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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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faflec said:
To be clear, you are advocating to explain that a) Hazou is insanely valuable for having discovered lithosealing; and b) Hazou has a bloodline that lets him memorize seals, even legendary ones. This is a major OPSEC breach. This is a minor point however, because if I were to join Akatsuki in full I would be advocating to give all this information and more to Itachi (though maybe not quite so immediately, even given the context). The rest, however...
  • You are voting to involve Ami, and bring up the idea of telling Itachi that Ami knows about Project Necromancy. Ignoring that Ami is not well-respected enough among Akatsuki to be able to join this level of conversation...I know that this isn't done unless "if necessary", but I'm going to say that Hazou probably doesn't know how necessary this is, and I definitely don't think it has been brought up that Itachi will likely kill Ami to keep the secret of Project Necromancy.
  • Your #1 (and #2 to an extent) dooes not solve the key concerns Itachi brought up in the most recent update: Tsunade will not give us up and would absolutely be expecting Akatsuki to do Dangerous Shit, which risks exposing Project Necromancy.
  • Your #2 and #3 reveal Project Necromancy to Tsunade and/or AMITY as a whole. Itachi is not going to go for that, at all. The entire point of hiding Hazou away and making everyone think he's dead is to keep Project Necromancy from getting leaked and Hidden Villages from stopping Nagato's resurrection.
  • You lack, lack, any sort of jumpoff route wherein Itachi decides to veto all of your ideas. Hazou has zero guidance in this situation, and zero course-correction if it seems Itachi is getting annoyed.
Buggy, I feel that you are grievously underestimating the situation and Itachi's concerns, and the plan reflects this (NB: it does not address these things to a satisfactory level). This, unfortunately, is a criticism of the core of your plan (to join Akatsuki without having to leave-leave Leaf), and is therefore unworkable from my perspective.
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I think the core of Buggy's plan is, actually, just "We have Important Reasons to stay in contact with the summon path in particular. Here they are. Surely we, as reasonable people, can come to some kind of compromise that results in me being able to do my job there, and with you?"
 
Cariyaga said:
I think the core of Buggy's plan is, actually, just "We have Important Reasons to stay in contact with the summon path in particular. Here they are. Surely we, as reasonable people, can come to some kind of compromise that results in me being able to do my job there, and with you?"
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Then I am very confused, because Itachi would go "why do you need to do your job (Dragonwar) with us and not in Leaf?"
 
Lysbeth Succubus said:
There was no time left to think. Itachi was about to leave, and Hazō's answer had to come, fast. He could not condense the absurd amount of thoughts he was considering, unless...

"Yo."

Itachi looked somewhat surprised.

"Yo?"

"Exactly."

"Gōketsu..."

"I mean nes."

The surprise quickly escalated into a fully nonplussed expression.

"Are you... mocking me, Gōketsu?"

"I want to and not to join. Yesno, right? No."

Hazō could see Itachi fail to understand that he had given his answer. But how did he manage to miss such a synthetic explanation? Hazō could not possibly have made it any more clear. He knew exactly what he meant: he wanted to join and stay. And this was developed rationally, in a dozen different sublists of varying inter-contrariness. His mind's eye read, clear as day, what he wanted to say and condemn, and do just as well as not do. This was crystal clear! Why did the serious face across from his wax so sour?

"I warn you, and will do so only once. I came here presently to conduct business, and amusing anecdotes about Orochimaru notwithstanding, I remain focused on the objectives I set. I asked you a simple question. Are you, Gōketsu, mocking me?"

"Of course not. Totally, you cagey loser. I'm better than Sasori, by the way. You need to let me take him on as an apprentice, so I'll learn from him. I'll go tell Tsunade. By the way, we're staying. But with you. I know how to make seals you wouldn't believe are possible, and with my eyes I can remember them all forever but shhhh, you mustn't tell Itachi that. I can t@L|< with with with the Out,, and see b+yond t e p£int that h}de/s re*liʈy. Can you kidnap me so it's not treason? I do that."

If Itachi wore a cross expression before, he had now transitioned to a practiced face of grim resignation. The young adult's face, already pale, now looked positively cadaveric as the blood drained from it.

"Oh Sage, another one... of course Hidan set his eyes on him. I must trust that this, too, is my lot..."

By the time he was finished mumbling, Hazō was violently seizing on the ground, like a man possessed.

By the time he had taken Hazō to Rain, he had stopped trying to speak to him. A genjutsu refresh every thirty minutes ensured his peace of mind.

By the time they had got there, he had resorted to an improvised gag, using a piece of cloth, to prevent any babbling.

-o-o-o-
​
"Itachi, this is exactly and also not at all what we agreed on! I said I'd give up and take over and help you and independently conduct the project! Will you help me also what are you doing here?"

-o-o-o-
​
"No, Hidan, but of course yes. It's all worth it in the end so I'll gladly do it but it's a principle of mine I refuse to break."

-o-o-o-
​
"Sasori, that won't work. Of course I wouldn't sabotage you like I just did!"

-o-o-o-
​
"Just between you and me, Deidara, if you place a seal in your clay so there is a localised storage space near that explosive, you can detonate it much closer to you but the explosion will be directional. Absolutely do not share this kind of information with Akatsuki."

-o-o-o-
​
"If you trust Tobi, Kisame, then that's fine. Like you say, you've had much more opportunity to test him than I have. But if that trust means you're not even going to check whether what I'm saying is right, and Tobi turns out to be a threat, then you're putting the entire Elemental Nations in danger. And you need to understand something. Uplift is precious to me, and I am willing to go pretty damn far to defend it."

-o-o-o-
​
"So I says to Jashin, I says-

"No, I don't want to even talk to that delusion of a god, you lunatic!

"Can you tell me more about him, though?"

-o-o-o-
​
"If we resurrect Kishigami, not that I plan to, but you know, it's totally possible and I will do it but it's not like I would try, will his paper arts be the same as yours, except they won't, because he's not coming back, but will they be the same anyway?"

-o-o-o-
​
"I know your black and white halves aren't the same person, you singular person I am unawares about. Do you have an evil plan? I won't get in your way. You won't get away with it!"

-o-o-o-
​
Dear Tsunade, or to whomsoever it may concern,

The clouds over Rain have settled enough for this expedition to be launched, as the seasons change.

Along with this missive, you will find one (?) Gōketsu Hazō, whom I abducted against, and also according, to his will(s) a few months ago. Please, please, PLEASE keep him aimed any way except towards us. Tobi is still unconsolable, Zetsu is undergoing daily crises of the self, and Deidara repeatedly exclaims he has unveiled the secrets of neo-cubism.

Yours sincerely,

Itachi Uchiha.​
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You know, statistics say it's only a couple of years before the next QM flees in a desperate attempt to preserve what remains of their sanity and we end up needing a replacement. We pay in amusing anecdotes, the tears of players, and the occasional vegetarian lunch.
 
faflec said:
  • You lack, lack, any sort of jumpoff route wherein Itachi decides to veto all of your ideas. Hazou has zero guidance in this situation, and zero course-correction if it seems Itachi is getting annoyed.
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Without commenting on the rest of the plan, this is generally a good point for planmakers to bear in mind. If you don't cover obvious failure modes, there's no telling what the Hazōpilot will decide to do, especially with maluses from injuries, the pressure of a critical decision, and expecting to be killed if he makes the wrong move. You may recall how the players were less than happy with his decision to try to lie to Shikamaru when the latter saw through his test and there were no contingencies in place.
 
Velorien said:
You know, statistics say it's only a couple of years before the next QM flees in a desperate attempt to preserve what remains of their sanity and we end up needing a replacement. We pay in amusing anecdotes, the tears of players, and the occasional vegetarian lunch.
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I must be blind because I'm not seeing Lysbeth's rightfully deserved 10 XP to Gryffindor anywhere and surely that cant be right!?
 
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Man, both these plans are pretty rough. Is it still to late to rally around "No, but Yes" ?
[X] Action Plan: No, but Yes
FaintlySorcerous said:
[X] Action Plan: No, but Yes
  • If Nagato is going to continue the work of AMITY and fix the world by gaining the non-coercive cooperation of the EN, we want him back and we want to help achieve this goal. Full stop.
    • That support is heavily conditioned on nonviolent, non-coercive behaviour. We're not willing to go missing to help the Akatsuki revive him for a variety of reasons. But an unbreakable AMITY interested in redistributing power to help civilians? Yes, we want that, very badly.
  • The situation as we see it:
    • Leaf has two of the world's best sealmasters. Tsunade will have us research the Rift, either to open or close it. The Akatsuki can't guarantee they can detect our research.
    • We don't know, but someone may only need to touch the Rift to open or permanently close it. Leaf can field Naruto, Tsunade, Orochimaru, and an army of Summons, so the Akatsuki can't guarantee they can keep Leaf out.
    • If the Akatsuki were confident they could crack the Rift before us we wouldn't be having this conversation. Sasori is not going to be able to easily replicate our results, even with notes.
    • Turning the Rift into the site of another bloody, world-destroying war is the last thing anyone needs and hopefully not something the Akatsuki want, either.
    • So: short of murdering us they can't guarantee Leaf won't close or open the Rift and even that wouldn't dissuade Orochimaru. We likely probably need each other to open it and neither side wants to fight.
    • With permission, dispatch messenger Dogs to fetch Ami and Tsunade. We need their involvement. 'Yes, Hazo is defecting' and 'no, Hazo is not defecting' cannot possibly be the only options. We're going to find a third way.
      • If we're not allowed, well, it was a nice run. Tell our family we loved them. We'll look for Pain in the Pure Lands.
      • If we're not allowed because this is a genjutsu, lay out the below (minus the starred section) and coordinate a meeting with Itachi to present your plan to Ami and Tsunade.
      • If Itachi isn't on board but we're also allowed to leave, then just say no.
  • Tsunade, Ami, and Itachi:
    • Brief Tsunade and Ami - the Dragons, the Rift, what Itachi's said, everything.
    • The Rift is going to open. Sasori will eventually crack it.
      • The question is whether AMITY states have any voice in its use.
    • Our proposal:
      • Make opening the Rift an AMITY project. Between Sasori, Orochimaru, Hazo, and whoever else knows enough to help, we can do this.
        • Anyone who doesn't like it can try to take on the Akatsuki, Leaf, and Mist.
      • Anyone revived must swear allegiance to AMITY - above their nation, above their personal interests, above everything. Pain included.
        • Not the Akatsuki, but AMITY, the council of the heads of nations for the purpose of ensuring peace.
      • Anyone who doesn't make this oath to the satisfaction of every member state isn't allowed back. Pain included.
      • Everyone here lost someone they dearly want back, can see where the world is heading and wants to turn it around, or both. This can accomplish both goals...but only if can work together.
        • Can we do that? How can we get to that point if we aren't there now?
    • If you need to sell Tsunade on this, Itachi, retract all demands except Kisame's - we need that for the Dragons and Great Seal.
      • Work with us. Make this happen. Do it the hard way.
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Velorien said:
any ninja skill
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GRUE: Don't you do it.

GRYFFINDOR HOUSE: Imma do it.

GRUE: Don't you dare.

GRYFFINDOR HOUSE: I'm gonna do it.

GRUE: Gryffindo-

GRYFFINDOR HOUSE: 1 POINT TO H̴̢̢̡̧͚͇͇̲̼̯̫̦̠̟̄̓͋̔̓̔̈̈́̀̈́̉͗̅̐̓͛̂̂̑͒͝͠Ȩ̸̦̲̩̲̹̾̽̂̎́̂̒͗͗̿N̵̡̡̨̨̛̛̥̮̹̞̰̪̤̤͉̳͓̜̼̮͇̳̳̯̣̻͌͊͑͛̅̉͒͑͂̎̆̇̃͋͗̀́̌̒͌́͒̕͘̕̕͠͝ͅG̸̨̗͈̯͉͙̳̬̲͍͉̺̞̝̯̰̲̭͒̄̿̒̾̽̾̉͐͋̾̔̓̉̉́̌͒̓̓̚͘̚͝ͅE̸̦̖͕̜͍̞͓̫̞̤͎̙͊̈̐͐́̈́͋̎̽̅͑̌̾̿͗̇͆̅̊̈́̿́̓̾̀̾́̕͠͝͝
 
Cariyaga said:
I'm going to be honest here.

This plan has very bad things that can result of it. Like -- You say at the end "Not getting Jiraiya resurrected is not an option" but in spite of considering the very real possibility that Tsunade demands the rift be destroyed, you have no considerations for what to do if she insists. Which is, I submit, at least 20% likely to happen.
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Tsunade's core character trait is her being tired of watching people die, she probably wants Jiraiya back as much as anyone, and she's an essie not particularly concerned with prioritizing what is practical compared to doing whatever she wants. I think the appeal to emotion of "let us at least try to bring the dead back before we close that possibility indefinitely" is just going to work. And "have a last-resort seal for closing the rift in the back pocket" should assuage whatever tiny voices of pragmatism she'll hear.
And, setting aside the relatively large possibility space in which that happens directly contradicting your plan's stated goals -- it will also result in the death of Leaf as a polity.

Tsunade is not a politician. She is not trained in it, and has done everything possible in her life to avoid political considerations at all like "if we are known to be pursuing necromancy separate of Akatsuki it is possible they will see this as reason to take Leaf out entirely".
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Those particulars of "how we win against the Akatsuki" is tactics, not overarching strategy, and Tsunade knows how to delegate that. It's the primary reason she'd been chosen:
Paperclipped said:
"Is Tsunade even a good choice?" Lady Amori asked. "She has never wanted to lead before, nor has she shown any proclivity towards the effective management of a village. Even her hospitals are run by others so that she has more time to heal. Why would she want to be Hokage? Naruto has substantially more experience in a leadership position, and is far better equipped to coordinate the entire village with his shadow clones."

"This is exactly why she would be a good leader," Shikamaru said. "She recognizes what she is not good at, and is willing to delegate such things to others. Naruto can lead the defense better than anyone else in Leaf, but he will not command the same respect and fear from Akatsuki as Tsunade would, no offense intended. Moreover, while the issue of Leaf's long-term eighth Hokage is a question, there is no doubt that Tsunade would reject the role. Therefore, having her as Hokage would ensure that we do not end up in a situation where, if we find peace at the end of this affair, we are not laden with a Hokage chosen in desperate wartime that refuses to relinquish power when necessary. She cuts through all power struggles and politicking, she can be the strong leader we need, and she will do what is best for Leaf in stepping down once our time of crisis is over. This is my expectation, and this is why Clan Nara have voted for the interim Hokage accordingly."
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Crunbum said:
Adding to all these points - Tsunade is likely an interim Hokage only and Naruto will likely replace her shortly. Discussing any long term Leaf policy with her is likely to be quite pointless.
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Tsunade is expected to step down, but she may just arbitrarily choose not to, to stay around for as long as she likes. No-one would be able to prevent that except her. And the micro-management of the necromancy project might be one thing that'd make her stay on for longer. And even if she does step down, she'd possess ridiculous influence over the next Kage; they'd do what she wants.

I don't think any of those anti-Tsunade concerns are serious ones.
 
Cariyaga said:
I think the core of Buggy's plan is, actually, just "We have Important Reasons to stay in contact with the summon path in particular. Here they are. Surely we, as reasonable people, can come to some kind of compromise that results in me being able to do my job there, and with you?"
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This. We need to work this out with Akatsuki. Staying in Leaf will not end well, because Leaf hates Akatsuki and there is serious risk that we are ordered to perform lose states like close the rift or abandon necromancy. Even if we aren't, its likely that we get none of our resurrection candidates brought back, and Akatsuki becomes unbeatable with their advantage.

Going with Akatsuki will not go well, because it requires we ignore a x-risk.

Every plan that is even somewhat viable from that point on basically begins with "drop everything, seal research 24/7, fix the dragons and then kill Akatsuki", which is both astronomically difficult and kills one of the biggest forces for peace still around.

This is a very narrow thread of fate we are trying to thread here.


faflec said:
  • You are voting to involve Ami, and bring up the idea of telling Itachi that Ami knows about Project Necromancy. Ignoring that Ami is not well-respected enough among Akatsuki to be able to join this level of conversation...I know that this isn't done unless "if necessary", but I'm going to say that Hazou probably doesn't know how necessary this is, and I definitely don't think it has been brought up that Itachi will likely kill Ami to keep the secret of Project Necromancy.
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I could remove the specific 'mention she knows Necromancy' part. I think, in part, this is diffused by our argument that Leaf also knows about necromancy, because we told our entire family, Shikamaru (who may well have informed the Hokage the moment we left), the former Hokage, the future Hokage, and Ami. I don't see how he could possibly keep this under wraps without nuking Leaf.

If you think it will help the problem, I could put the 'inform Itachi that Leaf will know' thing upfront. Make it clear that Ami is not a weak link to silence, and that we need to address the fact that we, Hazo and Akatsuki, no longer has OPSEC on the generalities of Necromancy. In addition to removing a specific mention that Amy knows about Necromancy.

faflec said:
  • Your #1 (and #2 to an extent) dooes not solve the key concerns Itachi brought up in the most recent update: Tsunade will not give us up and would absolutely be expecting Akatsuki to do Dangerous Shit, which risks exposing Project Necromancy.
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Frankly, Project Necromancy is exposed already. What do they not know? Our family knows everything and may blab if we leave. We gave a full report to the Tower about the initial mission, including our opinions on what the rift was. We told Naruto about the seance. We told the Toad summons about our plans to revive Jiraiya and a lot of details about the situation. We informed one of the smarted people in Leaf, Shikamaru, head of the Nara, about this.

In what world, does Leaf require more than 24 hours to come to the conclusion that Akatsuki believes they can revive the dead and just stole a bunch of notes from a Leaf Sealsmaster who was trying to do the same thing?

faflec said:
  • Your #2 and #3 reveal Project Necromancy to Tsunade and/or AMITY as a whole. Itachi is not going to go for that, at all. The entire point of hiding Hazou away and making everyone think he's dead is to keep Project Necromancy from getting leaked and Hidden Villages from stopping Nagato's resurrection.
  • You lack, lack, any sort of jumpoff route wherein Itachi decides to veto all of your ideas. Hazou has zero guidance in this situation, and zero course-correction if it seems Itachi is getting annoyed.
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The first point here, see the above paragraph.
The second point, that is a fair point. I will try to address the situation, but I'm not sure what to do at that point either.

faflec said:
Buggy, I feel that you are grievously underestimating the situation and Itachi's concerns, and the plan reflects this (NB: it does not address these things to a satisfactory level). This, unfortunately, is a criticism of the core of your plan (to join Akatsuki without having to leave-leave Leaf), and is therefore unworkable from my perspective.
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That is not unfair, and that is why I am trying to address these problems. But this is a extremely difficult situation. I have been tempted several times to simply vote for 'no' and hope we can thread the needle over there instead, but that is also risky in other ways.
 
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I don't really like either plan, but I must admit that I want a quest where we join the Akatsuki over one where we keep crawling in the slightly bigger crab bucket that is Leaf politics. If that results in our death, so be it. It was a fun run while it lasted. If Hazou actually does die or receive a fate worse than death from this, I'll probably stop participating (and maybe even reading). But, well,

Look, if you had one shot or one opportunity
To seize everything you ever wanted in one moment
Would you capture it or just let it slip?

[X] Action Plan: Not Actually a Fleshed Out Action Plan
 
CaramilkThief said:
I don't really like either plan, but I must admit that I want a quest where we join the Akatsuki over one where we keep crawling in the slightly bigger crab bucket that is Leaf politics. If that results in our death, so be it. It was a fun run while it lasted. If Hazou actually does die or receive a fate worse than death from this, I'll probably stop participating (and maybe even reading). But, well,

Look, if you had one shot or one opportunity
To seize everything you ever wanted in one moment
Would you capture it or just let it slip?

[X] Action Plan: Not Actually a Fleshed Out Action Plan
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I legit don't want to play for Akatsuki.
 
Current tally:
Adhoc vote count started by Crunbum on Oct 13, 2023 at 9:03 PM, finished with 461 posts and 52 votes.
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Buggy said:
I could remove the specific 'mention she knows Necromancy' part. I think, in part, this is diffused by our argument that Leaf also knows about necromancy, because we told our entire family, Shikamaru (who may well have informed the Hokage the moment we left), the former Hokage, the future Hokage, and Ami. I don't see how he could possibly keep this under wraps without nuking Leaf.

If you think it will help the problem, I could put the 'inform Itachi that Leaf will know' thing upfront. Make it clear that Ami is not a weak link to silence, and that we need to address the fact that we, Hazo and Akatsuki, no longer has OPSEC on the generalities of Necromancy. In addition to removing a specific mention that Amy knows about Necromancy.
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Itachi has already extorted Leaf under the threat of nuking Leaf, over Kakuzu's death. You think he won't do it to keep his dream of resurrecting Nagato alive? For even the slightest chance that it'll result in his failure, when it already resulted in* Nagato's failure?
Buggy said:
Frankly, Project Necromancy is exposed already. What do they not know? Our family knows everything and may blab if we leave. We gave a full report to the Tower, including our opinions on what the rift was. We told Naruto about the seance. We told the Toad summons about our plans to revive Jiraiya and a lot of details about the situation. We informed one of the smarted people in Leaf, Shikamaru, head of the Nara, about this.

In what world, does Leaf require more than 24 hours to come to the conclusion that Akatsuki believes they can revive the dead and just stole a bunch of notes from a Leaf Sealsmaster who was trying to do the same thing?
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The world where Leaf stops existing within those 24 hours. That our family knows everything is a reason for Itachi to kill them, not for Itachi to cave in. (The Toads, Itachi can plan long-term since they have far less ability to influence the Human Path and less ability to find out that Leaf got accidentally'd).

Please keep in mind that for all Itachi's apparent pleasentness at this time, he is still an S-ranker who got his fame by murdering nearly every family member who was a ninja.
Buggy said:
The second point, that is a fair point. I will try to address the situation, but I'm not sure what to do at that point either.
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Agree to decline and walk away. Decide to join Akatsuki anyway, and pray that Leaf doesn't get Hazou'd. Let Hazou decide IC. Write for a decision to be made, don't just kick it to the next update it's already happened when the winning plan called to decline if our suggestion failed.

(also, please write for Hazou to remain calm and explain his plans IFF Hazoupilot doesn't override)
 
CaramilkThief said:
I don't really like either plan, but I must admit that I want a quest where we join the Akatsuki over one where we keep crawling in the slightly bigger crab bucket that is Leaf politics. If that results in our death, so be it. It was a fun run while it lasted. If Hazou actually does die or receive a fate worse than death from this, I'll probably stop participating (and maybe even reading). But, well,

Look, if you had one shot or one opportunity
To seize everything you ever wanted in one moment
Would you capture it or just let it slip?
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I respect the hustle.
 
Adhoc vote count started by RandomOTP on Oct 13, 2023 at 9:03 PM, finished with 461 posts and 52 votes.
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Status of current voting cycle.

I will also be trading votes for people to exclusively vote for IV's plan. The rules are as follows:
  • You vote exclusively for IV's plan, and unvote for Buggy's
  • You earn two of my votes after this voting cycle is over
  • These votes are good for a duration of two IRL years, even if I leave the quest between now and then.
  • I have Right of Refusal once for each of the votes, but commit to only invoking this due to critical failure with regard to Hazou's Found Family (ex: Hazou yelling at Kei, Calling Noburi a worthless barrel boy, sneering at Mari and calling her a slut, telling Yuno her worth us inherently tied to her ability to serve as a meatshield, and other such needless cruelties)


If you need to copy/paste...
[X] Action Plan: I Am Once Again Asking For Your Diplomatic Support
 
Ah, and the vote trading attempts begin... soon everyone will be promising multiple vote markers to get this one vote through. Its kinda.. sad. Personally, I'm going to vote according to my preferences and conscience. I would hate for this vital decision to get fixed by vote-trading and diplomacy realpolitiks.

Plus, for anyone looking to do that, the impact of this one plan is greater than practically any other is likely to be, so it would be a bad trade.
 
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I'll trade votes for anyone willing to vote for [X] Action Plan: Not Actually a Fleshed Out Action Plan
 
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