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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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[] Action Plan: Not Actually a Fleshed Out Action Plan

I strongly dislike asking if we can invite Ami - I just can't see Itachi going for it, and it risks irritating him. If joining up with the Akatskui is possible, I'd also like to demand the concession that if our help proves integral to resurrecting Pain, we make him swear not to commit any more world-altering rituals prior to resurrecting him (?and maybe resurrecting Jiraiya too). Otherwise, it hits most of what I'm after.

I would rather have independently won the Necromancy race like we were going for, but by demanding our research the Akatsuki have trumped us. Even if we can still win the race, the problem of seizing and holding the rift against Akatsuki support is insurmountable - we can probably move the rift, but they'll know it was us and nuke Leaf. Either way that places us in a conflict with the Akatsuki that we can't possible win. And even if we pull out a miracle and do win, that just means we've destroyed the only thing preventing all the other nations from taking us out.

Remaining in Leaf and accepting losing the Necromancy race dooms us to mediocrity - there's no doubt we'll end up objectively damn strong with FOOSH, but we'll never be a global player.

From a narrative point of view, I think joining Akatsuki will be much more interesting that sticking around Leaf. I'm not willing to blow up all of our relationships and investment into Leaf to achieve this, but if we can somehow thread this needle (which this plan explores) I'm down with that.
 
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Epicrandom said:
[X] Action Plan: Not Actually a Fleshed Out Action Plan

I strongly dislike asking if we can invite Ami - I just can't see Itachi going for it, and it risks irritating him. If joining up with the Akatskui is possible, I'd also like to demand the concession that if our help proves integral to resurrecting Pain, we make him swear not to commit any more world-altering rituals prior to resurrecting him (?and maybe resurrecting Jiraiya too). Otherwise, it hits most of what I'm after.
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I'm not a huge fan of the Ami part of the plan either, but I consider it unlikely that we have enough perceived value in Itachi's eyes to be able to be able to persuade him on our own unless we reveal Lithosealing. What would your opinion on disclosing it as the conversation opener be? As I see It, it would both give us a much stronger position to negotiate from, build good will (its a massive boon for Rift research) and force Itachi to drastically reconsider his low-ish assessment of our Sealing skill all in one go. Further, if we end up cooperating with Akatsuki then we would not be able to level Lithosealing without them becoming aware of it, and having a shiny like that only not to use it would be a huge waste, so sharing it further down the line would have been a foregone conclusion anyway, and doing so now would be very convincing.

Of course if we reveal it and then fail to join, that would be giving it away for free, but I would find that unlikely? The issue is dramatically opposed plans are vying over every vote right now, so it would be nice to know everyone's opinion on it.
 
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Buggy said:
No one except you mentioned any preference or opinion on it.
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I want to include lithosealing. I don't care too much about the implementation at this stage which is why I didn't respond. Your proposal was also vague so depending on how you implement it I would slightly more or less like it. Ex: I think we should firmly establish our credentials, lithosealing and bloodline and oro peer, before asking inviting Ami. But regardless of the details the main thing I care about is we share lithosealing.
 
This vote is so tight, and I don't remember seeing a situation with so many plans, or so many votes, since I joined the hivemind. How exciting! I admit I will be somewhat bummed out if we don't join Akatsuki (just think of the in-universe bragging rights) but this is thrilling regardless!
Everyone has an opinion, everyone has a joke to make, and everyone's having fun, looks like.
This is... big. Big and scary, and either option could lead to glory or disaster. Let's see which one prevails?
If my two cents matter to someone waiting to cast their vote: Orochimaru said ambition and cowardice do not go hand in hand. The counterpoint, of course, being that Orochimaru said ambition and cowardice do not go hand in hand. But it worked for him, and we're at least twice the munchkin he ever was
 
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Buggy said:
First, we go to Tsunade. Bluntly inform her that you will soon be able to bring back the dead.
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To clarify, are your proposals just ideas you just want to raise, or are you prepared to follow through in accordance with what you've written if Ami and Itachi say, "Yes, this'll work, let's go"?

Inferno Vulpix said:
Share everything except what's necromancy-related.
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Also to clarify, this refers specifically and exclusively to the contents of the conversation with Itachi?
 
Alright, you know what?

We need to slam dunk this. Itachi has to be convinced or this will all be pointless and we'll have given other valuable info away.. There wouldn't be a change to votes that anyone has confirmed. I'm putting Lithosealing in the plan and Jashin help us all.

Velorien said:
To clarify, are your proposals just ideas you just want to raise, or are you prepared to follow through in accordance with what you've written if Ami and Itachi say, "Yes, this'll work, let's go"?
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The former. Apologies, i thought it might be a little ambiguous. I'll clear it up along with the above change.
 
Buggy said:
Alright, you know what?

We need to slam dunk this. Itachi has to be convinced or this will all be pointless and we'll have given other valuable info away.. There wouldn't be a change to votes that anyone has confirmed. I'm putting Lithosealing in the plan and Jashin help us all.
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Yes! By the way, feel free to borrow the wording I used for it in the plan I posted, if you find any of it to be fitting. I assume the details will be tinkered out tomorrow regardless.
 
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Lysbeth Succubus said:
This is... big. Big and scary, and either option could lead to glory or disaster. Let's see which one prevails?
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I wonder what happens if its a tie of two dramatically opposed votes! Would it come down to a dice roll? Jashin should be biased towards joining Akatsuki and be on our side in that! Or would it be a new voting cycle where people can only vote between the two, given the severity of the decision?
 
I dunno if it's a good idea. But itachi said they might rescue akane to get a huge favor from hazou. We can say hazou would give him a favor, dunno what size, if he invites Ami. And that hazou predicts that Ami would also give itachi a favor for being invited

Edit: I think it is very important that Ami gets invited. But I'm uncertain on the best implementation to do so

Edit2: heck Ami might even give hazou a favor for being invited without even needing to be asked
 
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thought of something funny that we definitely should not do. We could invite Ami by telling her that hazou wants to marry her and she needs to come now

Crunbum said:
Weren't we steering away from transactional favors as far as Hazou and Ami are concerned and trying to have a friendly relationship rooted in trust? We might have her gratitude for this though, certainly.
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I actually disagree that in the general case going away from transactional favors is good for friendships. But for this specific relationship between hazou and Ami that does seem to be what we've been doing and it does seem to be a better option than transactions

Edit: well it seems more rooted in like than trust
 
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Epicrandom said:
I strongly dislike asking if we can invite Ami - I just can't see Itachi going for it, and it risks irritating him.
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Itachi said the politics of Hazo effectively joining Akatsuki without burning bridges in Leaf is infeasible - he doesn't seem to be opposed to the idea in principle, if it could work, and Ami is the best person in the world for making it work. She personally, on her own initiative, defected from Mist to Leaf without leaving the Mori clan, and somehow both kages involved were fine with it! That's reason enough to justify getting her involved, and she could at least theoretically work the political angles without needing to be read in on all the secret lore stuff. Once she's involved in the conversation, how much she already knows about necromancy (and whatever else) could come up naturally.
 
Velorien said:
Also to clarify, this refers specifically and exclusively to the contents of the conversation with Itachi?
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Yes indeed, and I've tweaked that line to be more clear:
Inferno Vulpix said:
[X] Action Plan: I Am Once Again Asking For Your Diplomatic Support
  • Regretfully decline. You're more needed for the Dragonwar.
    • If Itachi decides to kill you: calmly reassert your importance for the Dragonwar. You've already been crucial for stopping fast degradation (HOWS). Last resort: reveal lithosealing.
  • Immediate debriefing with Tsunade: Fully debrief the Itachi conversation except what's necromancy-related. Itachi apologized, attempted recruitment based on supposed ideological compatibility, you escaped by arguing Dragonwar needs.
    • Schedule another meeting a few hours later. You have ideas regarding why Akatsuki wanted dimensionalism.
    • Insist on needing time to prepare, to run some preliminary analyses. Otherwise it'll all sound incoherent.
      • If she orders us, skip to the second meeting.
  • Top-security meeting with Kei, Ami, Mari.
    • Brief them on everything that just happened, and also lithosealing.
    • Three options:
      1. Try to out-race them. May still be viable: if you can crack rift-moving, you can steal it and replace it with a different one. If done covertly, they may not even realize there's been foul play: just the universe being cruel.
        • ...but you're not sure you'll be fast enough anymore, and they could have the rift guarded.
      2. Try to kill them. Lithosealing should allow novel superweapons, and with sufficient intel on their movements Leaf's forces could in theory assassinate each Akatsuki member before any of them know to retaliate.
        • But the death of Akatsuki would likely spell the end of AMITY, even if we resurrected a bunch of Leaf S-Rankers in their stead.
      3. Let Akatsuki monopolise the rift. Unfortunately, they don't seem inclined to resurrect Jiraiya.
        • With sufficient political manoeuvring, could we make it in their interests to resurrect a Kage for each country?
    • However, options one and two require:
      1. You to recover faster. Requires Tsunade and/or Orochimaru's focused attention.
      2. Leaf's buy-in. Can't kill Akatsuki without Leaf's S-rankers, and likely can't covertly steal the rift either (they likely placed guards/spies there).
      3. Your focused attention over a multi-month period. It's nontrivial: you have many different projects on your plate, and Clan Head duties and random smaller disasters (Hagoromo, suspicions about your culpability) don't help.
        • Can you three handle that? Ensure over the next half-a-year minimum, you'd be solely focused on beating Akatsuki, with at most Dragonwar as distraction. Not to the extent of social isolation, that'd degrade your performance. But put the fires out so we never waste time pushing non-essential goals.
        • As part of that, Hazou could temporarily step down as Clan Head in favour of Noburi, even if it makes us look incredibly suspicious.
  • Meet Tsunade again. Optimize with Mari/Ami/Kei, take some of them along if that'd help.
    • Debrief her on the necromancy research, the implications of Akatsuki taking it, and lithosealing.
    • Outline your anti-Akatsuki options, and what you and Leaf would need to succeed.
    • If she's furious we haven't shared necromancy before: we weren't sure it'd even work, wanted a working prototype first.
    • If she insists we destroy the rift: Agree it's a sensible precaution, and you'll develop a last-resort seal if necessary... but plead with her to give us the chance to try.
(Non-binding suggestion: Skip the clan meeting, jump directly to the second Tsunade meeting.)


I very much like the structure and framing of this plan... but I dislike the deicide. I don't believe that AMITY can survive the death of Akatsuki, and I don't believe that Akatsuki will create a monstrous horrid dystopia if they get Pain back. I think, rather, that having Akatsuki alive is the best outcome for the world right now, because world peace is exactly what we need and if we destroy it here it's going to be all the harder to get it back (and it was already a perfect storm of maximally-seized opportunities the first go-around).

So I'm forking it, with the bulk of the changes being in the Kei/Ami/Mari meeting and the options we present. Instead of trying to drive killing Akatsuki as the ideal path forwards, I instead propose attempting to get Jiraiya back through diplomatic means. It seems very plausible to me, for instance, that Akatsuki could find themselves in a position where the best way to maintain the stability of AMITY in light of Pain's resurrection is to prove to its members that resurrection can bring value to them as well, by returning to each village one of their most beloved heroes. Killing Akatsuki is still left in as an option, along with continuing the necromancy race, but with my own assessment of the pros and cons instead.

Overall, this plan has us reject the Akatsuki offer and then work closely with Leaf, either to stop Akatsuki or to let them win in a way that gets Jiraiya resurrected. Not getting Jiraiya resurrected is not an option. That is the main goal of this plan and further edits will be in service of that goal wherever possible.
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Adhoc vote count started by RandomOTP on Oct 13, 2023 at 7:41 PM, finished with 415 posts and 50 votes.
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Status of the current voting cycle
 
Black King said:
@Buggy can we add back the Goketsu to the first option? I want them to demand Hazou and Mari/Kei/Noburi/Kagome.
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Kagome as a Sealmaster is reasonable considering the purpose but demanding the whole clan would be as good aa branding us all traitors.

Kei is a Nara, not a Goketsu, she will survive in Leaf.
Mari is a Near-Essie and a social spec and Leaf is weakened enough it cant afford to lose her.
Noburi is the only viable Gouketsu Clan Head if Hazou is disappeared.
 
[X] Action Plan: Not Actually a Fleshed Out Action Plan

Ultimately I just don't see a way forward that doesn't involve getting in some way involved with Akatsuki. I find it incredibly unlikely we've got a decent chance of both winning the necro race and getting access to the rift/opening another rift. Killing the Akatsuki is similarly difficult and would immediately invite backlash from the rest of the EM. So that leaves us more or less just focused on Dragonwar (which is still monumentally vital don't get me wrong) until we get the Pain interrupt. Straight up joining the Akatsuki and ghosting Leaf somehow is an *even worse* outcome in our eyes since it puts both the Human Path and Goketsu in monumental danger, which isn't something I'm willing to compromise on. Which leaves trying to convince Itachi of our worth, while the ink is drying for reparations for Kakuzu's death. Our lithosealing advantage is gonna be short lived anyways with Orochimaru just around the corner of figuring it out, and honestly I trust him less than any individual member of the Akatsuki
 
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I don't want to demand the whole clan. I think that would make the whole thing less likely to work. Haven't thought long enough to know how much I oppose it, so if people strongly want it I'll think more about it
 
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