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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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ContextBot said:
New Overlords who try to be nicer of course! Plenty new marriages and concubines around!
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Marriages with whom? All the ninja are dead. Surely you're not implying that noble Leaf ninja should take filthy Earth civilian spouses?

Also, don't forget that you're stuck with the same number of ninja trying to cover twice the territory. (Plus you've just killed everyone who knew the terrain and the fauna.)
 
Velorien said:
Marriages with whom? All the ninja are dead. Surely you're not implying that noble Leaf ninja should take filthy Earth civilian spouses?
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Hashiramas Will blesses all, the Fifth and Seventh provided proof that ALL are loyal Leaf citizen by heart (Ami + Goketsu). Only "Traitor"-Hazou, relative to Madara is truley lost.

- Itachi

Velorien said:
Also, don't forget that you're stuck with the same number of ninja trying to cover twice the territory. (Plus you've just killed everyone who knew the terrain and the fauna.)
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True, but Leaf Border is basically non-existance at this point. Destroying another major village is a good defense on the other hand.

edit: word
 
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Velorien said:
What exactly do you think happens to a civilian population when 100% of the ninja who used to protect it from chakra beasts suddenly and permanently disappear?
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Also, Asuma explicitly wanted to mainly target civilians, and laid out a credible plan for depopulating the earth country.

By the time most Hidden Rock ninja were dead, Earth Country's civilian population would already be completely fucked.
 
Left-Hand Mutant said:
Also, Asuma explicitly wanted to mainly target civilians, and laid out a credible plan for depopulating the earth country.

By the time most Hidden Rock ninja were dead, Earth Country's civilian population would already be completely fucked.
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Hazou was pretty supportive of such ideas:

eaglejarl said:
Asuma studied him for a moment, then turned back to Hazō. "I like the rivers idea. Far more destructive than anything I'd come up with. While Orochimaru and his support team are drawing Rock's forces back across the border we can send another team to execute your plan.
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eaglejarl said:
He glanced at Hazō and made a tossing-away gesture with one hand. "Oh, and we'll resettle all their civilians into Fire. Better life for them, more economic growth for us. The clans may feel free to adopt any of them that you find useful and if there are any mutual claims we'll have a lottery to settle them."

"Hold up," said Akimichi Chōza, finally breaking his silence. "Asuma, you can't really be serious about this. Right?"
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Left-Hand Mutant said:
By the time most Hidden Rock ninja were dead, Earth Country's civilian population would already be completely fucked.
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Finally! Access to the Northern Ocean!

- Goketsu ContextBot
 
I mean it's probably nothing big, but the former Porcupine Summoner was likely a Hidden Moon summoner:

eaglejarl said:
"Movin' on, let's talk about the Porkies. Things have been getting a little tense with them, and they've always been prickly—see what I did there? heh—so I'm a little out of the loop on their Summoner. I haven't heard anything about her for twenty years and she was already a grandma back then. You mayfly humans don't often make it to eighty, so I'd be surprised if she was still kicking around. Dunno if she passed on her scroll or what. I do know that she lived in..." He frowned and looked over at Asuma. "What's that place? The Oozy Temple? Something like that."
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eaglejarl said:
Massive simian shoulders allow for truly magnificent shrugs. "Dunno. She came from some dinky little place...Sky? Star? Moon? Something night-related anyway. I doubt they had the juice to stop her."
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We should keep this in mind, or the Porcupines mind take revange.
 
My understanding was that borders aren't closed for civilians, merchants move freely (when not specifically raided or sabotaged) and resettling is allowed or even encouraged by the ninja and non-ninja elite. Or in other words that civilians are seen as interchangable with not much in the way of nationality. And I don't mean that they see themselves like that, only that they are seen by many Leaf ninja like that. Including the Sarutobis, Tsunade, ISC, and even Hiashi if he wasn't lying to Tsunade.
 
Rafin said:
My understanding was that borders aren't closed for civilians, merchants move freely (when not specifically raided or sabotaged) and resettling is allowed or even encouraged by the ninja and non-ninja elite. Or in other words that civilians are seen as interchangable with not much in the way of nationality. And I don't mean that they see themselves like that, only that they are seen by many Leaf ninja like that. Including the Sarutobis, Tsunade, ISC, and even Hiashi if he wasn't lying to Tsunade.
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It is worth noting that even if they have little legal barrier to moving around, it's still not exactly easy. Up and moving as a peasant farmer is risky enough with so little wealth/food, nevermind doing that when the woods you have to travel through are filled with deadly monsters.
 
Rereading that section with Emma, I noticed this chunk:
Velorien said:
Well, summon chakra is different. Better. Stronger. What do you think's gonna happen if a kid like you, with your measly eight elements—"

"Five elements," Asuma interjected.

"…with your measly five elements, tries to drain something your puny chakra system ain't designed to handle?"
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Now, this is almost certainly just Enma forgetting how many Elements humans have. But given the still-not-ruled-out possibility that Shadow Element is actually a standard human Element that anyone can learn, I wonder whether it might instead be Enma knowing something we don't about human Elements - either something Asuma wanted kept secret, or something Asuma didn't know either. In which case there might be two other human-learnable Elements out there.

… a further thought. Terumi Mei has Lava Element. The bloodline Element of the Terumi is Boil, so either she has two bloodline elements, or you don't need a bloodline to learn Lava. And Cannai thought Lava was a human Element. It's possible, then, that Lava is actually a human-learnable Element, like (hypothetically) Shadow is. Oro and Tsunade did vivisect some Lava Element users, so you'd think they'd have noticed, but they might not have spread the information.

(Also, I finally found the quote where Snowflake lets slip that the Nara use Yin. Added a link to my Elements post.)
 
Kyreneryk said:
But given the still-not-ruled-out possibility that Shadow Element is actually a standard human Element that anyone can learn, I wonder whether it might instead be Enma knowing something we don't about human Elements - either something Asuma wanted kept secret, or something Asuma didn't know either.
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My operating assumption is that this is the case. Yin and Yang. Then again, some of Orochimaru's dialogue about the Nara element is….contradictory. Even with itself.
 
_The_Bomb said:
My operating assumption is that this is the case. Yin and Yang. Then again, some of Orochimaru's dialogue about the Nara element is….contradictory. Even with itself.
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My active hypotheses about Shadow Element are:
  1. Shadow Element requires a "seed" in the same way that Orochimaru described other bloodline elements as working, and that seed can be derived from any one of the Five entities, so that Thinker clans can learn it but ninja in general can't.
    1. Prediction: Most Nara adoptees cannot learn Nara techniques.
  2. Shadow Element can be learned by any ninja, and is based on or related to Yin chakra but not identical to Yin Release.
    1. Prediction: Nara and Yamanaka techniques do not share half-costing/crossover bonuses.
  3. Shadow Element can be learned by any ninja, and is identical to Yin Release.
    1. Prediction: YSJ XP can actually be applied to "Resolve or Yin techniques", and Nara and Yamanaka techniques share half-costing/crossover bonuses.
    2. Prediction (lesser confidence): Shadow Element (actually Yin Element) is sufficient to learn Yamanaka techniques, and vice versa.
My problem with number three is that if this were possible, we might have expected to see some Nara and some Yamanaka using the other clan's techniques, even if only basic ones, and we haven't seen anything of the sort. But maybe they're not that closely allied?

ContextBot said:
Those guys also used a Plant like element:

Elements are weird.
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Thanks for the quote! Added (/will add imminently) a reference to the Maita possibly having bloodline Plant Element.
 
Kyreneryk said:
… a further thought. Terumi Mei has Lava Element. The bloodline Element of the Terumi is Boil, so either she has two bloodline elements, or you don't need a bloodline to learn Lava. And Cannai thought Lava was a human Element. It's possible, then, that Lava is actually a human-learnable Element, like (hypothetically) Shadow is. Oro and Tsunade did vivisect some Lava Element users, so you'd think they'd have noticed, but they might not have spread the information
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Or she got some sweet bioseals
 
eaglejarl said:
The current Remote Explosive Runes (REs) don't work with MARS but there's no reason you couldn't research such a variant. Assuming you do, MARS chains normally start and finish on the same initiative (although we might rule differently in the face of egregiously long chains), so ordinarily all of the REs would be firing at the same time mechanics-wise. As such, all of the explosions constitute a single attack. On the other hand, MARS chains do have a few milliseconds of lag in them from one segment to the next, so the REs aren't firing *literally* at the same time. In essence, the air explodes and then a few milliseconds later it explodes again, then again, etc. Not sure that makes sense by physics but sure whatever.

Explosions from any source (seals, runes, jutsu…) start from a point and radiate outwards. As has been shown, runes have small and unpreventable variances in them caused by their structure and their infusion process. As such, two REs that hit the same zone won't detonate in precisely the same location – they will be "somewhere towards the middle of the zone, but not literally the precise geometric center". That means that a piece of cover that protects against the first explosion might be less effective against the second one which comes from a slightly different direction.

Putting these facts together, victims of a group of REs will make one dodge roll against any number of REs fired on the same MARS chain, but the TN will be based on how many REs there are.

Regardless of whether it's tags or jutsu or runes, multiple explosions of equivalent strength going off on the same initiative compound with rapidly diminishing returns. The first one contributes its full TN and each one after that contributes 25% of what the previous one did. So:

  • 1 RE: TN 100/80/60/40 => +100 / + 80 / + 60 / +40
  • 2 RE: TN 125/100/75/50 => +25 / +20 / +15 / +10
  • 3 RE: TN 132/104/79/53 => +7 / +4 / +4 / +3 (round up 6.25, 4, 3.75, 2.5)
  • 4 RE: TN 134/105/80/54 => +2 / +1 / +1 / +1 (round up 1.75, 1, 1, 0.75)
  • 5 RE: TN 135/106/81/55 => +1 / +1 / +1 / +1
  • 6+ RE: no further mechanical bonus
(Note: We would prefer not to put in the brainpower to figure out how to handle a barrage of explosives of unequal strength, but we will if it's absolutely necessary.)


No, it does not. All the explosions get grouped together as specified above – if Hazō fires 3 and Kei fire 2 then you get the "5 runes" version, and if Hazō fires 3 and Kei fires 3 then you still get the "5 runes equivalent" version.

We're going to make an exception to the normal ambush rules for this situation:

All explosions that happen sufficiently close together happen before Akatsuki can react, and get grouped as above. After that we are into combat and everyone responds on their initiative. Thus, if Hazou and Kei are staggering their attacks:

  • Hazō's Alertness (and therefore initiative) is 36
  • Kei's Alertness (and therefore initiative) is 49
  • Sasori's Alertness is HDK but probably higher than 49

Hazō opens combat by firing 5 REs, which collectively hit at 135. That is a single attack that happens before combat. As soon as it is resolved, combat starts. Sasori moves, then Kei fires 5 more runes which collectively hit at 135 (assume no delay for Runic Explosives firing), then Hazō moves again.

If instead Hazō and Kei fire simultaneously then their attacks will both hit before Akatsuki moves, but diminishing returns says that you still only get the effect of 5 runes hitting together. (This is a repeat of what's stated above, just for clarity.)



No, it does not. All the explosions get grouped together.


Yes, it does. Hidan and Sasori likely have Alertness high enough that they can move after the first explosion, so they would dodge 1 Runic Explosive, then take their turns. Further Runic Explosives would be rolled separately and may hit them, but not necessarily if they move, bunker up so the explosion hits their bunker first, etc.
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Can this please be marked as "Informational" and/or added to the Fated to Die rules doc? finding it was a pain.


Also, stacked explosives of unequal strength might prominently feature in the Riftwar, as RER 50% miss chance means our opening barrage will be a mix of on-target and missed-by-a-zone, so it would be good to have mechanics for them.
Fortunately, I think there's a really easy and intuitive way to extend these mechanics to cover unequal-strength explosives:

Put all explosives in a zero-indexed list, sorted by highest TN.
Divide each TN by (4^Index)
Sum all elements of the list.


In practice:
Hazou sets of three RER2s at the exact moment an Improved Explosive Seal activates. Two RER2s hit the intended zone(TN120), one RER2 hit an adjacent zone(TN100), and due to incredible luck, the Improved Explosive seal goes of a mere pictosecond before it would be destroyed(TN42).

Remote Explosive Rune 2.0 (in zone): TN 120 / 1 = 120
Remote Explosive Rune 2.0 (in zone): TN 120 / 4 = 30
Remote Explosive Rune 2.0 (adjacent zone): TN 100 / 16 = 7(6.25 rounded up)
Improved Explosive Seal: TN 42 / 64 = 1(0.65 rounded up)

120+30+7+1 = TN 158

This look pretty good. lets compare a few scenarios for balance

5 RER2, all on-target

Remote Explosive Rune 2.0 (in zone): TN 120 / 1 = 120
Remote Explosive Rune 2.0 (in zone): TN 120 / 4 = 30
Remote Explosive Rune 2.0 (in zone): TN 120 / 16 = 8(7.5 round up)
Remote Explosive Rune 2.0 (in zone): TN 120 / 64 = 2(1.875 round up)
Remote Explosive Rune 2.0 (in zone): TN 120 / 128 = 1(0.46875 round up)
Total TN 161
This is the highest-possible number for uplift right now, with a full barrage of test-fired RER2s. this number is mostly useful as a high mark to contextualize other numbers

5 RER2, 3/5 are off-target

Remote Explosive Rune 2.0 (in zone): TN 120 / 1 = 120
Remote Explosive Rune 2.0 (in zone): TN 120 / 4 = 30
Remote Explosive Rune 2.0 (adjacent zone): TN 100 / 16 = 7(6.25 round up)
Remote Explosive Rune 2.0 (adjacent zone): TN 100 / 64 = 2(1.5625 round up)
Remote Explosive Rune 2.0 (adjacent zone): TN 100 / 128 = 1(0.3906 round up)
Total TN 160
Interestingly, this suggests that in a large enough barrage, test-firing the runes for precise aiming doesn't mater much. as long as two or more RER2s get direct hits in the zone, it's basically fine if some slip off-target.

This kinda makes sense, as the reduced explosive force at the epicenter is mostly made up for by the challenge of dodging or sheltering while surrounded by multiple converging blast waves from different directions.
Still, it's important to note that this barely changed the TN.

5 RER2, 4/5 are off-target

Remote Explosive Rune 2.0 (in zone): TN 120 / 1 = 120
Remote Explosive Rune 2.0 (adjacent zone): TN 100 / 4 = 25
Remote Explosive Rune 2.0 (adjacent zone): TN 100 / 16 = 7(6.25 round up)
Remote Explosive Rune 2.0 (adjacent zone): TN 100 / 64 = 2(1.5625 round up)
Remote Explosive Rune 2.0 (adjacent zone): TN 100 / 128 = 1(0.3906 round up)
Total TN 155
Here we see the TN noticeably suffer. it's not a huge penalty, and there's only about a 18% chance of getting one or less direct hits with 5 RERs, but it's notable.

SIN-4 (four Implosion Seals)

Implosion Seal: TN 50 / 4 = 50
Implosion Seal: TN 50 / 4 = 13(12.5 rounded up)
Implosion Seal: TN 50 / 4 = 4(3.125 rounded up)
Implosion Seal: TN 50 / 4 = 1(0.78125 rounded up)
Total 68
Whoa, that's pretty big. good enough to injure an experienced Chunin with a good build(Ath 50, +12 from Substitution 24, +6 from a tag from some other buff). We should consider testing if SIN-4s are reliably safe.

An RER2 blowing up an Implosion seal

Remote Explosive Rune 2.0 (in zone): TN 120 / 1 = 120
Implosion Seal: TN 50 / 4 = 13(12.5 rounded up)
Total TN 133
Neat. the Implosion seal does up the TN by a surprising amount. This is probably a bigger buff than makes sense if the implosion seal is at the absolute center of the blast, but makes decent sense for a ninja stuck between an Implosion Seal behind them and an RER3 explosion in front.



hmmm... these numbers are a bit higher that I'd expected. a second explosion of any size adds a lot of kick, even when it's much smaller than the main blast, which makes sense if the explosions are at different angles to the defender, but not if they have the exact same epicenter. maybe the QMs already looked at this method and shot it down for that reason?

Still, this method is a pretty intuitive extention, and the numbers are in the general range of sanity(always worse than all-big-blast, but better than all-small-blast), which is nice. If the QMs end up needing a method to calculate TN for a mixed-strength set of explosions, but not having the spoons to apply to the issue deeply, this might make a good stop-gap ruling. Dunno it it outperforms "QM picks a circumstance bonus based on vibes" though.
 
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eaglejarl said:
By the way: a belated Merry Christmas to those who celebrate it. And a happy Hanukkah sameach to those who celebrate that.
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I forgot to wish quite a few friends a Happy Hanukkah yesterday, so I've been going around sending this text like it was intentional.

Now that Christmakkah is over, I'd like to wish you a happy Hanukkah!​
​
 
I still feel like from a simulationist perspective the air hardening rune should have an affect on explosions & EM nukes.
 
Kyreneryk said:
@eaglejarl @Paperclipped @Velorien ; a while back, we voted in the following training plan to spend Kei's Yamanaka XP. It doesn't appear to have been implemented.
Could this be fixed, please?
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Done, thanks.

Dictator4Hire said:
Murderers and Malicous Miscommunications

(Scene: Hazou while searching for Jiraiya in the afterlife spots Nagato approaching the Rift)​

Hazou: "Stop right there, Akatsuki scum! I won't allow you to reenter the Human Path to complete your monstrous ritual!"

Nagato: "Monstrous? What do you think I was attempting to do?"

Hazou: "You were going to subjugate all of humanity under your tyrannical rule, obviously."

Nagato: "What? Of course not: I was going to connect all humans' minds, ninja and civilians alike, into a network that anyone could access on their own volition. With perfect empathy and voluntary telepathy people would be better able to connect with one another not just as neighbors but as friends across all international borders too. We need that level of coordination to stop the destruction of humanity itself."

Hazou: "Yes, well, if those justifications were entirely reasonable why did you kidnap the jinchuuriki? That was definitely a horrible action."

Nagato: "I tried diplomacy initially, but I soon learned esoteric, malevolent outside forces were acting against me. I could not afford to waste time and I needed as much chakra as possible in a short amount of time, so as a utilitarian I decided that nine lives were worth less than at least one village's entire ninja population."

Hazou: "...That does sound pragmatic, but it doesn't matter: you allied yourself with mass murderers in order to achieve your dream!"

Nagato: "Regrettable, I assure you, yet I had no choice: as strong as I was I still needed capable allies to ensure my plan reached fruition fast enough to unite the people to resist the influence of the forces beyond the barriers. Hidan, as selfless as he was even with his functional immortality, opted to directly contest the entity known as Jashin's will by taking on all of Jashin's blood-lust in order to divert that bloodshed from affecting the ritual's preparations. Yes, hundreds, perhaps even thousands of people died, but an unconstrained Jashin and his ilk would lead to the eventual ruin of human civilization. Even as I knew my ritual was doomed to failure I gave my life for my compatriots in the hopes that they would find a way to contain the multiple entities threatening the longevity of humanity itself. Tell me: how successful have my friends been in that regard? Have they either infiltrated or assumed direct control over the Elemental Nations? Shouldn't they be looking for me here too if you, a... chunin? I have never met before are capable of reaching me?"

Hazou: "Uh..."

Nagato: "...Did none of this information reach the Elemental Nations after my death? Well, I suppose your opinion of me and my organization must be... low... if you consider us "scum". Hidan was originally in charge of public relations before his assimilation with Jashin given his ability to keep diplomatic channels open even when people tried to enthusiastically murder him. Perhaps Jashin overwhelmed him and all of his thoughts turned to bloodshed..? No matter: as long as no one else has embraced Jashin the entity should not be able to influence ignorant people on the Human Path for a time."

Hazou: "Er..."

Nagato: "If someone were foolish enough to embrace Jashin they would find themselves justifying large scale atrocities in order to advance their, but ultimately its, goals. Have you experienced any inclinations to wipe out large numbers of people who have never personally wronged you or yours? There may still be time to save y-"

Yuno: "HAZOU! GET AWAY FROM HIM! HE WAS A TALENTED ENOUGH ORATOR TO COMPROMISE AND RECRUIT MULTIPLE S-RANK NINJA! HE IS DANGEROUS EVEN WITHOUT CHAKRA! STOP TALKING WITH HIM BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE!"

Hazou: "You are absolutely right Yuno, thank you. Enjoy your stay in the afterlife, Nagato: you will never leave to threaten the Human Path again."

*after ditching and somehow ensuring Nagato can never cross the Rift*

Yuno, whispering in prayer: "As you willed it so it has been done, my lord."
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I enjoyed this omake. Threadmarked, and +1 XP for the team.
 
Kyreneryk said:
non-urgent question; how much of a model do you have of what the sealing disciplines we haven't unlocked yet (biosealing, Minatosealing, (carved sealing?)) can and can't do? (Question sparked by Oro recently claiming that his SCs are "competent elite jōnin" but no more, suggesting that you might have at least the top layers of an Orochimaru pyramid built, for which you would need to know roughly what kind of buffs he can expect out of his bioseals.)
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It is modeled at the level of "these disciplines are good at these things", though we haven't figured out the limits of what high levels in the discipline can achieve.

_The_Bomb said:
Was Jiraiya a biosealer (of at least minimal skill) as was written here, or is this no longer accurate?
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Hazou's understanding is that Jiraiya indeed knew how to make bioseals, and was rather good at the theoretical aspects, though his actual practice of the art was held back by a relative lack of conventional medical skills.

faflec said:
What is Orochimaru's knowledge of how much Team Uplift knows about runecrafting? There are currently two contradictory statements (below), in which Orochimaru confirms that Hazou has/will leak runecrafting knowledge to Team Uplift; and makes the claim that he and Hazou cannot afford to leak runecrafting knowledge to "ordinary Leaf ninja" (read: Team Uplift).
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Hazou thinks that Orochimaru wants to minimize both who knows about runecrafting (currently: himself, Hazou + clan, Tsunade, Naruto), as well as who can do it (currently: himself + Hazou). In the latter quote, he's presumably referencing the latter objective.
 
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