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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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MMKII said:
The addition of alcohol should be a negligible change in the standard density of the Misterator mist.

Sake is like 80% water anyway, even without diluting it (which we instructed Nobbs to do in the previous plan to this chapter)
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Not for visibility, in fact. For trying to get at resulting blood-alcohol concentrations.

E: for context, see
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0015736886724584
CDC - Immediately Dangerous to Life or Health Concentrations (IDLH): Ethyl alcohol - NIOSH Publications and Products
 
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I have misgiving about the whole planning process:

1) We lost most of Monday operating on a different assumption.
2) We did not have a plan up before Tuesday.
3) We decided to plan a whole bunch of activities for exploiting the event that in my view premature or sloppy. I did not contribute enough to point that out.
4) We made last minute sloppy edits that result in this.

So now I am hoping the QMs are being merciful.

(And yeah, I am pissed)
 
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@Cariyaga Fuck if I know, from my impression we used Handwavium in order to determine the right dosage. Give me a second.
MMKII said:
What do you mean laboratory equipment? Doing that is utterly trivial. Just add a sufficient amount of water to whatever we find. You can guesstimate the proofage of Sake to within 5 percent, so if it's 15% let's say then mix it 9:1 with water and there's 1.5% right there. If it's between 10-20% (Sake is not that strong so this is a very generous upper range) you dilute it to something between 1% and 2% and you'll be fine. Add water as Noburi feels necessary if there's safety concerns.

Also fyi : any chemistry laboratory equipment you might need to do this would be something you could jerry rig in a kitchen within like half an hour anyway. But you don't really need any.


If you want something sticky try maple syrup or sugar water(which we can also get from the kitchens).

I can't think of anything sufficiently bad smelling that wouldn't also be a major biohazard to put into an aerosol form.
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OliWhail said:
Not for visibility, in fact. For trying to get at resulting blood-alcohol concentrations.
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Cariyaga said:
So... whatever amount Noburi thinks is right then.
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This basically.

There are various variables we don't know, like the original Vol% of the alcohol we are using, the mass of various contestants, their alcohol resistance (built by drinking or genetic) and exposure time.

I think in this case it is more practical to rely on Noburi who can estimate or know most of these things from living in the same world as the characters - as those make up most of the Chunin candidates. Maybe rolling against his Med Knowledge would do the trick? He passes the roll, he gets the exact result** we set out to do. If he doesn't, people are more/less intoxicated than we wanted to be.


*IIRC Asians have a lower genetic tolerance for example but are we to assume everyone in the EN is Asian just because the culture is mostly based on Japan? Things like having blue eyes is also a sign of increased alcohol tolerance and those exist in the EN whereas they are virtually non-existent in the real Japan. So which genetic comp do you choose?

** Which is people being intoxicated but not in danger; and since there are both adults and teens in the group, for realism I would have Noburi have designed the Tipserator to target teens primarily. So adults would be less intoxicated.
 
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While figuring out the genetics of the EN is exactly the kind of thing I'd love to lose a week doing... :p

Okay, so on the order of a percent of the fog is ethanol. In that case, what's misterator fog density?
 
OliWhail said:
While figuring out the genetics of the EN is exactly the kind of thing I'd love to lose a week doing... :p

Okay, so on the order of a percent of the fog is ethanol. In that case, what's misterator fog density?
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Are you trying to figure this out for fun or is this going to be relevant to the story?
 
OliWhail said:
Okay, so on the order of a percent of the fog is ethanol. In that case, what's misterator fog density?
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Ironically, @Radvic's analysis doesn't state how dense misterator fog is, since the unstated question he was answering was "can misterators create LOS-blocking fog?", and we know that the answer is no. FMPOV whatever "fog" is created rapidly turns into some sort of wet area/haze, which is (IMO) not very dense at all. So...something less than the normal density of fog?
 
OliWhail said:
While figuring out the genetics of the EN is exactly the kind of thing I'd love to lose a week doing... :p

Okay, so on the order of a percent of the fog is ethanol. In that case, what's misterator fog density?
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If I may offer a suggestion, instead of doing this, it might be better for both you and the playerbase to treat it similarly to dosing Lizardbreath. Decide on a TN for Noburi's Medical Knowledge roll based on the circumstances, and extrapolate an outcome from the result of said roll using what we intended (sufficient dose to get a teenager somewhat drunk, erring on the side of caution) as a baseline.

I don't see much of a benefit to doing it the hard way, to be honest. If you actually calculate the effects, you risk making mistakes and getting into endless arguments with the playerbase about the plausibility of the results. Meanwhile "Noburi made a mistake and things didn't go exactly according to plan" is an explanation I think we'll all easily accept.
 
Roomba said:
If I may offer a suggestion, instead of doing this, it might be better for both you and the playerbase to treat it similarly to dosing Lizardbreath. Decide on a TN for Noburi's Medical Knowledge roll based on the circumstances, and extrapolate an outcome from the result of said roll using what we intended (sufficient dose to get a teenager somewhat drunk, erring on the side of caution) as a baseline.

I don't see much of a benefit to doing it the hard way, to be honest. If you actually calculate the effects, you risk making mistakes and getting into endless arguments with the playerbase about the plausibility of the results. Meanwhile "Noburi made a mistake and things didn't go exactly according to plan" is an explanation I think we'll all easily accept.
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Though do note that, according to MMKII at least, it is orders of magnitude easier to mix alcohol than it was to dose lizardbreath.
 
Cariyaga said:
Though do note that, according to MMKII at least, it is orders of magnitude easier to mix alcohol than it was to dose lizardbreath.
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For reference:
MMKII said:
No this is like pharmacology 101: things inhaled or injected need much lower concentrations since they bypass metabolization by the liver and or kidneys

He calculated what would've needed to be done to drug the academy instructor safely enough that he wouldn't die but worse enough that it would be apparent, taking into account the fact that we drugged his whiskey so there's already alcohol in his system.

That's more delicate and complicated by one or two orders of magnitude


Edit: Like just the fact he was confident he could do the above and *did* is evidence enough in my book that he knows more than enough to be able to figure this out safely since he would've had to have at least known the effects of each on the body and how one may affect or exacerbate the others breakdown or he wouldn't have even agreed to try it
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OliWhail said:
While figuring out the genetics of the EN is exactly the kind of thing I'd love to lose a week doing... :p

Okay, so on the order of a percent of the fog is ethanol. In that case, what's misterator fog density?
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How can I estimate the density of fog?
Density of Moist Humid Air

The foggy air becomes less dense (about 90% as dense as regular dry air would be)

How much of that is the mist, who knows.


A word of caution to this tale:

I dont think figuring this out from first principles is going to be useful. Theres too much spurious data and assumptions that can get in the way. I think it might be more reasonable to put the density of the tipserator fog at the origin to something that could have the effects of the pre-retcon fog and then calculate how disbursement of the fog over a zone would reduce the density, percentage wise.

Blood alcohol content - Wikipedia

Say its half as dense, for example and instead of everyone becoming rapidly blackout drunk(which using the above chart, lets put at like a 0.2-0.25 since they were sober enough to fight instead of just pissing all over the ground), then if they get half the exposure of that, they'd be sitting at a 0.1-0.125 which is a good "Pretty sloshed, you should stop now".


And like, I'm not even touching possible temporal issues from "Lol it wouldn't have worked in the first place"that could arise from calcs with some assumptions since that would have some extremely annoying consequences WRT the last week or so of the thread activities.

Edit: For example, when we asked about what was up with everyone becoming drunker than a fish in about half a minute, the dialogue went:

MadScientist said:
Well they're inhaling 15-20% alcohol directly into their bloodstream. So depending on how long they stay in the mist, anywhere from "not very" to "will not remember what happened here tomorrow".
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Velorien said:
This. Noburi assumed that people weren't stupid enough to just stand there when suddenly enveloped by suspicious mist out of nowhere, and calculated the dosage accordingly.
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.

Our running assumption was that this was not retroactively changed.
 
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OliWhail said:
Okay, so on the order of a percent of the fog is ethanol. In that case, what's misterator fog density?
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For water spread out over ~20 meter radius sphere? In that case you can calculate it by:

Mass of water (in kg) × molar density of water (in mols / kg) / [ volume of misterator (in m^3) x molar volume of air (in mols / m^3) ] = liquid ratio

Mass of water = 100 kg (from storage seal)
molar density of water = 0.01802 kg / mol = 55.5 mol / kg (source)
Volume of misterator ~ 4 / 3 x pi x r^3 ~ 4 / 3 x 3.14 x (20 m) ~ 33,500 m^3 ~ 30,000 m^3 (assuming misterators are ~20 meter radius)
molar volume of air = 1 mole / 22.4 L = 1 mole / 0.0224 m^3 = 44.64 mol / m^3

so liquid ratio = [100 kg x 55.5 mol / kg ] / [ 30,000 m^3 x 44.64 mol / m^3] = 0.004144


liquid ratio x 1,000,000 = parts per million

parts per million ~ 4,000 ppm

So we can expect tipersators to have about 4,000 parts per million.

Edit: if we're about a percent, that means the air is about 40 parts per million alcohol.

Typical VC is ~ 6 Liters / minute (source), which means we're at about

Volume of air x molar volume of air = 6 Liters x 1 mol / 22.4 Liters = 0.267 Liters / minute = 0.00446 mols / second

Converting to alcohol ratio puts us at

0.00446 mols / second x 0.004144 (mols air / mols liquid) x 0.01 (alcohol percent) = 1.85 x 10 ^-7 mols of alcohol

Humans tend to have ~ 5 liters of blood which converts to

5 Liters blood x 55.5 mol/L = 277.5 mols

So, each second a ninja spends in the tipserator, they effectively add

1.85 x 10^-7 mols of alcohol, which is ~ 1.85 x ^-7 mols of alcohol / 277.5 mols of blood = 6.67E-10 ration of alcohol ~ 6.67E-8% alcohol

So, I think a ninja's Blood Alcohol Conentration would increase by about 1 E -7 % per second they spend in the tipersator. So, to reach a legally drunk (0.08 % blood alcohol concentration) limit, a ninja would need to stay in the misterator for ~ 0.08 / 1E-7 = 80,000 seconds.

Obviously, if a ninja is looking at the miserator and a bunch of it shoots up their nose, this is an entirely different story.
 
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