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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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The following is conjecture, despite the style it's written in.

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So let's look at our fundamental problem:

Keiko has no agency. Party after party keep using her as a tool or treat her as a problem to route around.

She also knows that she is valuable as an asset, be it for the pangolin, her optimization, her fighting, logistics, etc..

Likewise, she knows that one of the main motivations for people routing around her is to protect her from situations she dislikes. To her this looks like people minimizing how much they have to 'deal' with her problems. The benefit she gets looks entirely incidental, they just want a 'useful asset'.

As of late, this has had horrible consequences to things she values. (Even if it's overblown and illusory from an outside perspective). Multiple things she values at her core have just ripped themselves apart because of people making decisions for her, or presenting a biased set of options.

People forcing her into patterns, even to 'help' her will just feel like a repeat of the same phenomenon. "They're just trying to make me a more useful asset"

This is problematic, because at this point is Keiko will probably react badly to being given choices, or even open ended overtures, to help her. (She'd definitely still be in the loop about things we are doing)

I don't think we can really fix this by giving Keiko choices or control, since that isn't the problem.

What she needs to stabilize right now is time with Tenten. Who is basically the only person she thinks wants her companvy with no strings attached.

Thing is, I'm not sure if stabilizing Keiko is the best thing for her. Like she's stuck where she is mentally. Were we back at Leaf, my first priority would be to tell Tenten whatever we can (sticking to facts, not judgements) about Keiko's state. If she has anything to say, heed it; if not, just informing her is good.

The thing I'd want to do, as Hazou, is give her 1000 hours. (Using 1000 in the ye-olde way, to mean "uncountably many". Whatever version of that works in the setting) With an explanation that, "while yeah, it is a literal gift of a thousand Hazou hours. But symbolically, we want to say that we care about Keiko, and that her value function is a large part of our own."

Mind, she won't take the gesture particularly well in the moment. But doing it now will be valuable later on in the process of getting her to feel like she has agency.

I am on a phone so I don't really want to continue this train of thought right now.

Tl;dr: Agency and choice are not the same thing. Keiko needs the former, and trying to solve that by giving her the latter is inefficient.
 
Anderkent said:
This is incorrect. Keiko knows she has no moral right to Ami, and she says that herself.

What Keiko believes is:
1. She was effectively cut away / betrayed by Ami
2. She has strong feeling about her
3. Hazou knows 2, but not neccessarily 1
4. Hazou and Ami talking / cooperating hurts her feelings for fairly obvious reasons
5. Hazou can reasonably expect that she would have those feelings, which is why he didn't bring it up
6. Hazou went to have the conversation anyway

This is exactly Hazou only respecting her feelings if they align with the greater good. Whatever the greater good that we convinced Jirayia with is in this case. She has a genuine and valid grievance.
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Anderkent said:
But there was no mission here! Keiko would certainly be less hurt if it was Jirayia ordering us to talk to Ami (but why would he, instead of an actual Jonin?) - she has less expectation of Jirayia making compromises for her, rather than Hazou's decisions.



Betrayal is really about expectations. In every relationship there are some, often imprecise and nonverbal, expectations between the parties; and not fulfilling them is betrayal. Doesn't have to even be deliberate!

Concretely what was betrayed in this case was Keiko's expectation that we will not exploit her most vulnerable points. She has a couple: physical touch, privacy, Ami. Whether this expectation is fair is irrelevant, and so is whether she communicated how vulnerable she really is about Ami - but she communicated enough, because we deliberately did not bring it up with her, knowing that she would try to forbid it.
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Whether the expectation is fair is relevant because whether it's fair dictates whether other people are obligated to oblige it or not. Fair expectation? Sure, someone should go along with that. Unfair or unreasonable expectation? No, people are not obligated to go along with that.

It's really pretty simple. Keiko's feelings being genuinely hurt doesn't mean she has a genuine grievance. People's feelings get hurt by stupid nonsense all the time, and you know what? It's entirely their own fault for not figuring their own damn feelings out. They need to get their house in order and not demand that everyone else make it their problem. A conclusion Keiko came to herself once she stopped being angry long enough to think. But then she went right back to feeling betrayed, so it seems she's still wrestling with the disconnect between what she knows and what she feels.

If you live by a moral rule where other people's feelings make genuine demands on your behavior regardless of how reasonable those feelings are, then you literally make yourself the slave of all the unreasonable people in the world. Live that way if you like, but me? No fucking thanks. And a wide selection of moral philosophies overwhelmingly agree with me. I'm under no obligation to do anything of the kind. People are responsible for wrangling their own unreasonable feelings.
 
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TaliesinSkye said:
Whether the expectation is fair is relevant because whether it's fair dictates whether other people are obligated to oblige it or not. Fair expectation? Sure, someone should go along with that. Unfair or unreasonable expectation? No, people are not obligated to go along with that.

It's really pretty simple. Keiko's feelings being genuinely hurt doesn't mean she has a genuine grievance. People's feelings get hurt by stupid nonsense all the time, and you know what? It's entirely their own fault for not figuring their own damn feelings out. They need to get their house in order and not demand that everyone else make it their problem. A conclusion Keiko came to herself once she stopped being angry long enough to think. But then she went right back to feeling betrayed, so it seems she's still wrestling with the disconnect between what she knows and what she feels.

If you live by a moral rule where other people's feelings make genuine demands on your behavior regardless of how reasonable those feelings are, then you literally make yourself the slave of all the unreasonable people in the world. Live that way if you like, but me? No fucking thanks. And a wide selection of moral philosophies overwhelmingly agree with me. I'm under no obligation to do anything of the kind. People are responsible for wrangling their own unreasonable feelings.
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I agree with your position and reasoning. I also want to add that we still need Keiko as part of the group, but I don't think we can actually do something to make her situation better. I suggest we just leave her until we arrive in Leaf. Every other action I can imagine will result in making her angry and trust us less. I think she needs time to sort things out. I say we give her all the time she needs.
 
The optimal solution to Keiko's fight remains for her to just negotiate with Shikamaru before the match. Doubly so now that we know the conclusion.

I reiterate: just ask Chouji to scout the restaurants. He doesn't need a disguise. Nobody is going to bat an eye at an Akimichi asking about restaurants and suppliers. It's not just unsuspicious, it's antisuspicious.
 
@Evenstar -

I'm currently thinking that Ami thinks of the other Mori as broken. Because they let the Voices' passivity get to them, make them into tools and cold unfeeling things rather than people. Even the ones who are functional and don't fall into suicidal depression. The Voice's influence shows in the clan's role in the Mist political order as tools to others and in the way it raises its children without love and attachment.

But a few Mori learn how to turn the Voice to their ends, rather than letting the Voice change them. These Mori, the ones who ascend, they decide what they want and then play the universe like a fine instrument to get whatever it is they want. Ami may even have seized on the idea of ruling the world (if indeed that is what she actually wants, I have my doubts) because she needed some sort of plan that she wouldn't complete any time soon so there was no risk of falling to passivity and because, well, she could surely do a better job of it.

We definitely know Ami thinks she's the only one (or at least the only one presently alive) because of the line about how she alone knew what it meant that Keiko had survived. Maybe I'm wrong about what the broken/ascended dichotomy means to Ami, I am just reading between the lines here. This makes sense, though.
 
Kiba said:
I don't care much about hypocrites and blame games, but solutions.
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Who knows? Basically anything we propose could work, or it could not. If anyone here knows of a way of reliably getting through to the profoundly depressed and hurt, they should be elsewhere, becoming millionaires by selling their secret to the psychiatric profession.

It's not helpful, I know, but that's chronic mental illness for you. Even at the best of times, with all the support anyone could need, things can get bad. These are not the best of times, and Keiko's support network is currently either absent, busy trying to avert a world war, hurting her, or playing catch up to the failure cascades caused by the others.
 
Evenstar said:
EEP.

EEEEEEEP.

Ami's leak convinced the Nara.

EEEEEEEP!!!
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Hmm, I'm not so sure that's what the Nara are talking about. Ami marrying Hazou would still be Hazou and the Goketsu as an intermediary, so what they're talking about is probably more related to the Leaf/Mist alliance as a whole.

The deal the Nara made, if memory serves, took place when we first sold Skywalkers to Leaf in exchange for a clan, and that was before Leaf totally trashed Mist in the Ultimate Showdown of Ultimate Destiny and started the peace talks. The idea of Leaf and Mist allying was probably beyond the pale before that night, so Keiko would've been invaluable as an intermediary. Now that the alliance is all but guaranteed, not so much.
 
Pfff— hahaha. Did you notice this line of Shikamaru's?:
Velorien said:
"I have grown weary," Shikamaru continued, "of others believing that because apathy is my default condition, it is my only condition, and that they should therefore make all my decisions in my stead. My father, who took a wife of his choice over widespread objection, has no right to complain if I force his hand so I may do the same."
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This chapter practically consists of irony.
faflec said:
I have a solution to Keiko's problems.

We. / Kill. / Keiko.
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Do you seriously think she won't find a way to escape into the Frozen Skein at the last second, out-despair the Mori Voice, suborn it, then assume direct control of all Mori ninja and proceed to give us an eternal blood-curding intimidation-filled rant about making an ultimate affront to her agency? Alternatively, do you seriously think that Ami won't decide to take revenge by assembling a perfect mask of Keiko and letting it take control of her mind, thereby ensuring we have an A-class Keiko to worry about?

I don't think we'll be able to get out of this so easily.
 
Origami Clock said:
Who knows? Basically anything we propose could work, or it could not. If anyone here knows of a way of reliably getting through to the profoundly depressed and hurt, they should be elsewhere, becoming millionaires by selling their secret to the psychiatric profession.

It's not helpful, I know, but that's chronic mental illness for you. Even at the best of times, with all the support anyone could need, things can get bad. These are not the best of times, and Keiko's support network is currently either absent, busy trying to avert a world war, hurting her, or playing catch up to the failure cascades caused by the others.
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Maybe we could invent a seal that will allow us to enter the frozen skein and literally punch the Mori Voice in the face until it shuts up.

I bet the Mori would give us a medal, shortly before they conquered the world and optimized it.
 
MadScientist said:
Hazou signalled to Kei that he will ignore her agency if doing so appeases his goals. Whether or not we think she is being unreasonable, or a hypocrite, I think we all agree that we don't want her to feel miserable.

What actions can we take that signal the opposite? That Hazou is now willing to respect Kei's agency at the expense of his goals? And is this true?

I'm reminded of the scene in MoR when Draco describes Lucius abandoning an important meeting to take care of him when he was sick. What's the ninjaland equivalent of Lucius abandoning an important meeting? What's the agency-respecting equivalent of nursing a sick Draco? Spending large amounts of effort/money on giving Kei a non-uplift-exploitable/Hazou-will-never-ask-to-use-it power to pursue her own agenda with?

It's all too likely the case that we literally cannot do better than "Don't do it again, and time will heal the scars eventually." but I'd like to do some brainstorming first in case we do think of something appropriate.
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I think that asking her whether we can bring her up with Ami, and then respecting her opinion, might help.
 
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