Hmm, did we ever settle that discussion about what sort of plan -> post correspondence we wanted?

The two major options were:
  • What we do now. A plan gets voted in and, barring major changes in circumstance, can be executed over multiple updates without voting periods in between.
  • We treat plans as "Hazou's current plan of action" and the post runs with that, stopping whenever the QM wants. At which point we vote again, even if some/much of the plan went unused.
I'm strongly in favor of the second method, especially since we can always just re-vote for the unused portions of the previous plan. But I think the thread has had no clear consensus.
 
Hmm, did we ever settle that discussion about what sort of plan -> post correspondence we wanted?

The two major options were:
  • What we do now. A plan gets voted in and, barring major changes in circumstance, can be executed over multiple updates without voting periods in between.
  • We treat plans as "Hazou's current plan of action" and the post runs with that, stopping whenever the QM wants. At which point we vote again, even if some/much of the plan went unused.
I'm strongly in favor of the second method, especially since we can always just re-vote for the unused portions of the previous plan. But I think the thread has had no clear consensus.
I'm also pretty strongly in favor of the second method, and for the same reason.
 
I also prefer the second. It allows us to adapt to changing circumstances and new information, which is much better than being locked into a previously chosen course of action.
 
Yeah, I was thinking Sound/Rice.
You don't know if HS exists. Inoue knows that the borders are surprisingly tight and that there are rumors Orochimaru has been seen in the area. Then again, there's rumors about him popping up in almost every part of the EN including the Mizukage's bathroom.
tl;dr We don't know Hidden Sound exists but given the presence of an actual ninja force we may as well assume a ninja village exists (or a similar centralized force of ninjas), and call it Hidden Sound for the sake of convenience.
 
Should we assume that Orochimaru didn't attack during the Chuunin Exams (at least in a big way, and causing the Hokage's death), given that we didn't hear anything about it? All we heard is that Naruto and Gaara were badass, and that Sasuke's Sharingan activated.

(Sorry if I'm totally out of the loop)
 
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Hmm, did we ever settle that discussion about what sort of plan -> post correspondence we wanted?

The two major options were:
  • What we do now. A plan gets voted in and, barring major changes in circumstance, can be executed over multiple updates without voting periods in between.
  • We treat plans as "Hazou's current plan of action" and the post runs with that, stopping whenever the QM wants. At which point we vote again, even if some/much of the plan went unused.
I'm strongly in favor of the second method, especially since we can always just re-vote for the unused portions of the previous plan. But I think the thread has had no clear consensus.

As with most things, this is the way it is for historical reasons. At one point I wrote an update which ended up only covering about 36 hours in-game. I said "okay folks, there wasn't time for training. You're welcome to re-vote if you like." The blowback I got was so voluminous and so intense that both @Velorien and I have flinched from allowing re-voting since then.
 
Should we assume that Orochimaru didn't attack during the Chuunin Exams (at least in a big way, and causing the Hokage's death), given that we didn't hear anything about it? All we heard is that Naruto and Gaara were badass, and that Sasuke's Sharingan activated.

(Sorry if I'm totally out of the loop)
If they did, we'd know about it. The rumors we heard about included what happened with the Liberator's fortress, no way an invasion wouldn't have been included.
 
Should we assume that Orochimaru didn't attack during the Chuunin Exams (at least in a big way, and causing the Hokage's death), given that we didn't hear anything about it? All we heard is that Naruto and Gaara were badass, and that Sasuke's Sharingan activated.

(Sorry if I'm totally out of the loop)

No worries, it's a good question. And yeah, it's a safe bet that there wasn't a major attack during the exams -- if there had been it definitely would have overshadowed an arena fight, no matter how impressive the people involved.

Also: based on your message count I started to say "welcome to the quest!" Then I thought I shouldn't assume, so I searched for your prior content and found that you were here right at the beginning! Instead I shall say "welcome back." Have you been reading all this time or did you pick it up again recently?
 
As with most things, this is the way it is for historical reasons. At one point I wrote an update which ended up only covering about 36 hours in-game. I said "okay folks, there wasn't time for training. You're welcome to re-vote if you like." The blowback I got was so voluminous and so intense that both @Velorien and I have flinched from allowing re-voting since then.

Ahh. If I recall that was an issue with training votes in particular? And more recently an issue of agency, not one of partial evaluation.

Either way, anyone who cares, especially those who want option 1 should speak up. If the response is still unanimous in a week, @eaglejarl and @Velorien should probably add a note to an update and switch over. If someone objects, then we can have an actual discussion.

Sound good?
 
based on your message count I started to say "welcome to the quest!" Then I thought I shouldn't assume, so I searched for your prior content and found that you were here right at the beginning! Instead I shall say "welcome back." Have you been reading all this time or did you pick it up again recently?

Hey, thanks for the welcome :)

I haven't been up-to-date with the quest since the beginning. Been reading a chapter here and there since it started, but I lost interest somewhere in The Liberator arc. Recently I came down with a cold, and while taking time off work I decided to go on an MfD reading binge. Best decision ever. Now I'm all caught up, and excited to be part of the discussion :D
 
Hey, thanks for the welcome :)

I haven't been up-to-date with the quest since the beginning. Been reading a chapter here and there since it started, but I lost interest somewhere in The Liberator arc. Recently I came down with a cold, and while taking time off work I decided to go on an MfD reading binge. Best decision ever. Now I'm all caught up, and excited to be part of the discussion :D

Glad to have you, now we can start the traditional chant: "Lists for List GODS1​! Minds for the Mind Hive! Lists for ..."

[1]: Game Operation and Description Specialists​
 
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I had a couple of seal/seal machine ideas whose feasibility I'm curious about.
Seal Ideas:
1. Curved barriers
1.1. Spherical barriers that emanate from a point
1.2. Dome barriers, either emanating from a point or defined similar to normal barriers
2. Paired seals that, when activated, attempt to move to a particular distance/orientation relative to each other.
ex: Put the seals on two wooden cubes, then activate them. Seals will try to move the cubes so that they are 1 yard apart with the faces the seals are on facing each other
2.1. Paired seals that can release a chakra pulse (or some other signal that could trigger another seal) when in position.
2.1.1. Tripwire seals that trigger when they are a certain distance from each other.
2.2. Seals that attract/repel each other.

Seal Machines
1. Fuel Air Burst Seal Machine (cost effective? would it just make more sense to create a bigger explosive seal?)
1.1. Most basic would be a storage seal filled with oil/sawdust/flour and an explosive seal, linked via a tripwire. Storage scroll is set to violently eject contents, aerosolizing them. Explosive seal triggers them for increased boom.
1.2. If storage seals can't do the aerosolized release, add in an implosion seal, and set the storage seal to release when it detects a sudden drop in pressure.
2. Cage Of Death Seal Machine: this one is dependent on curved barriers or orientating seals. Not sure if they would offer any improvement over existing shaped charges.
2.1. Simplest is a spherical barrier + explosive seal. Assuming the spherical barrier snaps into existence at a set radius rather than expanding (so it traps things inside). Maximizes effect of explosive in a set area.
2.2. Assuming orientating seals work:
2.2.1. Eight cubes set up so that when triggered, they will try to become the vertices of a larger cube. One cube is set up so that it will move to the center of the cube.
2.2.2. Vertex cubes are set up so that when they are in place, they will enclose inside of cube in force barriers.
2.2.3. Center cube is covered in explosive seals that go off when it is in position.
 
"Well, yeah," Kagome said after a thoughtful gulp. "Seal effect depends on chakra being in the right pattern, and the stability of an infusion depends on each intermediate pattern being stable. He pulls chakra away, does it in a different order than the infusion, now there's a different pattern. Way more bad patterns than good ones, chances say boom, squish, no more Nobby."

So I have a quick objection to this scene. As is, it really seems like the sort of thing covered by the time we got Sealing 1. Just a ludicrously basic piece of mechanics knowledge.

Barring that, this suggests a number of interesting possibilities. If Nobby has a (sufficiently long) path of water to drain a seal, he can start triggering fail-cthulus at will. This gets even more useful once he becomes able to drain through mist.

Speaking of which @eaglejarl @Velorien: What's Nobby's estimate for the VD skill needed to drain chakra through mist? (In the same way that Hazou was able to give us an estimate of Kagome's current sealing level. Basically what're his 95% confidence interval and the expected value? We'll understand if the range is pretty large)

There's also the option of a chakra connecting seal that can be used to disable another seal. One that, after a timer, sets up a stable chakra pattern that extends a few mm away from itself. When the normally stable chakra structure connects with the chakra structure of another seal, they "combine" likely creating a new seal that's broken and causing a fail-cthulu.

Honestly, something like this should probably be part of the standard anti-sealmaster toolkit. It's dangerous, since you'll get a random failure mode, the severity of which scales with the amount of chakra in the target seal and it requires physical contact to set up. But despite that, it'll often be better than letting the seal do what the enemy sealmaster designed it to do.

1. Curved barriers
1.1. Spherical barriers that emanate from a point
1.2. Dome barriers, either emanating from a point or defined similar to normal barriers
2. Paired seals that, when activated, attempt to move to a particular distance/orientation relative to each other.
ex: Put the seals on two wooden cubes, then activate them. Seals will try to move the cubes so that they are 1 yard apart with the faces the seals are on facing each other
2.1. Paired seals that can release a chakra pulse (or some other signal that could trigger another seal) when in position.
2.1.1. Tripwire seals that trigger when they are a certain distance from each other.
2.2. Seals that attract/repel each other.

I like this, I should make up a set of experiments for playing with force wall derived seals. That way we can figure out how they work. Also new safety procedures for dealing with this.

One idea, if we can make barriers with volume is to create lenses. Air and vacuum have very slightly different refractive indices and enough thin lenses should add up to be more powerful than a single lens of equivalent thickness1​. This is particularly true for fresnel lenses.

[1]: If my mental calculations are right, but it's 6 am and I'm not really awake. Someone mind checking for me?​

1. Fuel Air Burst Seal Machine (cost effective? would it just make more sense to create a bigger explosive seal?)
1.1. Most basic would be a storage seal filled with oil/sawdust/flour and an explosive seal, linked via a tripwire. Storage scroll is set to violently eject contents, aerosolizing them. Explosive seal triggers them for increased boom.
1.2. If storage seals can't do the aerosolized release, add in an implosion seal, and set the storage seal to release when it detects a sudden drop in pressure.

We've got this already. We call it the Macerator seal, and we will eventually use it to make smoothies. Delicious, perfectly blended (down to the molecular level) smoothies.

See my sig or the wiki for details.

2. Cage Of Death Seal Machine: this one is dependent on curved barriers or orientating seals. Not sure if they would offer any improvement over existing shaped charges.
2.1. Simplest is a spherical barrier + explosive seal. Assuming the spherical barrier snaps into existence at a set radius rather than expanding (so it traps things inside). Maximizes effect of explosive in a set area.

Also good ideas, keep in mind that implosion seals, fuel air explosions, and many other conventual explosives get much of their power from the pressure shockwave. One which won't exist to the same extent if a wall keeps external air from rushing in.

One of these with an implosion seal or fuel air seal are likely to suffocate any occupants more than explode them, with some additional burning for the latter. An energy release explosive will also be weaker, but isn't likely to work fundamentally differently.

The best sort of explosive to use here is something with shrapnel that will bounce around the cage for a while pulping what's in it.

Also a version of this with small gaps would be useful for creating air seals. Triggering an implosion seal would fill it with air, but a small gap means only a slow trickle of air will enter the cage. This means the pressure wave that usually destroys the seal won't happen, and you have a storage seal filled with air. I'm sure we can find tons of uses for this.

2.2. Assuming orientating seals work:
2.2.1. Eight cubes set up so that when triggered, they will try to become the vertices of a larger cube. One cube is set up so that it will move to the center of the cube.
2.2.2. Vertex cubes are set up so that when they are in place, they will enclose inside of cube in force barriers.
2.2.3. Center cube is covered in explosive seals that go off when it is in position.

I have genuinely no clue what you're trying to do with this.
 
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So I have a quick objection to this scene. As is, it really seems like the sort of thing covered by the time we got Sealing 1. Just a ludicrously basic piece of mechanics knowledge.
To pull the curtain back a bit, when I wrote this scene I was modeling Hazou's model of 'draining a seal' as removing all the chakra in a seal at once, which he figured might cause something bad but wasn't sure what the mechanism would be, but when I ran the question through my Kagome-model it became clear that there would have to be a time-course to the process.
(E: I may have misunderstood your objection - is the issue the fact that Kagome bothered explaining the process of something as basic as infusing as part of his answer?)

@eaglejarl @Velorien would this setup allow 5SB to function?
 
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To pull the curtain back a bit, when I wrote this scene I was modeling Hazou's model of 'draining a seal' as removing all the chakra in a seal at once, which he figured might cause something bad but wasn't sure what the mechanism would be, but when I ran the question through my Kagome-model it became clear that there would have to be a time-course to the process.

@eaglejarl @Velorien would this setup allow 5SB to function?
Ooh, more fanart! :D
 
There's also the option of a chakra connecting seal that can be used to disable another seal. One that, after a timer, sets up a stable chakra pattern that extends a few mm away from itself. When the normally stable chakra structure connects with the chakra structure of another seal, they "combine" likely creating a new seal that's broken and causing a fail-cthulu.
This is a standard feature of sealing, actually. Seals that are in contact with one another (the seal, not the paper) will be considered one seal by the power of chakra, and will almost certainly go sideways as a result.

Speaking of which @eaglejarl @Velorien: What's Nobby's estimate for when he can drain through most

He isn't sure, but he's starting to see how it might work. He thinks with some focused practice he could figure it out pretty soon.
 
We have ~22 hours to vote in a plan.

Does anyone have any ideas what we should even put in it?
Voting was extended to Sunday, but, um... we should probably address the elephant in the room that is our knowledge of scorch squads in whatever fashion the hivemind finds appropriate and make plans for how we deal with the sealmistress.

First off, we can't just blow her the fuck up because we need her head in tact, so that lessens our chances there. Although if we did blow her up Jiraiya would be more likely to forgive us than if we just didn't kill her at all, so there's that.

...wait. Jiraiya wants her head. It strikes me that... high level yamanaka interrogators may very well be able to pull information from a dead body. That's... huh. Something worth considering, I guess?

Anyway, given that, I think it's worth considering the use of those dragonflies' in combination with macerator or PMYf to deliver it and disable her for Nobby's draining, though we'll need to test how long it lasts and if it prevents someone from channeling chakra as well.

@eaglejarl @Velorien Is asking Keiko to train in her use of the Frozen Skein something we CAN do or that would be necessary to? It strikes me that it's kind of just something that by existing at all she trains, so...
 
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