- Location
- Yes.
Of course he would. Doing so protects Hazou from being kidnapped and put into a seal sweatshop while bits of his friends are fed to him every week he doesn't make a new seal and ahhhhhhhhh
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
- Start date
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- Tags
- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
Translator's note: "and ahhhhhhhhh" means ".".
- Location
- Yes.
Um, no. It means "etc..".
- Location
- Potato land
Insofar as public credit for Skywalker invention goes, Jiraiya will decide who will get it based on what is most advantageous for the clan. That said, it appears that Jiraiya considers it to be primarily Hazou's baby, and that's what the classified "truth" is as far as Leaf is concerned. Hence Shikaku addressing Hazou as the inventor as well.
- Location
- The Void
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Another thing to consider is Ren doesn't have to convince the entire clan to scribe new seals. She can just work on one member at a time. This is definitely possible considering that she is one of the most talented diplomats of all time.
Every one she convince to join her conspiracy is a top level seal master. She might not be able to produce thousands of Jiraiya level seals per day but hundreds are definitely in play
Every one she convince to join her conspiracy is a top level seal master. She might not be able to produce thousands of Jiraiya level seals per day but hundreds are definitely in play
- Location
- Potato land
That's assuming she convinces the actual sealmasters first, of which the Kurosawa don't have many if I recall correctly. Otherwise, she can only produce a lot of blanks without anyone to infuse them. And she can't work with non-clan sealmasters because it would necessitate revealing the Iron Nerve secret.
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- Location
- The Void
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Ren got the hat by socially manipulating everyone. I don't have any doubts that she could easily convince someone she's know from birth to join her side. There is also always sealing sweatshops. If in country have them mist probably does. Can always use someone locked in there by Yagura and promise to let him out eventually.
- Location
- how about no
Mass production of seals would be far too conspicuous for Mist to pull off right now. 4 of the 5 major villages banded together to crush Whirlpool when that minor village decided to go all in on seals. Mist would remember that lesson: seals are like charging up a doomsday weapon: once it's fully operational you win the geopolitical game, but getting to that point leaves you vulnerable. If Mist were to devote a whole clan to solely specializing in producing seals that manpower has to be taken away from Mist's standing forces. This in turn would leave them even weaker to other nations in the short term which, after the loss of their Kage/jinchuuriki and numerous jonin, is their primary concern.
For Mist to devote their forces to such an endeavor also assumes that Mist has the materials for such an undertaking as well as seal templates that would be worth the effort. More explosions are always appreciated in a direct confrontation, but if Mist wants to engage in covert activities like another Noodle invasion (or appear to the other nations as wanting to engage in such activities for posturing reasons) moar daka isn't going to help them. Or perhaps the infrastructure simply isn't in place to begin mass manufacturing of seals and the resources it would take to set up such an industry are more desperately needed elsewhere for Mist's defense or are being spent currently on running the Chunin exams. With all of the foreign ninja in their village now would be the worse time to begin a nation-affecting policy since all of the other villages could make preparations against it as they do their obvious spying.
Large scale sealing seems to me to be feasible eventually for Mist, but right now I think they have more pressing concerns to attend to. It's a concern we need to keep Jiraiya aware of if he isn't already aware of it, but other than that I believe we also have more important, immediate things to worry about.
For Mist to devote their forces to such an endeavor also assumes that Mist has the materials for such an undertaking as well as seal templates that would be worth the effort. More explosions are always appreciated in a direct confrontation, but if Mist wants to engage in covert activities like another Noodle invasion (or appear to the other nations as wanting to engage in such activities for posturing reasons) moar daka isn't going to help them. Or perhaps the infrastructure simply isn't in place to begin mass manufacturing of seals and the resources it would take to set up such an industry are more desperately needed elsewhere for Mist's defense or are being spent currently on running the Chunin exams. With all of the foreign ninja in their village now would be the worse time to begin a nation-affecting policy since all of the other villages could make preparations against it as they do their obvious spying.
Large scale sealing seems to me to be feasible eventually for Mist, but right now I think they have more pressing concerns to attend to. It's a concern we need to keep Jiraiya aware of if he isn't already aware of it, but other than that I believe we also have more important, immediate things to worry about.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Being good enough at diplo and having the clans' backing to prevent Jiraiya from bullying her into it, then using the position of tacit alliance to prevent being conquered.
Ren is going to sign some deals that are unfavorable, but still as favorable as she can manage, and then slowly rebuild and train a new generation of powerful ninja. Or at least, that's probably her plan.
It's probably instructive to step back and think about what you mean when you say "conquered" and if it would even be desirable to try and conquer or destroy a major ninja village. There's a reason that despite three major wars, all five major villages are still intact.
Push a village so hard that it breaks, that it can no longer maintain a border and enforce order on its members, and what you get isn't a conquered village full of submissive ninjas. It's hundreds of Team Stone Cold Killers, fleeing in all directions. It's the era of warring clans come again. And a total "kill everyone" is not a viable strategy for one village acting alone; it took a multi-national alliance for Whirlpool and even then they didn't have the population of a Major Village. Mist may be weakened, but a war to the knife could cripple Leaf in before they die. Or so Ren thinks, not knowing about Skywalkers....
- Location
- Potato land
I also think this whole idea is based on a faulty premise. If producing a lot of high-level seals were such a large force multiplier, all hidden villages would do so, Kurosawa or no Kurosawa. Either it actually is, and cultural factors (NINJA MUST PUNCH!) prevent expanding sealing corps, or there are other factors in play. Point in case, we have access to the world's best sealmaster, and yet we're hardly "seal tech equipped supersoldiers".
I think Jiraiya would rather get a worse deal from Ren than reveal Skywalkers to the world in any capacity.
I think Jiraiya would rather get a worse deal from Ren than reveal Skywalkers to the world in any capacity.
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- Location
- The Deep Blue Sea
Ooph. Right in the STEM.
Why do Hidden Village with expanding sealing corps don't win everything, then?
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Whirlpool tried that. Once.
- Location
- Potato land
We don't know if there are any villages expanding their sealing corps, aside from the edge case of Whirlpool. Why aren't they? Maybe it's just not cost-effective. High level sealing research is fraught with peril and causes uncontainable failures. If it's expensive enough to train an expert sealmaster, and their output isn't sufficiently valuable, then the villages won't bother.
I will say that I expect this to change drastically once Skywalkers are revealed to the world as a sealing innovation.
- Location
- The Void
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Normally producing any high level seals take a huge amount of investment. To get a ninja to sealing rank 60 takes roughly 4000 exp. so 4 years of an above average ninjas life. On top of that sealing is incredibly dangerous. Let's say half of all new trainees die before they make anything that is useful. Then you have the actual cost associated with building labs and safety features
The Kurosawa clan can skip all of these hurdles thanks to the Iron Nerve. They only need one top level seal master. Each member of the Kurosawa Clan can crank out 100 seals every day. This cost nothing. They spend no extra experience. They aren't risking there life to seal failures. They don't require safety features or labs to do research. All they need is ink and paper. If Ren can convince 10 members of the clan to join her conspiracy every day she can equip every Mist ninja with the best seal ever designed by a Kurosawa seal master. She can repeat this day. Moving on from one seal to another. Each seal giving every Mist ninja more power and utility. Every day mist is growing stronger than every village. She has a cease fire in place. Which is all she needs to become powerful enough to fight of all the other villages
dhasenan
always lowercase
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I just binged on reader mode, so is that discussed explicitly in a rules clarification that's not threadmarked? It would be surprising to me, considering Hazō's sealing failures.
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
Assuming, of course, that she's the kind of person to do that in the first place. Mizukage or no, she's a Kurosawa and, if her favour among her clan is any indication, a wholehearted believer in the clan ideology. That she might not even want to set up that kind of enterprise, seeing it as an affront to the Kurosawa, would not come as a surprise to me. It's also possible, as you said, that she is doing it, but I wouldn't talk about it as if there's no way she's not doing it.
An Iron Nerve user can, upon seeing an infused seal, perfectly replicate it later, and if they've drawn a seal once they can also perfectly replicate it later. Typically a sealmaster will only infuse seals they personally drew because sealing failures can be fatal and sealmasters aren't going to trust that some random schmuck copied the seal exactly right (since even the slightest of mistakes can mean instant death), but a Kurosawa can provide 100% guarantee perfect seal blanks. This is a great benefit because sealmasters often can't or don't spend all day scribing top-tier seals (Jiraiya's constantly busy, for example) so a Kurosawa genin can spend hours a day scribing top-tier seal blanks at no time cost for the sealmaster (since infusing takes negligible time). We've seen this in action from Hazou a couple times, though the most clear memories of such events I have pertain to Hazou offering that ability to Jiraiya, who as a normal sealmaster was very creeped out at the idea of infusing seals he didn't draw as a matter of reflex.
However, the Iron Nerve only guarantees the seal blank, and it's still quite possible to fail the infusion roll, which is where Hazou's seal failures come from, so the Iron Nerve isn't a total OP seal-machine. That said, in a world where seal output is presumably limited by manpower, proper application of the Iron Nerve could, as Oneiros has been arguing, easily have world-changing effects.
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- Location
- Potato land
I have no problem believing that doing this would be beneficial, if she could clear all the hurdles. But beneficial enough to elevate weakened Mist above all the other villages? No way. I don't even think it would be enough to make them stronger than Leaf. Whirlpool went all-in on sealing, and on actual research, not just mass-producing what one or two sealmasters could do, and they were at best forced to flee from the joint invasion force. Sealing is simply not as good of a force multiplier as you assume.
And again, if it were, other villages would be doing this as well, huge costs or no. Kinda hard to beat "We can be stronger than the other villages put together if we make this huge investment" on the ROI scale.
dhasenan
always lowercase
- Pronouns
- She/Her
And the limiting factor for infusion is chakra, so one Kurosawa, one Wakahisa, and a handful of sealmasters in the Swamp of Death gets you a lot of seals very quickly.
Maybe you could use a printing press in lieu of a Kurosawa? Depends on whether the brush strokes matter or it's just the shapes.
- Location
- Yes.
It does. Otherwise the Nara clan would not have made it anything but an S class secret.
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
Infusion doesn't even take up relevant amounts of chakra either (we've heard that most seals operate by absorbing ambient chakra for its own use), so you just need the Kurosawa and the sealmasters. We could theoretically make a thousand of Jiraiya's best seals, pass them to him one morning, and he could infuse them all in short order and leave without losing much chakra at all.
And, heh, printing press seals is one of the things I've been pushing for us to look into when we get back to Leaf. We know that just pressing the same design into paper won't work, the brushstrokes are important, but there's nothing saying that we can't create a new sealing discipline specifically for this. It'd actually be a different niche than a Kurosawa, though. Iron Nerve lets you make top-tier seals really easily, but doesn't help much with low-tier seals because Iron Nerve doesn't help you go any faster. A printing press, on the other hand, can output seal blanks at a staggering rate, and even if the process of making a new discipline from scratch means we only get up to mass-producing explosive seals, then Leaf has all the explosives it could ever want and it can put all of its sealmasters on other, fancier seals.
We haven't heard of the Nara doing secret sealing research on printing press seals, but then again we kinda didn't ask. Once we get back we can ask Shikaku if he's considered it, if he's already doing it, and/or if he's hit a roadblock we haven't anticipated, and doing that is well worth our time on the chance that we get to be the spearhead of true seal mass-production.
zap lunch
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- Location
- Yes.
That...reminds me. @eaglejarl @Velorien @OliWhail Based on the scores on the last exams top teams are gonna be making 80,000 ryo worth of money; does Mist currency have individual ryo denominations large enough or are we literally going to be carrying 80,000 gold coins worth 1 ryo each?