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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Velorien said:
"So…" Hazō said slowly, sensing the potential lead-in he was looking for, "what would you do with humanity?"

"I dunno."

Ami brought over a couple of plates with some mysterious sushi-like things on top of them while Hazō was still reeling.

"What do you mean?"

Ami took a bite of one of the things. Her entire body shuddered.

"This stuff is vile.
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Hah.
 
OliWhail said:
Aye but I assume neither of you is 14 :p

See this I would be far more okay with.
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It is best that we do not discuss this on SV if we intend to continue this discussion.
Cariyaga said:
I mean, it doesn't work IRL, why would it work in MfD? :p
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And actually, this is not true. As much as RL conservationism might be a bit of a shit show at times, there have been significant strides made.

When's the last time you heard about acid rain being an issue (somewhere other than China)? The ozone layer is repairing itself too.

Memes aside, cooperation beyond local maxima is not an insurmountable issue.
 
Evenstar said:
Consider how much of a problem having Kagome in the room is when we are trying to lie.

I expect Jaraiya's answer to be "hahaha no."
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I mean, I know it's a terrible idea in principle.
But...
eaglejarl said:
After some thought, I think it's fair for me to offer this:

One duty of a clan head is to train his heir. It's unstated at this point whether Hazō or Noburi is the heir (Keiko definitely is not interested), but it would be perfectly reasonable to think it was Hazō. He could therefore go to Jiraiya and ask to be brought into some high-level meetings with orders to sit silently against the wall and observe, or help with paperwork, or etc.

I'm not saying he would go for it at all, and depending on what you ask for he might tell you that you're not ready. Still, there are undoubtedly non-classified things that he does as Hokage that he would be willing to let you in on.
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If he sits there silently? Maybe after training his Resolve (or whatever would let him no react to snide comments from officials)?
And if it wasn't top-tier kind of meeting, and more a routine one?
 
Assuming Ami was being honest with us, I think I can understand the way she's looking at the world, maybe.

Her story, if I had to guess, is one of her seeking meaning, finding none, and having to create it for herself.

She commented early on about how everything was so inefficient. A thousand years of history, of war and death and horror, and we still haven't reached a conclusion. A girl as clever as Ami Mori, with a bloodline of logistics and efficiency, kept searching for the perspective that makes everything click. The goals that actually match what's happening, the ultimate truth of the world.

And she found nothing.

So, if it's now clear that no one's really truly pursuing a meaningful goal, what ideological banner does a girl like Ami rally behind? Can she truly and fully support Mist winning its wars if Mist doesn't fully support that? Instead, Ami eschewed external sources of inspiration and looked inwards. From first principles (or something like it), Ami arrived at what is (to her) the only reasonable goals and ideals. The kind of ideals you get when you take things to their logical conclusion and don't mind where you ended up.

And, with that, Ami pushed herself further while also separating a degree from the people around her. Can she honestly look up to Ryugamine like she used to, now that she's the master of her own ideology? Can she honestly act in service of the Mori's goals if she no longer subscribes to how Mori see the world? And all the same it makes her freer, she's the only one who understands herself so she's not beholden to the opinions of others save how they impact her goals. And as some connections wane new opportunities rise up in turn, such as a talented Genin with ambitions as great and fierce as her own.


Of course, Ami could have lied about many things in our date, and the assumptions I made beyond that may be wrong, but this feels like the kind of story that matches her, the general shape of it even if I turn out to be wildly wrong on the details. What do you guys think?
 
Roomba said:
Ok, so after putting Hazou through that, are we still afraid of talking to Hinata? That meeting is bound to be both less dangerous and more profitable.

Other things worth doing next update:

1. Report to Jiraiya. We should compile some proper conclusions in an effort to improve Hazou's analysis of adversarial social situations.
2. Commiserate with Noburi on being out of the tournament. Probe him about his family situation.
3. Lay out some preparations for how people are going to react to Hazou's speech. Knowing him, he's going to be surprised by the ridicule and hate. We should preempt that as best as we can.

Any other ideas?
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3a. Should probably also look into how the speech was interpreted by leaf nin especially. We might have soured some foreign goodwill we built, but hey.
3b. The speech might shed some unintended implications about Hazo and our mental model in the minds of many. Gotta be prepared for that too.
3c. I'd like to assess if we damaged the reputations of local merchants or foreign genin by association with us after our uplift speech.

4. I was thinking we should definitely look into the idea of scripts. Worked for Keiko when getting the pangolin trade deals. Was able to punch well above her weight, and I so want to dissect any notes Hazo took on that prep.

All I can think of for now.
 
Inferno Vulpix said:
What do you guys think?
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This girl has more faces than Jiraiya has spikey white hairs on his head, and she can be any single one of them at any moment. She is deadly , competent, and utterly terrifying. She could have been fucking with us, or a split second from leaving Hazou's slowly cooling corpse on the ground.

I have no doubt that if we ever become a true thorn in her side, we will shortly find ourselves dead in a time and manner that is maximally convenient to her. (Unless we do something clever first, of course.)

So I ask you...

...when's our second date?
 
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Inferno Vulpix said:
Assuming Ami was being honest with us, I think I can understand the way she's looking at the world, maybe.

Her story, if I had to guess, is one of her seeking meaning, finding none, and having to create it for herself.

She commented early on about how everything was so inefficient. A thousand years of history, of war and death and horror, and we still haven't reached a conclusion. A girl as clever as Ami Mori, with a bloodline of logistics and efficiency, kept searching for the perspective that makes everything click. The goals that actually match what's happening, the ultimate truth of the world.

And she found nothing.

So, if it's now clear that no one's really truly pursuing a meaningful goal, what ideological banner does a girl like Ami rally behind? Can she truly and fully support Mist winning its wars if Mist doesn't fully support that? Instead, Ami eschewed external sources of inspiration and looked inwards. From first principles (or something like it), Ami arrived at what is (to her) the only reasonable goals and ideals. The kind of ideals you get when you take things to their logical conclusion and don't mind where you ended up.

And, with that, Ami pushed herself further while also separating a degree from the people around her. Can she honestly look up to Ryugamine like she used to, now that she's the master of her own ideology? Can she honestly act in service of the Mori's goals if she no longer subscribes to how Mori see the world? And all the same it makes her freer, she's the only one who understands herself so she's not beholden to the opinions of others save how they impact her goals. And as some connections wane new opportunities rise up in turn, such as a talented Genin with ambitions as great and fierce as her own.


Of course, Ami could have lied about many things in our date, and the assumptions I made beyond that may be wrong, but this feels like the kind of story that matches her, the general shape of it even if I turn out to be wildly wrong on the details. What do you guys think?
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I think she's given us just enough information for us to develop our opinion of her as a Rorsach test. She's scary. She's helpful. She's manipulative. She's honest. She's friendly. She's our enemy.

She's letting us convince ourselves that she's on our side, because we're an idealist and want to believe the best of people.

Don't do her job for her.
 
MMKII said:
How do we arrive at this conclusion?
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Because she's jerked us around and scared us in such a way that we will stop talking to other jounin, thus minimizing our usefulness as an information gathering tool for Jaraiya. Or because when she touched us, she did something to us that will cause us to drop dead in about a week, or some other crazy ninja thing. Or because she's sending us back to Jaraiya with a headful of misinformation we can't help but repeat, lest we give her blackmail material. Or she arranged to have a sensor observe it and now Jaraiya is going to face awkward questions about what his adopted son is doing.

Rorsach test. We have precious little actual evidence, only the impression thereof. What we believe right now says more about us than her.
 
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Soooooo there's a posibility we are going to meet her again? Soonish, even?

Can we send a messenger? Preferably a clone messenger?

A clone messenger sent by a random genin we paid for sending said clone?
And said genin not being aware of who paid for his services?
Evenstar said:
Because she's jerked us around and scared us in such a way that we will stop talking to other jounin, thus minimizing our usefulness as an information gathering tool for Jaraiya.
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It's probably already considered, but her advice of "don't mess with jonin" goes well with her "I am the social equivalent of a sadistic instructor" persona.
After all, she didn't leave us completely braindead. Another jonin may not be so merciful.

But again, rorsach test, don't trust her, etc. I get it.
 
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MMKII said:
How do we arrive at this conclusion?
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Velorien said:
"Playfulness is a tool," Ami went on mercilessly. "Fickleness is a tool. Humour is a tool. Does the Hokage's protection make you feel invincible? Do you think I didn't calculate every possible way to outmanoeuvre him after you die? Or maybe I am telling you all this, maybe I've been teaching you all along, because now I will take control, and when you go back to the Hokage, it will be as another of my tools."
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We are a possible useful toy for her, that's all.

It's like being part of Jiraiya's network, just with a less funny person.
 
Evenstar said:
Because she's jerked us around and scared us in such a way that we will stop talking to other jounin, thus minimizing our usefulness as an information gathering tool for Jaraiya.
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She did? I'm perfectly comfortable with meeting other Jonin. We should schedule tea with Hana and Auntie Ren next.

Evenstar said:
Or because when she touched us, she did something to us that will cause us to drop dead in about a week, or some other crazy ninja thing. Or because she's sending us back to Jaraiya with a headful of misinformation we can't help but repeat, lest we give her blackmail material. Or she arranged to have a sensor observe it and now Jaraiya is going to face awkward questions about what his adopted son is doing.

Rorsach test. What we believe right now says more about us than her.
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I'm more inclined to treat everything as potential disinfo since its the smart thing to do, but I think its obvious that she spent the majority of the meeting fucking around with us and trying to buy our soul in one way or another (granted, she didn't really try too hard).

I wouldn't say any of that really makes us enemies. We don't really know if we're working at cross purposes. For all we know "I'm going to take over the world!" is her actual goal, and she's doing some sort of double deception, lying-with-the-truth bullshit.

That said, I'm not particularly inclined to take her up on her little favor. We talked about floating the Till-n-fill idea towards Ren as punishment duty for crappy genin. This would advance our goals and make Ren look like a strict authoritarian ruler, so we can try that avenue before selling our soul to Lucifer.

ContextBot said:
We are a possible useful toy for her, that's all.

It's like being part of Jiraiya's network, just with a less funny person.
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Right, but that doesn't make us enemies.
 
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Fascinating update.

Velorien said:
But the part you need to remember, the part that makes this better than just booking the place out is—apart from being much more fun—that now Minori owes me a favour, Yukizome Senior owes me a favour, and Yukizome Junior owes me a favour.
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Gains-from-trade.jpg
Why was Ami necessary as a middleman here? Minori lacked info, Y Jr might have lacked the guts, and Y Sr the trust. Worth thinking about how to be a dealbroker like this in the future.

Velorien said:
"You're trying to stop people fighting by offering them power and resources. Bigger, stronger clans. More money pouring in from civilians. What's a society that's never known anything but war going to do with all that stuff?
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I love this point. The version of Uplift that says to increase peace dividends is trying to make the strategic situation more like modern Earth, but it's not at all obvious that's a stable endpoint.

I enjoyed Ami's expressed views of the world in general. I suspect she has an actual agenda she'd want to enact, but I love the concept of her trying to take over the world because "meh, seems useful."

Velorien said:
Muscle tension readings suspended due to risk of Iron Nerve contamination
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Wh-wh-what??
Either she's covering her ass re: not uncovering Kurosawa clan secrets, or the Mori Voice has issues with the Iron Nerve somehow??
Or she's fucking with us.

—
I'm disappointed with Hazou's reaction if the seduction attempt was really just body language. She was at least using absence-of-Jonin-aura, though, and possibly something more complex.
 
ContextBot said:
It's like being part of Jiraiya's network, just with a less funny person.
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Less fun? Have you read the update? She is one of the most fun character to date, pun intended.

That reminds me of something...
Velorien said:
"Genjutsu? Seduction? So that's what this was about all along! Get close to old Yū, sucker him into trusting you… and then I wake up one day and I'm a helpless toy in her hands!"

Hazō had a sudden brainwave. "You've never seen her close up, have you, Kagome-sensei? Before you come to any conclusions, let me show you a picture of what she looks like."

He slowly reached into his jacket and pulled out Inoue-sensei's Wanted poster.

Kagome stared at it (once it was brought over to him via clone). "Helpless toy… in her hands…" he muttered in a slightly distant voice.
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Langevin said:
Wh-wh-what??
Either she's covering her ass re: not uncovering Kurosawa clan secrets, or the Mori Voice has issues with the Iron Nerve somehow??
Or she's fucking with us.
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Or she recognized that Hazou was using the Iron Nerve (sudden shift in expression) and so discontinued her analysis so as to not taint its accuracy by mixing in readings from Iron Nerve-d movements. I think everyone knows we can use it when we feel like to do sudden shifts in body language. At least, Ami should be able to piece that together.
 
MMKII said:
Or she recognized that Hazou was using the Iron Nerve (sudden shift in expression) and so discontinued her analysis so as to not taint its accuracy by mixing in readings from Iron Nerve-d movements. I think everyone knows we can use it when we feel like to do sudden shifts in body language. At least, Ami should be able to piece that together.
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You know, it shocks me that we're not using Iron Nerve in important conversations like this as a default, like Ren obviously does. We shouldn't be giving away any microexpressions and reactions we don't want to to people who aren't family and friends. Maybe that's something to put in future plans?
 
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Velorien said:
"This stuff is vile. But now I feel all sophisticated! You try some."

Hazō obediently tried some. It tasted like having all his teeth pulled at once. It tasted like a parasite infesting his tongue. It tasted like death by leprosy.

His entire body shuddered.

"You said I was worth more to you alive than dead, right?" he asked just to be sure.
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This was a mistake and it is one we should never repeat.

Even if Ami doesn't want to get hit by an angry kage there are long lasting poisons, mind altering substances, binary chemical weapons and other deniable substances she could slip into our food. Since this place is experimental cuisine it is possible she could even blame the civilian. Her eating some isn't any proof of innocence since she could have antidotes or resistance. You also shouldn't trust the word of someone like Ami when they say that they don't want to kill you.
 
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