I was under the impression that shaping metal with Earthshaping was incredibly laborious, because you had to move it around as extremely thin slivers and couldn't control it directly (gathering of gold being as these slivers, or as highly gold-rich rock that's then easy to extract). Is that incorrect? (Also, are ryo really pure gold?)
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
- Start date
-
- Tags
- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
- Location
- Yes.
It used to be this but that got retcon'd IIRC.
EDIT: Specifically, we can manipulate ores as we would anything else, like iron ore and (presumably) gold ore.
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
Naruto reimagined as a deathworld without most of the canon plot holes.
forums.sufficientvelocity.com
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Nah
We have pure gold bars though. Most places aren't fussed about coinage as long as the weight is good.
Should be fine.
Obligatory out-faflecing faflec celebration.
- Location
- Yes.
Oh, we were talking about the pure element? My mistake, then.
Oh gold doesn't have an ore form in nature. "Gold ore" is elemental gold mixed with dirt. "Iron ore" is chemically different from "Iron" so it can easily be manipulated by ES.
- Location
- Yes.
Huh, did not know that.
- Location
- USA
Seal research rolls have been added into the chapter.
- Location
- Liverpool
Technique Hacking Effort Post for the Future
I know it isn't in the books for a while, but I wanted to take a look at Earthshaping. Particularly, the general TH path we'd take in an ideal world, to gain veterancy towards improving our best/most plot relevant jutsu. Biggest advantages i can see are if we can decrease/eliminate the ongoing chakra cost, and if we can shape things faster without a time ladder penalty. These would let us use PS quicker/easier/more often, generally opening up options. It's entirely likely that by the time we get TH research time, the shape of the quest will be fundamentally different, and/or we'll care more about Minato Sealing. but if so that's fine.
Analysis of the completion and refinement system
Refinement makes the jutsu stronger, with completion acting as a balance. With no other context, we'd want to take as long as possible to do jutsu creation. However, if we're anywhere close to the TN, more days means more chances for bad roles, and therefore more flaws that we can't afford to spend Fate points trying to remedy. Also, we're always going to be on some sort of timer, so spending longer than necessary on a project isn't ideal. The best bet is to have TH over the TN by enough not to have to worry as much, and just truck along. However, since we won't know TNs, it'll take bit of experimenting and familiarity. We don't know how tweaks and new jutsu will affect complexity and the TN compared to each other, for example.
How high should we get our TH?
No idea! Ideally to 40 before we mess with ES, but I would say at least 20 before trying any project, and 30 before trying any project we're likely to care about.
How to Decrease Complexity
Veterancy applies here, like with sealing. Same with the TN decreasing it seems. So we want to have worked on a jutsu as similar as possible, that isn't the same technique due to the harder difficulty we've been warned about. ES is an Earth-element maneuver, slowly feeding our chakra into the earth in a maintained effect. Jutsu that share attributes with it are more helpful.
Do we Want to Decrease Complexity?
Yes. Of course. Getting through projects faster lets us do more cool projects. And we can always take up to TH AB to refine after we finish, where we don't have to put any points at all into complexity, so there's some flexibility.
Plus, since the only demo we've seen was from a basic jutsu sample where we were told not to take the numbers as gospel, if we're facing complexity of 30+, we'd want to reduce the time as much as possible.
Do we have enough chakra?
We can only buy up to chakra AB of points at a time. Since one has to go to complexity, we can spend at most AB-1 on refinement a day. Since right now our AB is 4, that means that until we are on those very last optional refinement days, we can't get refinement points past 3. Which means the absolute most points of refinement we can get when we finish complexity is 9. We don't really know how much things cost, but that does also include buying back any flaws. In the example from Paper, quite a few shifts of success were wasted, and then quite a bit of refinement went towards fixing an added flaw.
I think the short answer is that, yeah, increasing chakra to have an AB of 5 would be great. We'd be able to get more refinement early on and/or finish products quicker if we had good enough TH. That's an extra extra requirement, so more of a stretch goal. But, if Minato Sealing is a combo of sealing and TH, and literally depends on our internal chakra, there's a nontrivial chance increasing chakra would benefit that as well. Plus, I wanna summon Cannai one day, dang it!
What about the chakra cave water?
It wouldn't be a terrible idea to test our a single sealing project with the water still in our system, so we know how much it helps. Maybe it lowers TN significantly, or gives bonus success, or makes our effective chakra higher for buying success or something. Regardless, knowing what the effect is would help us plan better.
BUT, if we can get a rune that does that, we can explore at our leisure. And TH takes times, which we don't really have, plus chakra, which we don't have enough of. The only decent argument I can think for trying TH while under the water's influence is that it may help us get a better idea about what the water's doing, in a way that makes it easier for us to make the seal by bringing in our TH to it. I don't know that that's worth it though.
How much of this is conjecture?
Most of it! I mean, the math parts are straightforward (AB 5 > AB 4, veterancy > no veterancy, etc), but how much things matter or help, I have no idea! I'll update this part of the post (and likely the TL;dr at the bottom) once we know more.
Recommended Veterancy Pathway
-Highest priority, but not the first target, should be Living Roots. It's a Maneuver, like ES. It has a similar effect of putting chakra into the earth and sensing what's going on. We're somewhat familiar with it, and have levels in it. Which means it's both more knowledgeable to us, and any improvements to it are upside anyway.
-Any of the regular level 1 techniques we grabbed. Trying to tweak a new technique means if we mess up getting practice on something we weren't going to run anyway, it's no real loss, and we can still use the base version. And if we make something entirely new out of it, we don't have to give up xp switching to the new and superior jutsu.
-MEW. We know it, we love it, we never leveled it above level 1. It's also a maneuver, which means it's also harder than an attack or defense, but more similar to ES. Increasing efficacy out of it would be useful as well.
-I genuinely don't know how BoC would work, since it's already an offspring of ES. It may negatively impact our ability to hack ES, so I am recommending against it until we get IC confirmation it wouldn't be an issue.
Other Techniques we may want to improve anyway
-PEA. It's a good strong toolkit technique we'd want to improve if we can, like decreasing costs for higher level usage, or making the activation a supplemental (even reactionary) in exchange for a decreased effect. Plus, tweaking to make a move faster may be good practice for trying to make ES faster. HOWEVER, we did promise the Pangolins not to modify any of their technique, so it would be a further violation of a deal that we had already broken off.
-BRI, or the other good level 1 skills we have. If we could improve bleeding river impalement or stone storm barrier by TH before leveling it, we'd know if it was worth it or not, and how likely we were to use it.
Suggested Earth TH Queue. Number of * indicate how important I think the step is.
1) *Try Tweaking a random level 1 skill (like stone bullet)
2) **Try modifying MEW
3) ***Try tweaking Living Roots
4) *Try tweaking BRI, or other good level 1 skill (like SSB or RAotT)
5) **Try tweaking PEA (thread consensus on breaking the agreement with the Pangolins notwithstanding)
6) ***TH Earth Shaping
Tl;dr:
More chakra would be helpful, but hopefully not vital. If we wanna modify ES, and we should, we should do some tweaking projects first. Living Roots is our best veterancy testbed. Trying on another good technique first to get a good sense of difficulty and a new shiny would be good.
I'll try to include my proposed TH stats for ES in this post when I have time, plus for a couple of the others. I'm also down if folks have suggested modifications to add them here.
Feedback/improvement/telling me why I'm wrong (politely) always welcome.
I know it isn't in the books for a while, but I wanted to take a look at Earthshaping. Particularly, the general TH path we'd take in an ideal world, to gain veterancy towards improving our best/most plot relevant jutsu. Biggest advantages i can see are if we can decrease/eliminate the ongoing chakra cost, and if we can shape things faster without a time ladder penalty. These would let us use PS quicker/easier/more often, generally opening up options. It's entirely likely that by the time we get TH research time, the shape of the quest will be fundamentally different, and/or we'll care more about Minato Sealing. but if so that's fine.
Analysis of the completion and refinement system
Refinement makes the jutsu stronger, with completion acting as a balance. With no other context, we'd want to take as long as possible to do jutsu creation. However, if we're anywhere close to the TN, more days means more chances for bad roles, and therefore more flaws that we can't afford to spend Fate points trying to remedy. Also, we're always going to be on some sort of timer, so spending longer than necessary on a project isn't ideal. The best bet is to have TH over the TN by enough not to have to worry as much, and just truck along. However, since we won't know TNs, it'll take bit of experimenting and familiarity. We don't know how tweaks and new jutsu will affect complexity and the TN compared to each other, for example.
How high should we get our TH?
No idea! Ideally to 40 before we mess with ES, but I would say at least 20 before trying any project, and 30 before trying any project we're likely to care about.
How to Decrease Complexity
Veterancy applies here, like with sealing. Same with the TN decreasing it seems. So we want to have worked on a jutsu as similar as possible, that isn't the same technique due to the harder difficulty we've been warned about. ES is an Earth-element maneuver, slowly feeding our chakra into the earth in a maintained effect. Jutsu that share attributes with it are more helpful.
Do we Want to Decrease Complexity?
Yes. Of course. Getting through projects faster lets us do more cool projects. And we can always take up to TH AB to refine after we finish, where we don't have to put any points at all into complexity, so there's some flexibility.
Plus, since the only demo we've seen was from a basic jutsu sample where we were told not to take the numbers as gospel, if we're facing complexity of 30+, we'd want to reduce the time as much as possible.
Do we have enough chakra?
We can only buy up to chakra AB of points at a time. Since one has to go to complexity, we can spend at most AB-1 on refinement a day. Since right now our AB is 4, that means that until we are on those very last optional refinement days, we can't get refinement points past 3. Which means the absolute most points of refinement we can get when we finish complexity is 9. We don't really know how much things cost, but that does also include buying back any flaws. In the example from Paper, quite a few shifts of success were wasted, and then quite a bit of refinement went towards fixing an added flaw.
I think the short answer is that, yeah, increasing chakra to have an AB of 5 would be great. We'd be able to get more refinement early on and/or finish products quicker if we had good enough TH. That's an extra extra requirement, so more of a stretch goal. But, if Minato Sealing is a combo of sealing and TH, and literally depends on our internal chakra, there's a nontrivial chance increasing chakra would benefit that as well. Plus, I wanna summon Cannai one day, dang it!
What about the chakra cave water?
It wouldn't be a terrible idea to test our a single sealing project with the water still in our system, so we know how much it helps. Maybe it lowers TN significantly, or gives bonus success, or makes our effective chakra higher for buying success or something. Regardless, knowing what the effect is would help us plan better.
BUT, if we can get a rune that does that, we can explore at our leisure. And TH takes times, which we don't really have, plus chakra, which we don't have enough of. The only decent argument I can think for trying TH while under the water's influence is that it may help us get a better idea about what the water's doing, in a way that makes it easier for us to make the seal by bringing in our TH to it. I don't know that that's worth it though.
How much of this is conjecture?
Most of it! I mean, the math parts are straightforward (AB 5 > AB 4, veterancy > no veterancy, etc), but how much things matter or help, I have no idea! I'll update this part of the post (and likely the TL;dr at the bottom) once we know more.
Recommended Veterancy Pathway
-Highest priority, but not the first target, should be Living Roots. It's a Maneuver, like ES. It has a similar effect of putting chakra into the earth and sensing what's going on. We're somewhat familiar with it, and have levels in it. Which means it's both more knowledgeable to us, and any improvements to it are upside anyway.
-Any of the regular level 1 techniques we grabbed. Trying to tweak a new technique means if we mess up getting practice on something we weren't going to run anyway, it's no real loss, and we can still use the base version. And if we make something entirely new out of it, we don't have to give up xp switching to the new and superior jutsu.
-MEW. We know it, we love it, we never leveled it above level 1. It's also a maneuver, which means it's also harder than an attack or defense, but more similar to ES. Increasing efficacy out of it would be useful as well.
-I genuinely don't know how BoC would work, since it's already an offspring of ES. It may negatively impact our ability to hack ES, so I am recommending against it until we get IC confirmation it wouldn't be an issue.
Other Techniques we may want to improve anyway
-PEA. It's a good strong toolkit technique we'd want to improve if we can, like decreasing costs for higher level usage, or making the activation a supplemental (even reactionary) in exchange for a decreased effect. Plus, tweaking to make a move faster may be good practice for trying to make ES faster. HOWEVER, we did promise the Pangolins not to modify any of their technique, so it would be a further violation of a deal that we had already broken off.
-BRI, or the other good level 1 skills we have. If we could improve bleeding river impalement or stone storm barrier by TH before leveling it, we'd know if it was worth it or not, and how likely we were to use it.
Suggested Earth TH Queue. Number of * indicate how important I think the step is.
1) *Try Tweaking a random level 1 skill (like stone bullet)
2) **Try modifying MEW
3) ***Try tweaking Living Roots
4) *Try tweaking BRI, or other good level 1 skill (like SSB or RAotT)
5) **Try tweaking PEA (thread consensus on breaking the agreement with the Pangolins notwithstanding)
6) ***TH Earth Shaping
Tl;dr:
More chakra would be helpful, but hopefully not vital. If we wanna modify ES, and we should, we should do some tweaking projects first. Living Roots is our best veterancy testbed. Trying on another good technique first to get a good sense of difficulty and a new shiny would be good.
I'll try to include my proposed TH stats for ES in this post when I have time, plus for a couple of the others. I'm also down if folks have suggested modifications to add them here.
Feedback/improvement/telling me why I'm wrong (politely) always welcome.
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- Location
- Liverpool
...6 months eh? That delayed explosive seal isn't going to cut it. Though an AoE of a km is pretty wild. Hiding that would be so much harder.
But. Imagine if we set that under Leaf. Just have a city moving faster than the outside world. Replacing ninja and recovering from operations faster than other villages could match. Too bad that's exactly the sort of thing that gets us focus-fired.
The original pangolin deal in which we got Earth Armor included our clan's agreement to not hack it, IIRC
Notes XP updated in light of this.
I saw you already added SC XP to the sheet so I won't bother asking for the additional 0.6 XP we could get
- Location
- United States
Uhhhhhhhhhh this is a little bigger than I was expecting! Like, to the point where setting this up in a remote area will leave that area looking noticeably different half a year later.
Clan? What clan?
The Gōketsu Clan. If we're not part of the Gōketsu anymore, than we're already in violation of the deal, I think; but Pantsa presumably doesn't object on the technicalities as long as it's the same actual group of people.
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Extra Long Fuse Explosive
Seal
An explosive seal with the timer set at infusion instead of activation time, is accurate only to the "week" mark on the time ladder, and can be set to explode "a year" later.
Does not need to be mobile or single element.
Seal
An explosive seal with the timer set at infusion instead of activation time, is accurate only to the "week" mark on the time ladder, and can be set to explode "a year" later.
Does not need to be mobile or single element.
>be me
>worried about leaving active runes behind that will serve as clues or research material for our enemies
>convince the hivemind to specify that runes should have a limited duration
>this makes time rune TNs higher
>hivemind decides to research 'unchained' time runes to maximize time dialation
>the time runes are unchained
>oh no
(To be clear this isn't an 'I told you so', because I don't intend to or think it would be productive to wag my finger at people, and because I think I can only claim partial credit for telling you so—I never anticipated that the TR area of effect would be so large, and if not for that they'd be much easier to conceal. I'm only pointing this out because I think it's hilarious and some of you may share my amusement.)
Given the trends, it seems that this is more or less inevitable if we wanted anything much better than a TR 125.
Fortunately, we can hide the rune 975m down underground and just use the tiny bit that peeks out over the surface to train in.
- Location
- Washington, USA
Maybe we should research a rune which bores a kilometer-deep hole in the ground, to save time and chakra on digging those manually. Or... hm. One Zone's worth of earth and rock, centered on the rune, disappears as if into a storage seal, then reappears at its previous location once the rune is no longer active nearby? Chakra metal and runic substrate unaffected of course. Call it the "Hiding Like A Weasel" rune. Empty space underneath means it, and any other runes in the affected zone, descend steadily into the ground at the usual runic-drag rate unless otherwise supported. Difference between earth and fire chakra hopefully means it'll come to a stop floating like a cork on the Mohorovičić discontinuity - Wikipedia rather than melting into anything catastrophic.
This is overkill. One cast of Tunnel Excavation can do 1Zone/Round for 20 rounds. That's 600m. 2 casts for 48 CP should get the job done.
- Location
- Washington, USA
That's a known jutsu which leaves an easily-located tunnel, though. If all the displaced rock is put back exactly where it was, by a completely novel technique, traces should be much harder for hunters to find.
Not really, first of all, it's a Pangolin jutsu, so it's not well known.
Second, just collapse the tunnel with explosives and smooth the ground with ES. Should be undetectable.
Researching a rune for this is a waste of time.
That does assume we can actually make a kilometre-deep tunnel straight down without any kind of support on the walls and not have it collapse on top of us, though, which I am not convinced by.
The locus of the jutsu should keep Hazou from being crushed. He can always tunnel back out once he infuses the rune. Being trapped is not a concern. Worse case scenario, we send an SC and it pops.
- Location
- UK
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Perhaps not, but it'll definitely count for progress.
He'd rather not, this early into the project. Unlike Sealing, he's not sure about his ability to appropriately judge progress and how far he is from failure.
Potentially, but presumably the medical domain would be about healing people, so the specific project choices are limited. Rare is the biosealing project that causes there to be more people alive than the counterfactual.
HDK (as in, this sounds like a can of worms so we'll let our poor future selves deal with it if it ever becomes relevant).
That's too much for a Declare, sorry.