by powerful emotions. Understandable emotions, but Keiko's feelings don't make a reasonable action a betrayal in fact.

Keiko actually realizes all of this at the end of her conversation with Hazou, but the rational realization didn't resolve her emotional turmoil. She needs help with the emotions.

Arguably what Shikamaru did without consulting her was a betrayal, since going public about an engagement is an awfully big step to take without asking your intended.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

You forget to mention that threatening physical harm is funny and in no way abusive behavior.
 
MMKII said:
I never said we will just be doing stuff, nor that we would do things without her permission.

Im simply trying to derail any quickly bashed together attempts to fix this with a seemingly innocous and considerate conversation, that ultimately is hollow and meainingless due to lack of any substance.

See: anything like that post-4th event conversation we had with Akane.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
My response was a general indication of worry and was not directed at you in particular. I merely wanted the thread as a whole to be aware of the need to actually talk to her in the course of our planning. I apologize for any insult that I may have given you, however unknowingly.
 
TaliesinSkye said:
I'm sorry, but Keiko doesn't have a right to dictate to Hazou who he can talk to ahead of time. That's asking someone else to sacrifice their own agency to please you, an act of hypocrisy. Fuck that. Hazou could have informed her ahead of time, but did not do so because it would hurt Keiko, an act of compassion. That's not morally reprehensible either.

Keiko feels like she owns Ami, and that Hazou usurped that ownership without her permission. The thing is, nobody owns somebody else. That's an unreasonable position. Keiko is being unreasonable here because she's motivated by powerful emotions. Understandable emotions, but Keiko's feelings don't make a reasonable action a betrayal in fact.

Keiko actually realizes all of this at the end of her conversation with Hazou, but the rational realization didn't resolve her emotional turmoil. She needs help with the emotions.

Arguably what Shikamaru did without consulting her was a betrayal, since going public about an engagement is an awfully big step to take without asking your intended.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Clearly, other people disagree that we have no fault in the matter. Many of us anticipated this result, and we went through with it regardless.
ContextBot said:
You forget to mention that threatening physical harm is funny and in no way abusive behavior.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
It probably isn't considered such in ninjaland, no.
 
Keiko is going to be so unhappy with Ami once she finds out she did the same thing. It's... beautiful, in its own awful way.
 
Last edited:
ContextBot said:
Just wanting to point out that it's

a) Winter and cold and we should plan stuff to create heat + blankets
b) a Plan B if for whatever reason she doesn't want to leave shore
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The blankets and stuff aren't needed for the letter we send, we can include that in the actual meeting plan if it happens.

The Plan B is more interesting. I suppose we could always just talk more subtly and stuff while staying on the shore, because I can't off the top of my head think of a way to get more privacy like Earth Domes that wouldn't just be awkward and suspicious for a 'normal date'.
 
I understand Keiko less every update. Perhaps this is the boiling over of things that have been simmering for some time, and perhaps I'm too far in the "Keiko is a hypocrite" camp to see clearly, but it seems like there's nothing we can do anymore.

Ask Noburi to talk to her, do things she'd like (but ask her beforehand?), Hope things get better. That's all i see from a long time lurker's perspective.
 
It'd sure be a shame if Keiko involved herself in Mori politics and Ami could do nothing about it.
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Voting is open for the next 13 hours, 3 minutes
Remove ads
Back
Top