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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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faflec said:
Oh wow, that's more dense than a supermassive black hole. I'm fairly certain everything dies.
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I believe that black hole would be very small and would evaporate almost instantly.

Probably what would actually happen is for an appreciable fraction of the mass to be converted to energy in the form of a rapidly expanding plasma field followingly only shortly behind a shock front of gamma radiation. Most of the energy would be lost to neutrinos, etc., but that doesn't really matter at this scale. Not earth destroying, but still on the level of antimatter bombs.
 
Vecht said:
Probably what would actually happen is for an appreciable fraction of the mass to be converted to energy in the form of a rapidly expanding plasma field followingly only shortly behind a shock front of gamma radiation. Most of the energy would be lost to neutrinos, etc., but that doesn't really matter at this scale. Not earth destroying, but still on the level of antimatter bombs.
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Would it expand, though, if it's locked in a 5SB box?

...

Would a 5SB box protect the outside world from the gamma radiation? Or do such things go through the box?

Hm.
 
faflec said:
Oh wow, that's more dense than a supermassive black hole. I'm fairly certain everything dies.

Let's not do this.
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Oh we are definitely doing this--we'll just scale down a few orders of magnitude.

Also, I'm not seeing how a mini-black-hole is less destructive than a nuke.

Vecht said:
I believe what would actually happen is for an appreciable fraction of the mass to be converted to energy in the form of a rapidly expanding plasma field followingly only shortly behind a shock front of gamma radiation. Most of the energy would be lost to neutrinos, etc., but that doesn't really matter at this scale.
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Oh.
 
OliWhail said:
General request for assistance:

If anyone can help figure out what actually happens when you compress three million cubic meters of air into the size of a small notebook, it would be hugely appreciated. Even if you, like me, cannot actually do that math, relevant sources would be helpful.

I have seen rough estimates in the thread for what it would do, but we'd like to be able to give a ruling more sophisticated than "it makes a big boom, iunno how big"
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This is one of the problems where "what model should we use" is a hard to answer question. Here are some resources for various models one could use to attempt to estimate what the damage would be:

For looking at what happens when this much air collapses into a single point, in nature, we look to star formation. Here is some Stellar Formation information and Stellar evolution information

For determining what happens when compressed air is released in general, compressed gas often makes up blast waves as described here

(awful awful pseudoscience ahead: this ignores lots of relevant laws (like literally anything about energy)) For determining if atoms should fuse, we can compare the average distance between air molecules and the size of their nuclei, as this source mentions is a 1:10^20 difference in solids, likely larger in air. This would imply we need to increase the density of air by at least 20 orders of magnitude to get something to fuse.

For determining how damaging this would be, we can look at the force from an airgun and just see how much force we'd get at a certain pressure, then extrapolate to energy by integrating the number of times you'd be able to do it.

For looking at how this would effect the temperature (assuming we get an explosion), we can look at adiabatic expansion and calculate what the final temperature would be after it returns to it's original size

OliWhail said:
You've lost me - why would it be limited to that amount of compression?
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I was under the impression that storage seals released things as they were put in. So, if a storage seal stored a bunch of air from a 20 meter radius sphere (e.g. our implosion seals) then it would release it in a 20 meter radius sphere. I suppose we could use the purifier seals, but those things will take ages and ages to build up.

Edit: or the tunnelers? Those might work best and might let us put all the air into a very small area.
 
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faflec said:
Would it expand, though, if it's locked in a 5SB box?
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Hah! You think that would stop it?

Heat conduction is not blocked by a 5SB'd box. Even if everything else was blocked, which sounds extremely unlikely, the heat would instantly destroy the container. Whether the container melts or the seal gets irradiated to a crisp first is a question of nanoseconds.

The only things we don't have to worry about are sealing horrors surviving the blast.
 
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FWIW, I think WMD research is a distraction, something that can be delayed until when we have nothing to talk about on Wednesday and Thursday.

We should at least try to get a plan or a resemblance of one by the end of the day, so we can discuss said plans on Tuesday, and finish voting by Wednesday.

I already finished the sealing research outline, but I would like to do better research into sounds.
 
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Radvic said:
I was under the impression that storage seals released things as they were put in.
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Aaaah, I gotcha. I had been modeling it as all coming out from a single point in my head, which admittedly makes less sense.

Radvic said:
I suppose we could use the purifier seals, but those things will take ages and ages to build up.
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Also Tunneler's Friend, which is admittedly annoying to work with since they don't have a specified volume.

Veedrac said:
Hah! You think that would stop it?
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I don't think you intended it this way, but this came across to me as needlessly stuck up.
 
For Keiko, we could do a fact finding mission over a number of days. Also could arrange trade.

I am thinking:

Botantical gardens - We need a long term arrangement to keep and grow plants Noburi found. Apothecaries are also another alternative. We could probably store the seed in storage seals and still be able to germinate?

Market research - Find out what Pangolins like, other than ants. Are they willing to eat exotic foodstuff like bears, tapirs, condors, deer, and moose? Maybe they like the novelty of ice or snow shaving. Could sell to a stall, or to a restaurant.

Talk to an Actual Merchant: Have Keiko talk to a number of merchants. Learn about how they run their business. Compare notes with Mari-sensei.

Arrange trade - We may want to arrange trade deals with the Pangolin military in exchange for coins and ongoing support. Specifically, we might produce explosive seals and other conveniences so that we have something to trade for.
 
Kiba said:
Botantical gardens - We need a long term arrangement to keep and grow plants Noburi found. Apothecaries are also another alternative. We could probably store the seed in storage seals and still be able to germinate?
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"Hazō, now that you've brought us to the Jashin-damned North Pole, what's on the menu? What was the plan?"

"Ah, well, I was thinking of starting a garden."

Hazō has died. Please roll your next character.
 
OliWhail said:
General request for assistance:

If anyone can help figure out what actually happens when you compress three million cubic meters of air into the size of a small notebook, it would be hugely appreciated. Even if you, like me, cannot actually do that math, relevant sources would be helpful.

I have seen rough estimates in the thread for what it would do, but we'd like to be able to give a ruling more sophisticated than "it makes a big boom, iunno how big"


Truly the most awesome force in the universe.
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The real question is whether kinetic energy is conserved, which would mean that the released ball would have an obscene temperature from the compression, or if it would have the same temperature as the gas before compression. If the former, you may be looking at nuclear reactions. If the latter, you're going to have some extremely strange condensate matter inner layer cooled by a phase-transitioned outer layer expanding to equilibrium and then boiling off as it absorbs energy from the environment. The question is whether the inner layer ends up chilled enough to remain a quantum condensate, or just expands to ordinary liquid air.



faflec said:
I'm just going to pretend the box is a cubic meter because happy numbers.

Density would be...3678000kgm-3​...

Oh wow, that's more dense than a supermassive black hole. I'm fairly certain everything dies.

Let's not do this.
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Black hole density isn't constant. It goes down as the hole gets bigger. A black hole the size of the solar system would actually have an average density of less than water.
 
Veedrac said:
That it's humorously ironic to start a garden only once we get to the least suitable place to host a garden.
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Well, it's impossible for to us cultivate plants if we are always on the move.

I figure the summon realm is as good as any place, though what concerns me now is the potential ecological disaster of introducing new plants into the summon realm.
 
Lailoken said:
The real question is whether kinetic energy is conserved, which would mean that the released ball would have an obscene temperature from the compression, or if it would have the same temperature as the gas before compression. If the former, you may be looking at nuclear reactions. If the latter, you're going to have some extremely strange condensate matter inner layer cooled by a phase-transitioned outer layer expanding to equilibrium and then boiling off as it absorbs energy from the environment. The question is whether the inner layer ends up chilled enough to remain a quantum condensate, or just expands to ordinary liquid air.
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If it wasn't conserved we'd probably notice the air being really cold every time we used the implosion seals.
 
Oneiros43 said:
@Veedrac what other things would you suggest we do in snow right now? Noburi has his medical research project. The only other thing I see doing is messing with pangolins. Everything else that I can think of is either collect resources or interact with civilians. While I'm down interacting with civilians figured most of the hivemind paranoia of Zabuza makes that unlikely to win
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Social social social! We've had a lot of setbacks due to neglecting social interactions and mental health, and there are several specific issues to address there (Keiko, Mari, Hazou). Deprioritizing social has bad immediate effects, and it means Hazou-the-character won't get better at it either (which, again, has tripped us up a lot). Let's get that foot a little less acquainted with his mouth.


Radvic said:
giving it an attractive color will harness the power of memes to garner more votes
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Villain! Have you forgotten the neon catastrophe?


OliWhail said:
If anyone can help figure out what actually happens when you compress three million cubic meters of air into the size of a small notebook, it would be hugely appreciated. Even if you, like me, cannot actually do that math, relevant sources would be helpful.

I have seen rough estimates in the thread for what it would do, but we'd like to be able to give a ruling more sophisticated than "it makes a big boom, iunno how big"
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Radvic said:
(awful awful pseudoscience ahead: this ignores lots of relevant laws (like literally anything about energy)) For determining if atoms should fuse, we can compare the average distance between air molecules and the size of their nuclei, as this source mentions is a 1:10^20 difference in solids, likely larger in air. This would imply we need to increase the density of air by at least 20 orders of magnitude to get something to fuse.
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I think this is about right, though I'm a nonexpert generalizing as well. Wiki says the strong nuclear force can be modeled as (1/r^2) * e^(-r/L), with the decay length L about 1.5 fm. It's about a hundred times strong than Coulomb repulsion between nuclei at ~1 fm, so equal at ~10 fm and much smaller at ~30 fm (though wiki claims it's already negligible by a few fm out).

Air at room temperature + atmospheric pressure has an average interparticle distance of ~2nm. Distance ~ density^-1/3, so upping density by a factor of 10^10 reduces distance to about 1 picometer, or 30-500x further out than needed for fusion.

Now, there are nuclear fusion methods that use fuel at ~10^6 kg/m^3, much less than our 10^10 kg/m^3. But:

Wikipedia said:
"This density is not high enough to create any useful rate of fusion on its own. However, during the collapse of the fuel, shock waves also form and travel into the center of the fuel at high speed. When they meet their counterparts moving in from the other sides of the fuel in the center, the density of that spot is raised much further.

Given the correct conditions, the fusion rate in the region highly compressed by the shock wave can give off significant amounts of highly energetic alpha particles. Due to the high density of the surrounding fuel, they move only a short distance before being "thermalised", losing their energy to the fuel as heat. This additional energy will cause additional fusion reactions in the heated fuel, giving off more high-energy particles. This process spreads outward from the centre, leading to a kind of self-sustaining burn known as ignition."
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The process is designed to create these waves by exploding stuff around the pellet; it's not clear to me that simply releasing the liquid air would have a similar effect, but it's not impossible. (There is a lot of electrostatic energy stored in the liquid, but my tentative guess is it would mostly just fly apart as a result.)

Also, for those worried about black holes, note that these pellets are slightly denser than the "supermassive black hole" density of 9*10^5 listed on Wikipedia, but haven't caused any emergencies. (They do involve a lot less mass, though.)
 
I'm starting to think that the answer to a lot of "Why has no one ever tried this before?" questions might just be "They did, and our ancestors didn't survive to produce us in those universes."
 
Alright: here's my immediate action plan. It's optimized for starting an independent organization to help civilians, and later deal with the Elemental Nations should they object to us making civilian lives better.

[X] Action Plan: To Build an Empire

We're as safe as we're going to be. Let's finish some projects, and start new ones with a focus on helping civilians and forming an independent organization. This plan is formatted by people involved in activities.

Have a general discussion with the team about our plans for the future. Outline the following general goals:
  • Spend a month or so in Snow finishing up projects and training
    • skywalkers, Noburi research, Keiko summons, inventive seal applications we want to talk about with Kagome. Wait until skywalkers are done to go substantial distances for safety concerns.
  • Build a more permanent base
    • Outline idea for a skybase using five seal barriers and force walls so we can have a base in the sky above anywhere we want
    • Outline idea for a zeppelin so we can have a way of moving through the sky without revealing sky-walkers
  • Get Akane back
    • Either do a mission for Jiraiya or sell a seal/idea to him
  • Build an information network
    • Hire civilian middle men to supply merchants with goods (e.g. chakra beast parts) and provide us with information from the merchants (so we don't need to physically gather the information)
  • Find out places that civilians are doing particularly well or poorly in and why
    • Address those problems if possible
    • Be prepared for responses from the nation the civilians are in
Keiko summoning things:
  • Contract a Pangolin who would be willing and capable of digging regularly for us. Preferably with relevant structural knowledge
  • Contract a Pangolin to teach us about running intelligence networks
Kagome and Hazou sealing research:
  • Make a sealing lab. Make it hidden, but feel free to liberally use MEW.
  • Research the purifier seal, make sure it doesn't kill us in our sleep, and replace the one we're using now
  • Kagome finish the sky walkers
  • Hazou research Silence mine then Banshee slayer
  • Ask Kagome what he thinks would happen if we collected air in a bunch of implosion seals without breaking them, then set them off all at once with an explosive seal. Do tests.
Noburi Medical projects:
  • Have free members of the party collect small animals and plants for Noburi to experiment with chakra water on
  • Build an underground area for Noburi to do his experiments. Make it hidden, but feel free to liberally use MEW.
 
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