Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
- Start date
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- Tags
- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard open voting
- Location
- Poland
- Pronouns
- He/Him
There is a posibility that Bloodline Mastery is a not-automatic stage of training to use her bloodline.
It's like learning to walk/run vs. learning parkour. It takes concetrated effort to get on the new level.
Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
I so know that feel!So this is kinda cruel to say but it felt sooo good to see someone else hurt Keiko unintentionallyIt's not just us!
- Location
- uk
This is incorrect. Keiko knows she has no moral right to Ami, and she says that herself.
What Keiko believes is:
1. She was effectively cut away / betrayed by Ami
2. She has strong feeling about her
3. Hazou knows 2, but not neccessarily 1
4. Hazou and Ami talking / cooperating hurts her feelings for fairly obvious reasons
5. Hazou can reasonably expect that she would have those feelings, which is why he didn't bring it up
6. Hazou went to have the conversation anyway
This is exactly Hazou only respecting her feelings if they align with the greater good. Whatever the greater good that we convinced Jirayia with is in this case. She has a genuine and valid grievance.
Noumero
Omit Needless Words
I disagree with some of the decisions you made when modifying the plan between updates. The most glaring one is the matter of the letter: time of the essence, so we should send the letter now, even if we won't have the meeting that update. Optimised rewrite follows (280 words).
- Show the letter to Jiraiya. Help him find a clean shirt. In the process, quickly confirm conclusions:
- Letter #1 was deliberately leaked through a compromised courier. Implication: Courier #2 wasn't compromised.
- Letter #2 leaves us an opportunity to go along with the marriage (if it wasn't leaked), and signals that Ami'll drop it if we won't
- Letter #1 was pretty aggressive: likely signals that she strongly prefers the former option. Testing Courier #1 was secondary.
- Tell Keiko and Noburi about Letter #2. Pre-empt concerns: this one's good news.
- Let them voice their opinions.
- Carefully ask Keiko's thoughts on the potential second meeting.
- Finally get Noburi's opinion on the situation.
- Do something calming and rote to relax. Like making explosives.
- Help Keiko plan for her fight.
- Once Jiraiya returns, discuss the situation (include Noburi and Keiko; high-OPSEC conditions):
- How long before we'll have to leave Mist?
- Second meeting with Ami:
- We should seek a honest answer regarding whether she's in danger/wants a political marriage.
- Would require better OPSEC measures. A walk across the bay followed by a picnic?
- We're a bit shaken from recent events. Any advice?
- If Jiraiya approves, send a letter. Contents:
- Decline the favour.
- Set up the second meeting.
- Place: "near" a random restaurant.
- Time: tomorrow? (Jiraiya's call.)
- If Jiraiya allows us outside:
- Watch today's matches.
- Verify Ami's story (if time permits).
- Disguise: civilian. Collaborate with Noburi. Ideas:
- Historian interested in Mist's culinary.
- Secret police.
- Visit a few restaurants. Inquire about their history, then ask about:
- Connection between Byakuren's Cookbook and Experimental Cuisine.
- Byakuren's Cookbook serving large groups of ninja.
- Byakuren's Cookbook: name-drop Ami for regulars-only menu.
- Disguise: civilian. Collaborate with Noburi. Ideas:
- If anyone talks about Hazou and Ami: no comment.
- Location
- uk
But there was no mission here! Keiko would certainly be less hurt if it was Jirayia ordering us to talk to Ami (but why would he, instead of an actual Jonin?) - she has less expectation of Jirayia making compromises for her, rather than Hazou's decisions.
Betrayal is really about expectations. In every relationship there are some, often imprecise and nonverbal, expectations between the parties; and not fulfilling them is betrayal. Doesn't have to even be deliberate!
Concretely what was betrayed in this case was Keiko's expectation that we will not exploit her most vulnerable points. She has a couple: physical touch, privacy, Ami. Whether this expectation is fair is irrelevant, and so is whether she communicated how vulnerable she really is about Ami - but she communicated enough, because we deliberately did not bring it up with her, knowing that she would try to forbid it.
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
Much thanks. I left in the bit about covering later anything we don't have time for now, but we had plenty of room left:
- Location
- Yes.
@eaglejarl @Velorien @OliWhail Out of curiosity, who won the Ino vs. Shino fight, and who won the Chouji vs. (winner of Ino vs. Shino fight) fight?
Hazou signalled to Kei that he will ignore her agency if doing so appeases his goals. Whether or not we think she is being unreasonable, or a hypocrite, I think we all agree that we don't want her to feel miserable.
What actions can we take that signal the opposite? That Hazou is now willing to respect Kei's agency at the expense of his goals? And is this true?
I'm reminded of the scene in MoR when Draco describes Lucius abandoning an important meeting to take care of him when he was sick. What's the ninjaland equivalent of Lucius abandoning an important meeting? What's the agency-respecting equivalent of nursing a sick Draco? Spending large amounts of effort/money on giving Kei a non-uplift-exploitable/Hazou-will-never-ask-to-use-it power to pursue her own agenda with?
It's all too likely the case that we literally cannot do better than "Don't do it again, and time will heal the scars eventually." but I'd like to do some brainstorming first in case we do think of something appropriate.
What actions can we take that signal the opposite? That Hazou is now willing to respect Kei's agency at the expense of his goals? And is this true?
I'm reminded of the scene in MoR when Draco describes Lucius abandoning an important meeting to take care of him when he was sick. What's the ninjaland equivalent of Lucius abandoning an important meeting? What's the agency-respecting equivalent of nursing a sick Draco? Spending large amounts of effort/money on giving Kei a non-uplift-exploitable/Hazou-will-never-ask-to-use-it power to pursue her own agenda with?
It's all too likely the case that we literally cannot do better than "Don't do it again, and time will heal the scars eventually." but I'd like to do some brainstorming first in case we do think of something appropriate.
Tua
鸡肉面条汤
- Location
- شوربة الدجاج المعكرونة
ANOTHER VOICE IN HAZOU'S HEAD: let's kiss her
ANOTHER VOICE IN HAZOU'S HEAD: are you insane?
ANOTHER VOICE IN HAZOU'S HEAD: punch her for making Keiko cry
ANOTHER VOICE IN HAZOU'S HEAD: ASK ABOUT UPLIFT!
ANOTHER VOICE IN HAZOU'S HEAD: just walk away!
ANOTHER VOICE IN HAZOU'S HEAD: KEEP. BLINKING.
ANOTHER VOICE IN HAZOU'S HEAD: close your mouth already, we aren't going to kiss her, fgs
ANOTHER VOICE IN HAZOU'S HEAD: nuh uh, we are!
ANOTHER VOICE IN HAZOU'S HEAD: I said: run!
ANOTHER VOICE IN HAZOU'S HEAD: let's propose like Shikamaru, why are we always one step behind in these things?
ANOTHER VOICE IN HAZOU'S HEAD: hey guys, I found a way to weaponize awkwardness
HAZOU: *paralyzed with indecision, closing and opening his mouth in a loop while staring at the wall behind Ami* HRNNNN!
- Location
- Yes.
So, uh, throwing this out there regarding @Inferno Vulpix's plan...should we be acting on the assumption that there'll be a second meeting with Ami? Wouldn't it be better for us to at least discuss whether or not we should first?
Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
Solemn vow on Shinji's grave?
*nods*
Solemn vow on Shinji's grave.
Origami Clock
Right twice a day
- Location
- Brighton, UK
Bear in mind, Keiko still remains profoundly mentally ill. So you also have to append those two clauses with:
Is this signal capable of penetrating the passive and active layers of self-loathing built up around Keiko's ability to realise that nice things are happening to her because she (and Hazō's relationship with her) is appreciated and deserves emotional investment in, rather than just step 11353.b(1-5) of the Hazō Plan for world Domination?
- Location
- uk
I don't think it is true. We are not going to hold all our plans hostage to Keiko's feelings. What we want to achieve is getting Keiko better, so that these offences are minor hurts rather than deep wounds.
- Location
- Potato land
Exactly! Growth mindset!
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
I mean, I'd be perfectly comfortable holding our plans hostage to her feelings, inasmuch as her feelings so seldom affect our plans that it isn't a big deal and she's one of five people who would get that small consideration.
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
Oh, right, that question was in a previous version of the plan but got lost. It's back in, with just enough room:
- Location
- uk
Bbbbut Hami
Noumero
Omit Needless Words
I've thought about that too, but I think the crucial difference here is that Draco was motivated to believe that Lucius loved him, whereas the cynical and hurt Keiko would, I assume, jump straight to "he is just trying to manipulate me because he thinks the value of my future cooperation is higher than the value of whatever it is he is sacrificing".
I guess we could do something for which the aforementioned statement is obviously incorrect, like [х] Throw the Pangolin Scroll into a Volcano, but these kinds of gestures are insane; we won't do them because, when it comes down to that, we don't value Keiko's agency as much as the fates of nations after all (also because, if we do that, Keiko's issues will be the least of our problems).
That said, I'm not completely convinced the non-insane version is unviable; indeed, I have no better ideas.
Why wouldn't we? Doesn't seem much more dangerous than the first meeting (and we could make it safer by getting a backup ANBU for ourselves too), and is much more likely to result in some actual progress. Jiraiya will likely be in favour too: one way or another, we are on the way to "solving this riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma ", just like he wanted.
Or are you suggesting to phrase it as a question to not trigger Keiko's issues?
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- Location
- Somewhere over the rainbow
lmao this is some weaksauce growth mindset
we should be aiming to surpass Naruto
- Location
- Yes.
In general, Hazou acknowledging that he's got a degree of social ineptitude, that this aspect of Hazou isn't Keiko's fault, and that in the long term all he can do is try to improve even if he's likely to fail again along the way. Human relationships are complicated, and even people who care about eachother are bound to hurt one another, but that good relationships are worth the effort.
That said, I do have an idea for a gesture that could at least show that Hazou is serious - give her sort of an IOU that would let her bypass or deny our personal agency once, in any way she chooses. She could go around us and do something we'd normally expect for her to talk to us about, she could veto a plan of ours and tell us not to do it, she could force us to do something humiliating, or whatever. Basically put the power over Hazou's agency in her hands to do with as she pleases, with Hazou doing his best not to resent it. There'd be a few caveats of course - nothing that would overly harm the clan (not that she would), or cause undue harm unto other individuals through something she has us do, or things like that. But outside of that, she could use it for something deeply personal, or something petty and silly, or just have it to lord over us for the rest of our life. This doesn't fix Hazou's issues with respecting agency and feelings, but it's something we could give her to feel like she can balance the scales without feeling like a horrible person.
Mind you, this might be a horrible idea that could backfire. I honestly am unsure how Keiko would react.
- Location
- Kiev, Ukraine