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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Velorien said:
4) I have to do additional on-the-spot worldbuilding to figure out what a ninja would do with this plan based on the level of training available to them. Now, simulationism does demand that I do a certain amount of this, but when players complain that unlike Hazō, they do not possess insider knowledge of ninja SOP, it should be remembered that QMs don't either. I'm a translator with some background in theology and social science. I can fill in gaps relating to Hazō's knowledge of the setting, and I can adjudicate whether a tactic or technique will be effective, but I am not going to automatically be better at coming up with ninja tricks than the players just because I'm on this side of the screen.
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I... had not actually ever considered this. Or, well, I had, just not quite in this context. Thank you for giving me something to consider.
 
I wonder what would happen if a bunch of tipsy ninja suddenly lost their henge to a sealing failure on the other side of the world. :whistle:

(That said, I do still approve of this idea.)
 
Ethanol: It's Not What You Think it is, or is it? - Part 2


The lower limit for concentration as far as when alcohol vapors become flammable is >3% in the air.

Drinking alcohol is not 100% ethanol. So as long as we math it out so that the level of pure ethanol in the air is :

Min{ 2%, Safety Level Calculated by Noburi }

Then we are all good. I think 2% is a massive amount of wiggle room as far as getting people drunk via inhalation as well.


Edit: Min!!! Take the minimum above not the max >_<
 
I'd rather there not be any potential for fire tbh.

We keep forgetting that the other contestants have their own agency and they will definitely try something when they see so many huddled up targets, and the last thing we need is our half baked distraction reacting badly with whatever they are doing and actually killing people. Even if we don't get caught, this is not something Hazo or Akane would deal well with - let alone something that shows Chunin levels of judgment.
 
Can't we use the exploding water/meat clone as the distraction.

While everyone is going around saying holy shit this dude just exploded Akane can do her thing, or Noburi can talk to Akane.

Whichever seems like a better idea.
 
Tua said:
I'd rather there not be any potential for fire tbh.

We keep forgetting that the other contestants have their own agency and they will definitely try something when they see so many huddled up targets, and the last thing we need is our half baked distraction reacting badly with whatever they are doing and actually killing people. Even if we don't get caught, this is not something Hazo or Akane would deal well with - let alone something that shows Chunin levels of judgment.
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I don't think this is too problematic. Taking my post above we should be safe from any harmful interactions (we have large amount of slack using my calculations).

I would imagine that the proctors would intervene if there was actual lethal danger.

As far as competency goes, it's not like we specced for counter espionage , which is basically what this event is, it's not really infiltration given that we know in advance everyone will be looking to our everyone else.
 
Tua said:
We are pretty much guaranteed to get caught doing this since it rolls against Awareness IIRC. Is it intended that we go from "almost surely compromised" to "definitely compromised"?
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That's allright, I think. Honestly, the Second Level Game will all but out us as ninja in the same way infobrokers are outed as such. I'm counting on whoever is observing Hazou to spot him leaving the seals and spend time worrying about what they're for.

I'm willing to change the payoff from Bomb Threat to something less extreme and worthy of proctor intervention, as per @faflec's recommendation, however.

Tua said:
I proposed there being a sufficient time delay between us contacting Akane and her actual leaving to do her thing so the two actions don't look connected. Ideally, by the time the rooms start heating up we are already visibly chatting up other people.
@Roomba: Please add that part to the plan?
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I don't want to be excessively specific. The plan goes out of its way to note that Noburi and Keiko could be watched, and that they need to be exceedingly careful when contacting Akane. I feel like they'll come up with superior methods of achieving this in the moment than what we will, right now. The plan also points out that Akane should not rush, and prioritize evading detection, so that should be covered as well.

Noumero said:
@Roomba, perhaps you should add contingencies for the possibility that we can't find Keiko after we tunnel out (i. e., she was captured/otherwise led away)?
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I expect the update to end if that happens. Can't add contingencies for everything, and I'm trying to stop the plan from growing too much.

Enjou said:
@Roomba - how exactly are we concealing the tunnel entrance? How long will it take? The reason I just wanted to throw a tag in with a silence mine is because it's fast and removes evidence quickly. We do not want to dawdle here when a proctor may be inbound. If we can't do it fast, we should just leave and clean off the tar in a break room later by changing clothes and washing any other areas on our body once we can henged again.
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I don't think concealing it should take more than a few minutes. I guess I can put that option (tag + mine) as a recommendation.

MMKII said:
Ethanol: It's Not What You Think it is, or is it? - Part 2


The lower limit for concentration as far as when alcohol vapors become flammable is >3% in the air.

Drinking alcohol is not 100% ethanol. So as long as we math it out so that the level of pure ethanol in the air is :

Min{ 2%, Safety Level Calculated by Noburi }

Then we are all good. I think 2% is a massive amount of wiggle room as far as getting people drunk via inhalation as well.


Edit: Min!!! Take the minimum above not the max >_<
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You know, the moment the safety of the plan requires getting an impromptu alcohol solution below 2% concentration without lab equipment, it's probably time to abandon the idea.

On the other hand, what about a Misterator with some kind of unpleasant substance, something sticky or smelly perhaps?
 
Cariyaga said:
I still kind of feel like this plan has three different directions it can go and isn't really doing any of them as effectively as it could
  1. Make people sweat, ID them that way.
    • Supported by the plan as a whole, but detracted from by the fact that we'll be IDable too. Can be adjusted for in the next plan, though, I suppose? Shouldn't we at least get some ice prepared or whatever?
  2. Stay out of the way
    • Supported by creating a safe room. But I don't really think a safe room can be a thing if this plan will be effective at all -- if there's a number of zones, and EM affects a zone, I seriously doubt "out of the way room" would be a zone its own. Also, once the duration of EM ends, the heat will spread naturally, making that room plenty hot anyway.
    • Still really don't approve of the above.
  3. Just in case Hazou thinks henges will pop
    • Nothing is in the plan on this that I can tell.
    • I would suggest finding a break room overlooking the slightly-lower-temperature area outside noted in-plan, and using a curtain or cloth of Hazou's own to obscure his and his team's face as they overlook the popping henges, getting intel on them.
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I wanted to try and get everyone's feedback on this. It's a good point, and I wrote the plan to keep our options open and take the best path once it's clearer how everyone's reacting to EM. Still, if we can make advantageous preparations before the whole thing blows, we should.

I will note that, my understanding of a safe room as per 2, is basically getting some ice out of our storage scrolls and placing it in containers around the break room to cool it. It should help, and doesn't really out us as having known about the incoming heat in the first place.
 
Roomba said:
You know, the moment the safety of the plan requires getting an impromptu alcohol solution below 2% concentration without lab equipment, it's probably time to abandon the idea.
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What do you mean laboratory equipment? Doing that is utterly trivial. Just add a sufficient amount of water to whatever we find. You can guesstimate the proofage of Sake to within 5 percent, so if it's 15% let's say then mix it 9:1 with water and there's 1.5% right there. If it's between 10-20% (Sake is not that strong so this is a very generous upper range) you dilute it to something between 1% and 2% and you'll be fine. Add water as Noburi feels necessary if there's safety concerns.

Also fyi : any chemistry laboratory equipment you might need to do this would be something you could jerry rig in a kitchen within like half an hour anyway. But you don't really need any.


If you want something sticky try maple syrup or sugar water(which we can also get from the kitchens).

I can't think of anything sufficiently bad smelling that wouldn't also be a major biohazard to put into an aerosol form.
 
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screaming ironically in unironic terror that we haven't thought through a minor detail that will end with us dead, or worse, Akane upset at us

...Ahem. Anyway, back to talking about aerosolizing alcohol to make a bunch of ninja drunk.
 
Cariyaga said:
I'm not sure if EM will pop henges, still -- recent QM rulings are a little bit confusing -- but if it does, we don't WANT people to be able to find somewhere safe. That's why I wanted the contingency for if EM can pop henges.
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Cariyaga said:
I don't think that's the case at all, though. What causes the damage is destabilization of the chakra shell due to dissolution of sweat.

e: and REHYDRATINg shouldn't work or you get chakraclipping AAAAAAAA
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Cariyaga said:
Alright, here's a distinct thing you guys should be able to answwer. @eaglejarl @Velorien @OliWhail If you wish to make sweat-loss-popping analagous with cutting out a piece of clothes -popping, then how much cloth can be removed from a henge before it pops? That volume of sweat to do the same should be what's necessary to separate from the body (by any means) in order for the henge to pop.

e: Which, to be clear, would likely take far less long than it would to pass out from sweat loss.
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I recognize that this is not your intent, but my emotional reaction at this point is that we have moved beyond questioning and into willfully missing the point and nagging. Let me try to be as clear as possible so that we can finally put this issue to bed.

  1. Cutting a piece off a henged form will pop the henge. Pushing us on "Well, what if it's only one thread? Well, what if it's only one fiber from one thread?" will not have good outcomes. Please try to understand the basic intent and work with it, since that's what we're doing. We don't have a physics model of this anymore than you do;
  2. Sweat will dissolve almost as soon as it comes off your henged form;
  3. Sweating enough will eventually pop your henge;
  4. It will take at least tens of minutes to get to the point where your henge pops solely from sweating;
  5. Heatstroke is not the same as sweating. If you pass out for any reason, your henge pops; and,
  6. You may or may not be able to rehydrate while henged, that's still TBD. It doesn't matter for this update, because we will set whatever rules are necessary such that you cannot abuse them but we will not fuck your plan solely for the sake of fucking your plan, so please stop wasting time on thinking about it. If there ends up being a small inconsistency between what happens in this update and whatever the final rules are, screw it. We've had those before, and pretty much always relating to henge. I hate this fucking technique and the other QMs are voting against the "it gets eaten by a grue" concept.
Is that clear enough or do I need to try again?

{{{EDIT: I should probably have added some weasel-words in there like 'generally' or 'under normal circumstances'. I'm sure that there's something in the infinite reaches of probability space that would cause henge to pop in 5 minutes instead of tens of minutes, but I'm not thinking of it offhand.}}}


faflec said:
...fuck it @eaglejarl @Velorien @OliWhail One of the plots we've been considering is for Hazou to make a fake bomb plot; how much trouble would we/could we be in given our plan?
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It would fall under the collateral damage rules. Don't hurt anyone or damage anything and you're fine.
 
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eaglejarl said:
I hate this fucking technique and the other QMs are voting against the "it gets eaten by a grue" concept.
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Damn... are we sure they can't be tempted by sheer chaos and political turmoil it would cause?

Just imagine the sheer salt that would be generated if the players have to deal with a committee just to get sealing research ideas approved!
 
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Enjou said:
Damn... are we sure they can't be tempted by sheer chaos and political turmoil it would cause?
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Sadly, that is why they're objecting. Quitters.

Them: Oh, EJ, you're so brilliant and you make such convincing arguments for why we should get rid of fucking henge that is the primary source of our headaches, but it would probably cause WW4 and that would be bad!

Me: Why?

Them: We have no valid reason, we're just saying this to crush your youthful hopes and dreams and because it would be too much work to model.

Me: But...look, I'm okay with starting WW4 if it will get rid of fucking henge.

Them: No, we can't do that! It would destroy all our current plot threads!

Me: No it wouldn't! Screw the whole simulationism thing for once! I've been stockpiling all the Kishimotium that we screened from the setting, and we can expend all of it on this one thing happening and no one reacting in an unreasonable way!

Them: *whine, whine, complain*

Me: Okay, fine, we'll be simulationist about it. All of the Kage and important people are here in Mist, so they will be reasonably sure that none of them did it, since they haven't had enough alone time. They'll also be able to talk to each other and come to tentative agreement to hold off on the war because no one actually wants the war.

Them: *whine, whine, complain*

Me: Okay, well, the obvious group to blame would be Akatsuki. They're S-rank so they likely have method; they are off somewhere in their hidden base, unobserved and with lots of time on their hands, so they have opportunity; getting rid of henge hurts the villages far more than it hurts Akatsuki, since they generally don't need to disguise themselves (see prior comments about 'S-rank') so they have motive.

Them: *whine, whine, complain*

NamelessQM#1: I would feel badly about making this decision solely for our convenience. It would be better if the players and QMs all agreed that it was a good idea.

Me (thinking): Is there any possible way that the players would give up such an abusable technique?

NamelessQM#2: EJ, you had 3 hours of sleep last night and I had insufficient-although-more-than-that. Perhaps we should leave this for tomorrow?

Me: *grumble* Fine. *grumble* *grumble*

Enjou said:
Just imagine the sheer salt that would be generated if the players have to deal with a committee just to get sealing research ideas approved!
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Mmmmm, salty goodness.
 
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eaglejarl said:
I recognize that this is not your intent, but my emotional reaction at this point is that we have moved beyond questioning and into willfully missing the point and nagging. Let me try to be as clear as possible so that we can finally put this issue to bed.

  1. Cutting a piece off a henged form will pop the henge. Pushing us on "Well, what if it's only one thread? Well, what if it's only one fiber from one thread?" will not have good outcomes. Please try to understand the basic intent and work with it, since that's what we're doing. We don't have a physics model of this anymore than you do;
  2. Sweat will dissolve almost as soon as it comes off your henged form;
  3. Sweating enough will eventually pop your henge;
  4. It will take at least tens of minutes to get to the point where your henge pops solely from sweating;
  5. Heatstroke is not the same as sweating. If you pass out for any reason, your henge pops; and,
  6. You may or may not be able to rehydrate while henged, that's still TBD. It doesn't matter for this update, because we will set whatever rules are necessary such that you cannot abuse them but we will not fuck your plan solely for the sake of fucking your plan, so please stop wasting time on thinking about it. If there ends up being a small inconsistency between what happens in this update and whatever the final rules are, screw it. We've had those before, and pretty much always relating to henge. I hate this fucking technique and the other QMs are voting against the "it gets eaten by a grue" concept.
Is that clear enough or do I need to try again?


It would fall under the collateral damage rules. Don't hurt anyone or damage anything and you're fine.
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I'm sorry that I made you feel that way, inadvertently or not. You are correct that neither of those were my intent.

...and now I'm realizing how much of a hell-technique Henge is. Ugh.

Thank you for clarifying, though, that does help a lot. Ninja shit always makes me paranoid :p
 
eaglejarl said:
Sadly, that is why they're objecting. Quitters.

Them: Oh, EJ, you're so brilliant and you make such convincing arguments for why we should get rid of fucking henge that is the primary source of our headaches, but it would probably cause WW4 and that would be bad!

Me: Why?

Them: We have no valid reason, we're just saying this to crush your youthful hopes and dreams and because it would be too much work to model.

Me: But...look, I'm okay with starting WW4 if it will get rid of fucking henge.

Them: No, we can't do that! It would destroy all our current plot threads!

Me: No it wouldn't! Screw the whole simulationism thing for once! I've been stockpiling all the Kishimotium that we screened from the setting, and we can expend all of it on this one thing happening and no one reacting in an unreasonable way!

Them: *whine, whine, complain*

Me: Okay, fine, we'll be simulationist about it. All of the Kage and important people are here in Mist, so they will be reasonably sure that none of them did it, since they haven't had enough alone time. They'll also be able to talk to each other and come to tentative agreement to hold off on the war because no one actually wants the war.

Them: *whine, whine, complain*

Me: Okay, well, the obvious group to blame would be Akatsuki. They're S-rank so they likely have method; they are off somewhere in their hidden base, unobserved and with lots of time on their hands, so they have opportunity; getting rid of henge hurts the villages far more than it hurts Akatsuki, since they generally don't need to disguise themselves -- see prior comments about 'S-rank'.

Them: *whine, whine, complain*

NamelessQM#1: I would feel badly about making this decision solely for our convenience. It would be better if the players and QMs all agreed that it was a good idea.

Me (thinking): Is there any possible way that the players would give up such an abusable technique?

NamelessQM#2: EJ, you had 3 hours of sleep last night and I had insufficient-although-more-than-that. Perhaps we should leave this for tomorrow?

Me: *grumble* Fine. *grumble* *grumble*


Mmmmm, salty goodness.
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I mean, I would be willing to give up henge at least. Maybe not during this event. That would be a little too convenient and world-conspires-against-Hazou-y, but in general... a retrocausal sealing accident that replaced physical henge with illusion henge and didn't change anything else (because sealing) would be fine by me.
Kiba said:
Pretty sure henge is a fundamental universe of the naurtoverse. Getting rid it would make MfD less narutoverse.
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We could have illusion-henge instead of physical henge and it would be fine.
 
Cariyaga said:
I'm sorry that I made you feel that way, inadvertently or not. You are correct that neither of those were my intent.

...and now I'm realizing how much of a hell-technique Henge is. Ugh.

Thank you for clarifying, though, that does help a lot. Ninja shit always makes me paranoid :p
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Thanks. I should probably have added some weasel-words in there like 'generally' or 'under normal circumstances'. I'm sure that there's something in the infinite reaches of probability space that would cause henge to pop in 5 minutes instead of tens of minutes, but I'm not thinking of it offhand. I'll edit that in so that when people inevitably link to that post it will be there.
 
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