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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Didn't we bring up the idea of camouflage when assaulting the Sunset Racer? Wouldn't it have been entirely IC for Keiko to have drawn on past experiences to fight Hazou?
 
Keiko.

You want agency? Take it.

You want people to care what you think? Then make your desires known.

You want to be treated as a person, rather than an obstacle? Then move of your own accord, rather than waiting to be moved.

Stop wallowing in your own self pity. You dishonor yourself, and you waste your potential.

(It's a shame Hazou is so clueless...)
 
[X] Action Plan: Reasonable Handling of New Information.

Evenstar said:
I've been wondering what "bloodline mastery" means on Keiko's character sheet. I suspect this is part of it - the ability to circumvent the Frozen Skein's fatalism and acquire agency despite it. And that means that now, she can finally stop.
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Are you sure you don't mean --

*checks Keiko's sheet*

...the fuck? When did that get there?
 
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MMKII said:
Are you sure you don't mean --

*checks Keiko's sheet*

...the fuck? When did that get there?
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That's probably from back when we were trying to get Keiko to have Combat Frozen Skein.

IIRC, back in AugJev, Combat Frozen Skein was a skill that was capped by (among other things) the level of the Frozen Skein skill. Not sure how the Combat Frozen Skein is being modeled in FtD, though, so that skill may be just sort of sitting there.

That said, it's not impossible that it affects Keiko's ability to handle her bloodline, but if it does I can't remember hearing about that.
 
Searching for a more accurate answer...
Evenstar said:
1: Does this look appropriate for your "average jounin", (as if any such thing exists,) or like a significant misestimate?
2: Did I just duplicate work because I got nerd sniped, or is there no document where I could have looked this up?

And while I'm asking...
3: Am I right to assume at least twenty points of Thousand-Yard Stare, or is that way under-generous?
4: Holy shit, Jaraiya has upwards of forty thousand EXP, at a very conservative estimate. No wonder he's a fucking badass. This isn't a question so much as a statement, but damn.
5: Is there such a thing as a legitimately noncombat-specialty ninja, or should I assume you have to keep shoving points into your combat skills forever if you want to live?
6: About how much XP would the average clan head have? Failing that, how old is Nara Shikaku?
7: What the heck does Bloodline Mastery do?
8: Are the Wakahisa, Mori and Kurosawa bloodlines mechanically representative of what your average Bloodline can do, or are they grandfathered brokenness?
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Velorien said:
As to your questions, most can be answered with HDK, with the exception of 5 and 8.
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Yeah, HDK.
 
Inferno Vulpix said:
That's probably from back when we were trying to get Keiko to have Combat Frozen Skein.

IIRC, back in AugJev, Combat Frozen Skein was a skill that was capped by (among other things) the level of the Frozen Skein skill. Not sure how the Combat Frozen Skein is being modeled in FtD, though, so that skill may be just sort of sitting there.

That said, it's not impossible that it affects Keiko's ability to handle her bloodline, but if it does I can't remember hearing about that.
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I thought that the 30 levels in Frozen Skein were for the combat frozen skein?

So the skill "Bloodline Mastery: Frozen Skein" in the "Non-elemental jutsu" section was always there? I just haven't picked up on it being there the last however many months?
 
MMKII said:
I thought that the 30 levels in Frozen Skein were for the combat frozen skein?

So the skill "Bloodline Mastery: Frozen Skein" in the "Non-elemental jutsu" section was always there? I just haven't picked up on it being there the last however many months?
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It definitely was there as of my first Kakero omake, so as of about a month ago. Before that IDK.
 
MMKII said:
I thought that the 30 levels in Frozen Skein were for the combat frozen skein?

So the skill "Bloodline Mastery: Frozen Skein" in the "Non-elemental jutsu" section was always there? I just haven't picked up on it being there the last however many months?
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Oh, hmm, I didn't notice the Frozen Skein 30 when I saw Bloodline Mastery. I haven't looked too much at Keiko's sheet, so I wouldn't know if it's new or not, but it sounds like it could be. Keiko did get a month of XP to spend, after all.
 
Evenstar said:
HOLY SHIT KEIKO'S HAD A BREAKTHROUGH

h o l y s h i t

Listen, people.

Tools do not have emotions. Tools do not have opinions. Ever since we first met her, Keiko has been thinking of herself as a broken tool - never good enough for the purposes people want to put her to.

A lot of this is from the Frozen Skein's drawback - the "inability" to plan or be creative. But Keiko's been noticeably improving on that front recently - note her plan with the camoflague cloak.

I've been wondering what "bloodline mastery" means on Keiko's character sheet. I suspect this is part of it - the ability to circumvent the Frozen Skein's fatalism and acquire agency despite it. And that means that now, she can finally stop.

She can stop thinking of herself as a tool that has to passively accept the uses she's put to. That was and has always been a deeply flawed coping mechanism woven around the underlying mental problem - and now that she can deal with the underlying problem, it's been broken.

There's going to be some ugliness in the aftermath - things like this are never pretty - but Keiko just did something that a year ago she would have thought of as literally impossible.

The next part - needs someone who'll understand that. If Kagome was available I'd be calling him in on this. As it stands... Ami or Jaraiya, ideally Jaraiya.

I predict that:
- Keiko will be intensely lost after this. She's just broken one of her fundamental beliefs about her own identity, and in the process she's learned some ugly things: the fact that she's been using the Frozen Skein as an excuse/coping mechanism is going to be a lot clearer to her, now that she knows that she can make major decisions on her own.
- Once she deals with that fear, and finds a new coping mechanism, she's going to try and make a hard break from her past habits, essentially "exiling" the part of her she doesn't like. Probably this will involve refusal to use the Frozen Skein.
- This will go badly wrong and hurt her, because she still has the Frozen Skein, and it's not going to go away that easily. She can't just reject it entirely - nor can she reject the part of her that exists to protect her from it.
- Once she has that realization, she ought to be able to accept the Frozen Skein as part of herself, integrating it more fully. This will improve her ability to manage it, her self-confidence, and her overall emotional awareness and health. It'll be a hard process, but this will be a good thing in the end.

Our job is to make sure she gets that far without dying.
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I'm not convinced she made it to the realisation of not being a tool. Her 'brain the size of a planet' seems to stop working when she herself is an analyzed object. Sure she did a few things on her own, but even if you're correct on it being 'the mastery' it doesn't mean she made the conclusion of not being the tool. She'll probably notice when someone points it out.

By the way, have we congratulated Keiko with winning over us in Tournament?
 
PurposefulZephyr said:
Searching for a more accurate answer...


Yeah, HDK.
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Actually I think question 5 was sort of explained already. There isn't purely non-combat ninja per se, just that there are a ton of genin that couldn't cut it as field operatives and ended up being part of the bureaucratic backbone of the villages, that and retirees unable to go on missions for whatever reason. They aren't necessarily meant to be pure non-combat, but when you're pulled off the field in your early teens and spend the next few decades as a support unit than of course that's what you'll be putting all your accumulated xp in, rather than combat skills and jutsu. I could be remembering wrong though.
 
Ami knew it would happen this way. She'd always known that when the time came, Keiko would either break or ascend. It was how they were made. So when news had come of Keiko's survival, that she hadn't broken, Ami alone had known what it meant.
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Ami may have been over optimistic and the 'break or ascent' thing haven't happened yet. If @Evenstar is right, that's what we observe.
 
Cariyaga said:
Consider also: Keiko was closest to Ami out of her immediate family. Consider the issues Keiko has that can be traced back to her family.
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Something I've been positively itching for over a year now to grill Ami about. Surely, such a smart and talented older sister could have done something to combat her younger sibling's very serious problems...

Pahan said:
Now I'm imagining Hazou and Shikamaru in a pub...

Hazou: And then, she calls me out for not even trying to convince her... But I try to explain, and she just goes to the other extreme, blaming herself for being so compromised that I was justified in working around her. I guess I'm so used to Keiko preferring not to have to make difficult decisions most of the time, that I've been taking it for granted here as well.

Shikamaru: A plausible reflection, though only time will tell if it is accurate. On my part, I wish I had been aware of the incident in question, which I suspect may have primed Keiko to view decisions made on her behalf as usurpations of her agency, even when they were intended to minimise her emotional distress. I would have adjusted my plans accordingly.

Hazou: Twenty-twenty hindsight, eh? I'll drink to that. [raises glass]

Shikamaru: To twenty-twenty hindsight! [raises glass]

Barmaid: To twenty-twenty hindsight! [raises glass]

Hazou: Ami?
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VOICES IN HAZOU'S HEAD: run
 
Kalkin said:
So who are the eight people?
  1. Hazō
  2. Noburi
  3. Mari
  4. Kagome
  5. Jiraiya?
  6. Tenten?
  7. Shikamaru?
  8. Ami?
Also wow, I didn't realize she was blaming herself for Hazo's choice to not tell her on my first read.
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I don't think it's Jiraiya, tbh. Not to the same degree as the others. Pandaa?

Hm. Starting with good news: I am pleased Keiko has eight other people she trusted, even if she might have lost three. That is a 400% growth rate from just Ami and Mari.

Even if she has lost Hazou, Ami and Shika, the trend indicates that she will make as much as twenty friends in the next two years. :V

Keiko's intelligence is enough that she perceives her weakness, but she is not mature enough to understand, accept and live through it. It is unreasonable for her to threaten Hazou with violence, a fact she tangentially acknowledges. She is insistent on her social maladroitness and thought herself justified to respond with violence or threats of violence, which by nature of our culture is extremely disproportionate whilst in Elemental Nations is just one of the things they do, in their difference. This has compounded her self-loathing and, I suspect, is one of the many scars left on the kids following their stint as missing-nin.

Keiko was unloved by her family and grew up with an intertwined sense of inferiority and hero worship of Ami. If we had not had that chapter, containing HDK information, we would not have known Ami meant her well at all.

Keiko is fortunate. She met Mari, Hazou and Noburi, Kagome, Konoha, Tenten, Shikamaru. She made many friends, loved and was loved, become powerful. She has thus far refused to update her self-image as an irrelevant child, but that was not true in the past and is not true now.

The scroll was Keiko, not because it represented her, but because it reflects what she told herself constantly, even while desperately wishing that to be false and as well dependent on it as an excuse.


What I think Keiko needed most is spend time with Tenten and spend time with Mari. The first is because she shared a sense of mutual love and respect, the second because she represents an idol whose masks have cracked, showing herself to be mere mortal. I think this will reinforce her moments of affection and strength, leading to a result that she became a happier and more resilient person. I hope this is where Keiko's character arcs take her next, with or without Hazou's influence.

As a final point, I can only hope @Evenstar is correct. You don't become whole with another person, you need to stand for yourself.

On Hazou's side, apologize, acknowledge, make good where able. Hopefully, Ino wins and concedes to Keiko, which should free up Keiko's obligation to be in Mist. I'd go so far as to recommend she retires from the tournament and double times to Konoha ASAP, but I suspect Jiraiya and Keiko will so strongly pushes back against the idea it's unworkable.


If the players stayed in Mist after the end of the tournament, how will it work? Jiraiya would need to go back to be Hokage. Anbu and Jounin shouldn't be left on babysitting. Hazou and his family alone in Mist is hilariously unsafe.
 
Inferno Vulpix said:
When Jiraiya returns, get his opinion of the letter/situation:
  • We need to send a letter soon, to at least cancel Ami's favour.
  • Should we accept the second meeting?
    • We could try to figure out if Ami really does want a political marriage with the Goketsu.
    • A walk across the bay would be pretty OPSEC-secure, and then a picnic on the shore.
    • We're still a bit shaken from recent events, any advice?
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I was under the impression that walking across the bay was so secure the first time because Noburi could sense anyone on/in it. Should we have Noburi playing in the water by the shore or something, with some kind of signal set up for if we're being watched?
 
as an aside, can we have Keiko and Ino have a tea party in lieu of a fight? Two of the brightest boys in her peers are insufferably idiotic :V
 
Could we ask Keiko about the possibility of us bringing her up in conversation with Ami? Maybe that would make Keiko feel like we're at least trying to learn from our mistakes?
 
Sentient Tree said:
I was under the impression that walking across the bay was so secure the first time because Noburi could sense anyone on/in it. Should we have Noburi playing in the water by the shore or something, with some kind of signal set up for if we're being watched?
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It's still a pretty good spot despite the lack of Noburi:
  • Passive spying setups like Kozu body parts are unsustainable.
  • Clear sight lines for a long long distance, letting us spot anyone tailing us if we look.
  • We can go out of range of Byakugan users.
The anti-person detection that Noburi provides would still improve things, but it's already mostly secure with basically no set-up costs, which is good enough for a conversation that isn't even that sensitive.
 
Pahan said:
Now I'm imagining Hazou and Shikamaru in a pub...

Hazou: And then, she calls me out for not even trying to convince her... But I try to explain, and she just goes to the other extreme, blaming herself for being so compromised that I was justified in working around her. I guess I'm so used to Keiko preferring not to have to make difficult decisions most of the time, that I've been taking it for granted here as well.

Shikamaru: A plausible reflection, though only time will tell if it is accurate. On my part, I wish I had been aware of the incident in question, which I suspect may have primed Keiko to view decisions made on her behalf as usurpations of her agency, even when they were intended to minimise her emotional distress. I would have adjusted my plans accordingly.

Hazou: Twenty-twenty hindsight, eh? I'll drink to that. [raises glass]

Shikamaru: To twenty-twenty hindsight! [raises glass]

Barmaid: To twenty-twenty hindsight! [raises glass]

Hazou: Ami?
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Ami: Yeah. I realized that sending that letter was a bad idea, after seeing my sister in such a sorry state.

Hazou: That's...

Ami: Which means we have to get married now!

Hazou: Okay, I'll run it by Ji-

Ami: You don't get it- NOW!

Hazou: Wha-

Ami: Don't worry, we've got an altar and a monk ready, and now we just got to visit that tailor...

Hazou: What?! Shikamaru! Don't just look at me with those pitying eyes! HELP!

Shikamaru: *shaking his head* Too troublesome. I'll give you 30 hours later. You'll need them.
 
PurposefulZephyr said:
Ami: Yeah. I realized that sending that letter was a bad idea, after seeing my sister in such a sorry state.

Hazou: That's...

Ami: Which means we have to get married now!

Hazou: Okay, I'll run it by Ji-

Ami: You don't get it- NOW!

Hazou: Wha-

Ami: Don't worry, we've got an altar and a monk ready, and now we just got to visit that tailor...

Hazou: What?! Shikamaru! Don't just look at me with those pitying eyes! HELP!

Shikamaru: *shaking his head* Too troublesome. I'll give you 30 hours later. You'll need them.
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[><] Walk east
-[><] Over the clouds
--[><] Yes, using skywalkers
---[><] Don't stop until we're over Bear
 
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