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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Crunbum said:
33 Alertness (Mid Genin)
37 Athletics (High Genin)
35 Physique (High Genin)
40 Taijutsu (Low Chuunin)
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Bruh, use the effective stats. That's what gets rolled. Physique isn't even a combat stat. Basic mistakes like this are why your arguments are hard to take seriously.

33 Alertness (Mid Genin)
40 Athletics (Low Chunin)
43 Taijutsu (Low Chunin)

The plan has Hazou debuffing the Pangolin and then using a Goo Bomb, which rolls 60 vs Ath for an "I win" button.

60 Goo Bomb (Low jounin)

That's why we think we have a chance at winning.
 
Shrooms said:
Itachi has a godlike genjutsu, Orochimaru has a very powerful Intimidation stat, Resolve resists both
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Only some genjutsu target resolve tho, others target alertness instead.

Even then, a resolve of 70 would not be enough to protect us from either Oro's intimidation nor Itachi Resolve targeting Genjutsu.

We'd probably need Hazou's resolve to be raised to 89 as our level 80 capstone before he'll be able to shrug off their intimidation/Genjutsu
 
Edits made to accomodate feedback. We are still fighting if we have to.
faflec said:
Kinda-sorta fork of Shrooms' plan.

[x] [Conclave] Malicious Indifference
Word Count: ???
  • General approach
    • Move quickly; we need to act before Confute leaves.
      • Still try to communicate plan with Kei/Noburi in handsign as we act. We trust them to pick up the idea and speak up .
    • Don't leave room for interjections. We want to maintain control of the narrative.
    • Where appropriate, if trio signs consensus agreement, have the trio try to rope the crowd into supporting their claims.
  • Confrontation:
    • Go over to the fallen Bonds, and examine them loudly.
      • No cuts or damage on them. They were tied loosely enough to enable an escape.
      • We cannot tell which is worse: the idea that the Bonds were tied loosely due to incompetence, or malice. Or perhaps malicious indifference?
        • Speculate on how many Condors have been harmed because the Pangolins refuse to properly do their self-appointed duty.
        • Regardless, this execution is a clear cover-up.
    • It is clear that the Pangolins here are not taking their own duties seriously in this regard.
      • Insist on a separate authority to handle oversight over the Condors since Pankratos clearly is not doing so properly.
      • Kei is the Pangolin Summoner, and is an authority under only Pantsaa in the Seventh Path.
      • Clearly she should handle this duty.
    • If things devolve, one of us claims mortal insult and demands a duel to win control over the Condors here.
      • Flaunt seals, win quickly and efficiently.
      • Don't use MARS, but manually activate a banshee, then throw goo bombs. Manually activate additional debuffs as needed.
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Sir Stompy said:
Bruh, use the effective stats. That's what gets rolled. Physique isn't even a combat stat. Basic mistakes like this are why your arguments are hard to take seriously.

33 Alertness (Mid Genin)
40 Athletics (Low Chunin)
43 Taijutsu (Low Chunin)

The plan has Hazou debuffing the Pangolin and then using a Goo Bomb, which rolls 60 vs Ath for an "I win" button.

60 Goo Bomb (Low jounin)

That's why we think we have a chance at winning.
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Physique absolutely IS a combat stat, it determines Stress Track Size. Most chuunin are gonna have 40, which adds +1, meaning they can take 33% more Stress and survive, which is invaluable. Its also often rolled for fighting styles and some secondary checks.

Use effective stats? Riiight, like other ninja won't have boosts... and like they don't cost actions in an action economy driven combat system...
No, the right way is clearly to use base levels, because other ninja absolutely will have shinies of their own. And Hazou is a mid to high genin in three most important direct combat stats and the lowest of low chuunin in his signature direct combat stat. Despite having SJ levels of XP.

Don't like it? Vote for different training plans next time. The odds are that one day Hazou will die due to having laughable combat prowess, its just a matter of if it happens before or after we crack the afterlife, or if we simply get extraordinarily lucky. The MFD combat system is deadly, but its players insist on longterm training plans that heavily neglect short and medium term combat prowess, to the point where even characters that were commonly going on missions like Akane wasted tons of experience on XP intensive and benefit sparse things like fire flavour. Plus buffs like Flame Aura are a net negative to use due to Action Economy and should only be cast if there is time to do so before a fight - so focusing on them is bad, and its almost poetic that jutsu likely ended up killing her, in what might well have been a revenge fight for the murder of the Tsuchikage's Consort who... also died because he cast buffs round 1.
 
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cog-nito said:
Even then, a resolve of 70 would not be enough to protect us from either Oro's intimidation nor Itachi Resolve targeting Genjutsu
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You're wrong about this IMO

Paperclipped said:
The target's innate resistance tries to contest the forceful subversion of their mind.

The user must succeed a Genjutsu vs (Resolve + ⅓ Alertness) to put the target under the Mind Control
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Assuming 50 Alt and 70 Resolve that would be Itachi rolling his capstone (probably an 80) vs. 70 Resolve + 17 (1/3 Alt) = 87. Hazou would have a very good chance of winning that roll.
 
Crunbum said:
Physique absolutely IS a combat stat, it determines Stress Track Size. Most chuunin are gonna have 40, which adds +1, meaning they can take 33% more Stress and survive, which is invaluable. Its also often rolled for fighting styles and some secondary checks.

Use effective stats? Riiight, like other ninja won't have boosts...
No, the right way is clearly to use base levels, because other ninja absolutely will have shinies of their own. And Hazou is a mid to high genin in three most important direct combat stats and the lowest of low chuunin in his signature direct combat stat. Despite having SJ levels of XP.

Don't like it? Vote for different training plans next time.
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Imma try to be nice about this. But I can't tell where the motivated reasoning and/or copium begins and ends here.

Physique is not a combat stat. Having +1 to the Physcial stress track is basically a nothing burger. It matters only in the tiny fraction of cases where a diff of 1-3 would start the Consequence snowball. An increase of 33% sounds big, but it doesn't really matter. Not when 1-3 levels of Ath will do the same exact thing. Except better, since Ath can get rolled multiple times when accumulating stress.

Hazou doesn't know any fighting styles that use Physique. If he did, it might be a combat stat for him. Same way Water Whip isn't a combat skill for him.

Hazou's Iron Nerve boosts his base skills and is on all the time with no action required to start up. It also doesn't count towards his buff limit. That means we can treat the bonus it gives as his base skill. Just like you counted SSA as being part of his Sealing stat. Bruh.

Those shinies you speak of are buff jutsu (for Pangolins at least, no seals here) which require actions to use, and are able to be disrupted. Does it make sense to count Hozuki's Mantle as part of Noburi's base stats? No. Does it make sense to count his enhanced CR from his bloodline as part of his base stats? Duh.
 
Crunbum said:
Physique absolutely IS a combat stat, it determines Stress Track Size. Most chuunin are gonna have 40, which adds +1, meaning they can take 33% more Stress and survive, which is invaluable. Its also often rolled for fighting styles and some secondary checks.

Use effective stats? Riiight, like other ninja won't have boosts... and like they don't cost actions in an action economy driven combat system...
No, the right way is clearly to use base levels, because other ninja absolutely will have shinies of their own. And Hazou is a mid to high genin in three most important direct combat stats and the lowest of low chuunin in his signature direct combat stat. Despite having SJ levels of XP.

Don't like it? Vote for different training plans next time. The odds are that one day Hazou will die due to having laughable combat prowess, its just a matter of if it happens before or after we crack the afterlife, or if we simply get extraordinarily lucky. The MFD combat system is deadly, but its players insist on longterm training plans that heavily neglect short and medium term combat prowess, to the point where even characters that were commonly going on missions like Akane wasted tons of experience on XP intensive and benefit sparse things like fire flavour. Plus buffs like Flame Aura are a net negative to use due to Action Economy and should only be cast if there is time to do so before a fight - so focusing on them is bad, and its almost poetic that jutsu likely ended up killing her, in what might well have been a revenge fight for the murder of the Tsuchikage's Consort who... also died because he cast buffs round 1.
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Most chunin are not going to have 40+ Physique. I would expect physique to be at best a tertiary skill for combat chunin and lower for all others.
A standard combat chunin pyramid looks something like

50: Primary Combat Stat (RW, Taijutsu, ect)
40's: Alertness, Athletics
30's: CR, Physique, Resolve
20's Substitution, buff jutsu, Stealth, ect

A jutsu, social, or research spec chunin would have it in the 20's or lower. Hazo has very high physique for his build and experience.
 
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cog-nito said:
Only some genjutsu target resolve tho, others target alertness instead.
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Tsukiyomi lockdown feels more akin to a resolve targeting genjutsu imo but it's true we don't know for sure

Sir Stompy said:
The plan has Hazou debuffing the Pangolin and then using a Goo Bomb, which rolls 60 vs Ath for an "I win" button.

60 Goo Bomb (Low jounin)
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I used a -5 for banshees on the Jonin Sim and I think it was noted to be slightly lower than what the actual debuff would be. And Pangolins don't have Substitution for whatever reason. So they'd need to have raw 65+ Athletics or some other Reflexive dodge buff just for the first attack. As Hazou activates more debuffs that goes up.

Also it occurs to me we should probably activate banshee slayers while walking to the duel or something.
 
Sir Stompy said:
Imma try to be nice about this. But I can't tell where the motivated reasoning and/or copium begins and ends here.

Physique is not a combat stat. Having +1 to the Physcial stress track is basically a nothing burger. It matters only in the tiny fraction of cases where a diff of 1-3 would start the Consequence snowball. An increase of 33% sounds big, but it doesn't really matter. Not when 1-3 levels of Ath will do the same exact thing. Except better, since Ath can get rolled multiple times when accumulating stress.
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It is decisively not a nothing burger. +1 Stress Track Size is massive. Consequences inflict roll penalties, so someone with Physique 40 survives a lot longer and is often able to roll at full effectiveness where someone physically more fragile would already have failed -> which means they inflict more consequences themselves and lower enemy stats in turn.

Let us graph an example fight, where both combatants inflict 4 Stress every round (Rolling 10-12 points over the enemy defense), before any penalties from Consequences change their rolls. We will have two identical ninja fight, one with a Stress Track Size of 4 (A) and the other of 3 (B). We will assume the skills they are rolling with have an AB of 6 (level 50-59). So basically, two solid chuunin fight.

Variant 1 : A starts first (A wins without taking any Consequences)
Round 1 :
A : Inflicts 4 Stress, soaked with a Mild (-2), B now at 2/3 Stress and rolls at -6 from normal, so inflicts 2 less stress and takes 2 more per round.
B : Inflicts 2 Stress

Round 2 :
A : Inflicts 6 Stress, for a total of 9/3 Stress (6 over), soaked with a Medium (-3) and Severe (-4). B now at 2/3 Stress and rolls -18 from normal, so inflicts no Stress and takes 6 more per round.
B : Inflicts 0 Stress (possibly die if the enemy's defence was opposed like using Melee Weapons or Taijutsu to defend in melee)

Round 3 :
A : Inflicts 10 Stress, massively overkilling B (12/3). Combat ends.

Variant 2 : B starts first (A wins narrowly, taking a Mild, Medium and Severe and having 3 leftover Stress to take till death)
Round 1 :
B : Inflicts 4 Stress, A now at 4/4 Stress.
A : Inflicts 4 Stress, soaked with a Mild (-2), B now at 2/3 Stress and rolls at -6 from normal, so inflicts 2 less stress and takes 2 more per round.

Round 2 :
B : Inflicts 2 Stress, A now at 6/4 Stress, soaked with a Mild (-2), i.e 4/4 Stress and rolls at -6 from normal for +/- 2 Stress damage.
A : Inflicts 4 Stress (4 + 2 - 2), B now at 6/3 Stress, soaked with a Medium (-3), i.e 3/3 Stress and rolls at -12 from normal for +/-4 Stress damage.

Round 3 :
B : Inflicts 2 Stress (4 - 4 + 2), A now at 6/4 Stress, soaked with a Medium (-3), i.e 3/4 Stress and rolls at -12 from normal for +/- 4 Stress damage.
A : Inflicts 4 Stress (4 - 4 + 4), B now at 7/3 Stress, soaked with a Severe (-4), i.e 3/3 Stress and rolls at -18 from normal for +/- 6 Stress damage.

Round 4 :
B : Inflicts 2 Stress (4 - 6 + 4), A now at 5/4 Stress, soaked with a Severe (-4), i.e 1/4 Stress and rolls at -18 from normal for +/- 6 Stress damage.
A : Inflicts 4 Stress (4 - 6 + 6), B now at 7/3 Stress and dies. Combat ends.

I would not call B (40 Physique) massacring A (39 Physique) without Consequences if they start first and still winning with 10 / 13 Stress used up if they start second a "nothing burger" of an advantage. Furthermore, Physique 60 offers an extra Mild, which is about three times the advantage over Physique 40, as that is over 39, and then 80 is +1 Stress Track Size AND an extra Mild, which is even better. Physique is a good combat stat, and it is also a snowballing one that gets better as you go.

Oh, and did I mention you can Tag the Consequences you inflicted for extra bonuses, so that its even more lopsided than the above examples whenever appropriate to do so?

Also, hopefully the above combat samples illustrate just why using any buff whatsoever on round 1 is a terrible, terrible idea that will likely end in your death in any even matchup, unless the buff is defensive in nature and maybe even then, let alone if its Flame Aura that does not make you any tougher and can also inflict self-harm if it fails. You should buff before combat, not during it, unless you have a marked action economy advantage in it and can thus reasonably expect not to be attacked on your buffing round.
 
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Crunbum said:
It is decisively not a nothing burger. +1 Stress Track Size is massive. Consequences inflict roll penalties, so someone with Physique 40 survives a lot longer and is often able to roll at full effectiveness where someone physically more fragile would already have failed -> which means they inflict more consequences themselves and lower enemy stats in turn.

Let us graph an example fight, where both combatants inflict 4 Stress every round (Rolling 10-12 points over the enemy defense), before any penalties from Consequences change their rolls. We will have two identical ninja fight, one with a Stress Track Size of 4 (A) and the other of 3 (B). We will assume the skills they are rolling with have an AB of 6 (level 50-59).
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It matters only in the tiny fraction of cases where a diff of 1-3 would start the Consequence snowball
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Note that you highlighted the exact carve out that he already conceded, while ignoring the rest of his argument. The times when exactly one stress matters is rare.

It's just not usually a very efficient use of EXP. If ninja B had left physique at 20 and invested half that exp in actual combat stats he would have won handily. He is not arguing that physique does literally nothing.
 
Kylinger said:
Note that you highlighted the exact carve out that he already conceded, while ignoring the rest of his argument. The times when exactly one stress matters is rare.

It's just not usually a very efficient use of EXP. If ninja B had left physique at 20 and invested half that exp in actual combat stats he would have won handily.
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If I picked a different amount of Stress then the advantage would still be there, just possibly less distinct depending on the number as it might then occur over multiple attacks (or on a higher roll of one that would have inflicted multiple Consequences), and hence I opted to demonstrate the scenario that would best demonstrate the gap.

But its not a rare occurence for it to swing by that much at all. Taking 1 Consequence spans a range of 12 - 18 points at Physique 39 and 15 - 21 points at Physique 40. This is a difference of 3 in a range 6 wide, so actually that occurs roughly 50% of the time for Mild Consequence swings, 33% of the time for Medium Consequence swings and 25% of the time for Severe Consequence swings (except more because compounding effects).

Normally you have your main combat stat maxed out for pyramid reasons, not XP reasons, and ways to get more points are sparse. So to raise your main combat stat by 10 points might require as much as a 50% increase in total XP due to needing to prop the pyramid up to support it. Physique is almost never a capstone and would thus not be bound to that kind of expense, so it absolutely can be an efficient combat stat.

For example, a character with 20k XP can have a 79 capstone, but they will need to reach 30k XP or so to get an 89 capstone, a cost of 10k XP, or even more if their pyramid is wide instead of being extremely thin and focused. So each point is costing you 1k XP here. Or you could raise Physique from 50 to 60 for 555 XP, which would give you an extra Mild Consequence, i.e 6 damage point capacity, which is comparable to having +3 in your stat, which would have cost 3k XP or 5.5 times as much, to acquire. And it effectively applies to all stats, not just that one.
 
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Staff Notice - Rule 3: Play the ball, not the man
Shrooms said:
Also it occurs to me we should probably activate banshee slayers while walking to the duel or something
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Are Banshees the right tool to be using here? Also, you should specify Earbuster(150 dB) or Banshee Fucker(175dB). I assume we don't want to deafen the crowd. It's very unpleasant to be near.
Kylinger said:
Note that you highlighted the exact carve out that he already conceded, while ignoring the rest of his argument. The times when exactly one stress matters is rare
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I really shouldn't engage with this argument anymore. So I shall simply note that this is why nobody listens to him.
 
Sigh... and this kind of thinking is why Akane died. You think its an edge case scenario, whereas it is not, but just because I replied in any way shape or form, you assume that I'm ignoring the point you raised, while I am merely adressing it and pointing out at length that its foundations are false and why, but you will not read that anyway lol, because wall of text.

Well, surprise for you - sometimes walls of text are what it takes to highlight the importance of something, but you are clearly not interested in understanding the mechanical impact of Physique on combat so I'll stop there.
 
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Sir Stompy said:
Are Banshees the right tool to be using here? Also, you should specify Earbuster(150 dB) or Banshee Fucker(175dB). I assume we don't want to deafen the crowd. It's very unpleasant to be near.
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I just went with it bc it's the biggest debuff. Pang peppers are ~5 and flash likely less than 5 based on what Paper said for that writeup I did. Good point on specifying which kind to use though. @faflec you may also want to specify Earbusters/activating Banshee slayers before the fight
 
faflec said:
Might as well post this in case.
[X] Action Plan: Money Doesn't Grow On Trees (It Grows On Granite)
Word Count: ???
  • Sanity-check with Mari/Kei.
  • Ino
    • Plan a private date.
      • Be there for her. Let her lead.
    • Would she be a sounding board for a clan head issue?
      • Explain Asuma's Hagoromo suggestions.
      • Will Hagoromo ever leave Goketsu alone?
        • They'll always have plausible deniability.
        • Would it matter if Goketsu de-escalated?
      • How can Hazo break the cycle?
      • Discuss Ruka, reconciliation.
      • OOC: the intention of this segment is to shift Hazo's characterisation away from hatred of the Hagoromo and towards the realization that the cycle of hate is unproductive and stupid.
    • Inoite mirror - shell around reflective metal, jeweled handle, all materials condensed/toughened.
  • Shino:
    • Prepare prop lenses using high-quality quartz.
    • Previously, we talked about a telescope deal to improve Leaf; are you still interested?
      • Show him our prop lenses.
      • Discuss how they may be used to produce better telescopes.
      • Could we make bigger, stationary telescopes for very long-distance viewing?
    • We're also interested in meeting with Hinata. Could you help facilitate it?
  • Hinata:
    • We've come across several uncut gemstones, and hope to have them cut before selling.
    • We understand that the Hyuga has connections to luxury craftsmen, and would know where to cut them.
    • CCnJ (if appropriate): We respect you and think you're a good person. We want to see you prosper. We genuinely want to collaborate on this deal for mutual advantage.
  • Other:
    • Prep for Sealing exam.
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Are we also voting on a non-conclave plan? I'm a bit lost, but if we are I'm inclined to vote for this.
@faflec reading the mirror bit carefuly, maybe specify "Inoite and Coreundum mirrior"? I think the idea is to use transparant Coreundum to replace glass for the mirror, the pearl-y Inoite to for the frame and/or decoration. Hazoupilot could *probably* sort it out, but specificity helps. Sorry for asking for so many tweaks.

---

@Crunbum , Your point about physique's value snowballing at higher levels seems like a good argument for ignoring it until Joinin, then considering buying up a bunch all at once. also, this seems sidetracked from the discussion of the battle plan.
I think @Shrooms says we can activate a bunch of debuffs and a TN60 goo bomb on our first turn, and that the pangolin can't substitute out, so it's an auto-win unless they can make TN60 while debuffed(unlikely) or one-shot us(something enemy Jounin have failed to do).
I'd also like it if we can solve this without a fight, but in a fight our odds of winning sound pretty good to me. Did I miss something?

And for perspective, I understand why some posters feel like you aren't being a good listener, or feel like you are coming to interactions from an unhelpfully hostile perspective.
I'm not trying to badger you, just offering an data point that these observations aren't being made in bad faith, in case you find that useful.
 
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RE: Orochimaru's intimidate: Hazo has 12 TYS points. Oro probably has at least as many(participating in his work gave us our 11th point, I think). that's at least a +12 to intimidate. it's unclear to me if TYS also resists intimidate, or how Forged in Fire interacts with this.
(disclaimer, I'm still not great at the mechanics yet)

@acidshill you've mentioned timeskips repeatedly. How would that play out? What would you want to cover before entering the timeskip, what would you like to skip over, and how long would you want it to be?
Please explain/pitch it to me.
 
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Left-Hand Mutant said:
Are we also voting on a non-conclave plan? I'm a bit lost, but if we are I'm inclined to vote for this.
@faflec reading the mirror bit carefuly, maybe specify "Inoite and Coreundum mirrior"? I think the idea is to use transparant Coreundum to replace glass for the mirror, the pearl-y Inoite to for the frame and/or decoration. Hazoupilot could *probably* sort it out, but specificity helps. Sorry for asking for so many tweaks.
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We are, and I can.
faflec said:
Might as well post this in case.
[X] Action Plan: Money Doesn't Grow On Trees (It Grows On Granite)
Word Count: 232
  • Sanity-check with Mari/Kei.
  • Ino
    • Plan a private date.
      • Be there for her. Let her lead.
    • Would she be a sounding board for a clan head issue?
      • Explain Asuma's Hagoromo suggestions.
      • Will Hagoromo ever leave Goketsu alone?
        • They'll always have plausible deniability.
        • Would it matter if Goketsu de-escalated?
      • How can Hazo break the cycle?
      • Discuss Ruka, reconciliation.
      • OOC: the intention of this segment is to shift Hazo's characterisation away from hatred of the Hagoromo and towards the realization that the cycle of hate is unproductive and stupid.
    • Mirror - shell around reflective metal, jeweled handle made of corundum-mica (name it Inoite), all materials condensed/toughened.
  • Shino:
    • Prepare prop lenses using high-quality quartz.
    • Previously, we talked about a telescope deal to improve Leaf; are you still interested?
      • Show him our prop lenses.
      • Discuss how they may be used to produce better telescopes.
      • Could we make bigger, stationary telescopes for very long-distance viewing?
    • We're also interested in meeting with Hinata. Could you help facilitate it?
  • Hinata:
    • We've come across several uncut gemstones, and hope to have them cut before selling.
    • We understand that the Hyuga has connections to luxury craftsmen, and would know where to cut them.
    • CCnJ (if appropriate): We respect you and think you're a good person. We want to see you prosper. We genuinely want to collaborate on this deal for mutual advantage.
  • Other:
    • Prep for Sealing exam.
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Click to shrink...
 
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