Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

Oneiros · Oct 28, 2022

TBH in regard to all the Ami drama, I don't really care if it was manipulative or not. It did nothing for me to change my mind on her getting FOOM. She was willing to murder our family because she thought Kei was in endanger. So asking for power to kill Oro because he threatened Kei. Not because he's a murder and a psychopath. This just reinforces my priors until she atones and shows that she won't go off the handle she can't be trusted with power

Lord Marshal · Oct 28, 2022

Ronike said:
Can I ask what she could have said that you wouldnt have found suspicious/manipulative, while maintaining the message 'I see you are having troubles, and I want you to know I want to help'? Because to me, trying to say that and then leaving out that Hazou previously promised power seems like it could have been taken as manipulative as well. Let Hazou think he came up with the idea on his own, that sort of thing.

1) Simply not mentioning FOOM, she knows is a complicated topic and she knows Hazou still has doubt regarding it, it's not even really relevant to the topic itself: "We will kill him, when the times comes" is more than enough
2) Do not put herself as the promised party who is owed FOOM, nor as the primary actor: "You will use that power(FOOM) to kill him, when the times comes, we will end him"
3) address the problem: "I'll kill him and i need to do FOOM, but i understand why you have doubts and i'll try my best to resolve them, even if you don't share it, you can still do it"
4) Again, do not yank the emotional levers with both hands and help him(This is 1, but it's such common sense)
5) Generally try to ground Hazou in a more stable emotional state and then propose it to him, because good friends/lover/something do not use someone emotions and trauma against each other

At the end of the day, with Ami there will always be a current of "How social spec is she being", but there is continuum in this, this was pretty blatant IMHO even in that continuum.

Noumero said:
But it's really such a weird, pointless, transparent ploy? Even if Hazou was manipulable in this way, CBAs seem against it, since Hazou (or Mari) just spots it post-factum and infers that C524 was a lie and never trusts Ami with anything ever again. Like what's happening right now!

Her plots are usually much better.

Yeah, i know.
The best guess i have is "It's not like he'll stop talking to me and he already kinda doesn't trust me, i literally threatened his entire family. Also, it's FOOM, the fact i'm not going all out is already a kindness". Only she approaches it from a "everything is social warfare", i approach it from a "being a toxic and abusive person is bad".
best guess, this confuses me too.

eaglejarl · Oct 28, 2022

FaintlySorcerous said:
"Lord Hagomoro, despite what street players may have you believe, I am a research sealmaster, and a good one. To say nothing of the fact that this a Skywalker and my original creation, and to ignore the implied sleight that I would be so irresponsible as endanger any of our fellow clan heads, your objection simply confuses me. I understand that you have been without a sealmaster for a period and may have become unused to the risks inherent in the discipline, but seals like this one are a vital component of Leaf's capacity to make war and are created throughout the village, all day and night long, with you well within the radius of potential failures. Will you be banishing Harumitsu to Mist while he makes explosives for your clan and the village? Or will the outskirts of the village be far enough for you to feel safe?"

I have no problem with any plans for my updates including the words "Say this" linked to the quoted post. (i.e. no need to spend wordcount.)

Lord Marshal said:
-Hazou draws Jiraiya's boo seal, gives to Ritsuo to activate it to prove it's completely innocent(Possibly make volume higher to scare him).

Note that Jiraiya's Epic Seal of Awesomeness With A Really Awesome Name That You Have To Say All Of Every Time Or It Won't Work And Also I'll Punch You In The Face, This Means You, Hazō is a bizarre anomaly in the sealing literature. It's stupidly easy to learn and create yet somehow the principles behind it are so complex that modifying it in any way, or even reusing its basic principles, is very hard. It's a weirdly subtle flex that only another sealmaster would truly understand -- "I'm so good that I can make the ridiculously hard not just look easy but be easy."

KaGoGoGadgetMe said:
Did we ever research Bigger Storage Seals, or are we still limited to the basic MIN(100kg, 1m^3)?

You did not and you are, respectively.

Noumero · Oct 28, 2022

Lord Marshal said:
best guess, this confuses me too.

Actually, we can try to settle this sort-of-objectively. Hey @Velorien, does Hazou remember his exact mental state immediately after Ami uttered the following?:

Velorien said:
"The other thing is… Orochimaru tried to kill Kei. I hate him more for that than a normal person is capable of hating anybody. I will smile and nod at him for as long as I have to, but one day I will kill him with the power you promised me, with your help if you'll give it, and on that day the Final Gift Programme will be ash."

What was it? Failing that, what were Hazou's general feelings and thoughts on the subject of Ami and FOOM when he left that instance of two individuals spending a day together in order to facilitate greater mutual knowledge and familiarity? In particular, does he report an elevated desire to share FOOM with Ami, perhaps based on the idea that she's somehow the individual to empower if he wants to oppose the FGP and antagonize his dear snake uncle? Alternatively, did he not even think of it in terms of "I am reassured that Ami will take care of this", and the idea seems completely alien to him? Does he feel manipulated, now that this interpretation of Ami's words has occurred to him?

Oneiros said:
TBH in regard to all the Ami drama, I don't really care if it was manipulative or not

Yeah, but manipulations are so fun to discuss and decipher!

Lord Marshal · Oct 28, 2022

eaglejarl said:
Note that Jiraiya's Epic Seal of Awesomeness With A Really Awesome Name That You Have To Say All Of Every Time Or It Won't Work And Also I'll Punch You In The Face, This Means You, Hazō is a bizarre anomaly in the sealing literature. It's stupidly easy to learn and create yet somehow the principles behind it are so complex that modifying it in any way, or even reusing its basic principles, is very hard. It's a weirdly subtle flex that only another sealmaster would truly understand -- "I'm so good that I can make the ridiculously hard not just look easy but be easy."

But you would have Jiraiya suddenly saying "Boo" at Ritsuo! When he didn't expect it! Imagine Ritsuo jumping in his seat thinking Jiraiya the S-ranker came back! After he insulted Kei and Hazou!

Lysbeth Succubus · Oct 28, 2022

eaglejarl said:
Note that Jiraiya's Epic Seal of Awesomeness With A Really Awesome Name That You Have To Say All Of Every Time Or It Won't Work And Also I'll Punch You In The Face, This Means You, Hazō is a bizarre anomaly in the sealing literature. It's stupidly easy to learn and create yet somehow the principles behind it are so complex that modifying it in any way, or even reusing its basic principles, is very hard. It's a weirdly subtle flex that only another sealmaster would truly understand -- "I'm so good that I can make the ridiculously hard not just look easy but be easy."

So what you're saying is this is a great training seal, and even has Hazō in its name?
... was it included in the seals we gave everyone for the competition? I'm just saying that if every sealmaster in the Land of Fire knows Hazō's name we could try to milk it for reputation some day in a hilarious ploy.
"Oh yeah I'm the Hazō from that training seal name. See it was a bit of fun between us two, I used to bounce ideas around with Jiraiya, gave him more headaches and made his eyes grow wide in shock more times than I can count, ha! Anyway, you're talking to someone influential and extremely well-versed so you better explain what it is exactly you're working on right now, before I tell you how it's going to fail"

Lord Marshal said:
But you would have Jiraiya suddenly saying "Boo" at Ritsuo! When he didn't expect it! Imagine Ritsuo jumping in his seat thinking Jiraiya the S-ranker came back! After he insulted Kei and Hazou!

[X] Action Plan: Prank with the best

Commit to the following:
When we get Jiraiya back, use JESoAWARANTYHTSAOETOIWWAAIPYITFTMYH
- Just as he comes back (he'll just love us for this)
- Just before he makes an entrance, preferably in Ritsuo's back (for obvious reasons)
Whether or not we decide to use JESoAWARANTYHTSAOETOIWWAAIPYITFTMYH regularly before that, to set the thing up, is up to any of our specific plans until then. Pros: will make Ritsuo angrier. Cons: will lose some shock value.

Noumero · Oct 28, 2022

Lord Marshal said:
But you would have Jiraiya suddenly saying "Boo" at Ritsuo! When he didn't expect it! Imagine Ritsuo jumping in his seat thinking Jiraiya the S-ranker came back! After he insulted Kei and Hazou!

And then, just after he realizes it was just a seal, BOOM and Jiraiya the S-ranker actually comes back! Ahahaha!

Edit: Oh,

'd.

Oneiros · Oct 28, 2022

[X] Action plan: Politics and Power

Ino
- Drop by the Yamanaka estate and generally be a good partner. Buy her a new dress with Mari's advice, ask how her clan is doing/how she's doing.
- Considering that Ino is the fulcrum by which the gossip engine of Leaf rotates, Hazou assumes she is aware of the play portraying their poly triad.
  - Mari said it wasn't concerning. Still, it seems like a fun social opportunity.
  - Hazou was thinking of becoming the new patron of the same crew and other crews, and commissioning even more absurd plays to confuse the narrative, while ideally spreading messages of positivity. Theater is popular among the masses, ninja and civilian both, and good relations with thespians is a better bet than trying to oppose them.
  - What does Ino think is the best approach? What does she think the most fun approach is?

Naruto
- Go over all the rewards we got from trading with Oro
- Meetup with Naruto and offer to trade him whatever he might be interested in for jutsu that Jiraiya left him
  - Hazou knows how Naruto feels about him but he thinks Jiraiya 's clan should have some of his legacy
  - Hazou understand that he might not want him to learn them but we would be willing to promise to restrict them however Naruto wants
  - We miss him and we're hitting a wall on figuring out how to get him back.
- Talk about Hazou's struggles on trying to get the rift open
  - Hazou has some vague thoughts that combining a custom justu with seals we might have better luck
  - Hazou knows that Minato was able to combine the two disciplines to incredible effect
    - Based on how complicate the Bijuu seal Hazou wouldn't even be able to begin to understand any notes he left
    - But if Naruto knows someone who might be willing to teach Hazou we would like to know about them
    - Or if he knows of any beginner level resources we might start to study

RandomOTP · Oct 28, 2022

Oneiros said:
Considering that Ino is the fulcrum by which the gossip engine of Leaf rotates, Hazou assumes she is aware of the play portraying their poly triad.

I would like a general check to see how Ino is doing, and how she feels about the play. While I doubt she cares what the Hag think about her, it's still throwing dirt on her reputation.

I feel as though it would be in character for Hazou to check in on Ino, and see how she's holding up, before moving on to politics.

Oneiros said:
Meetup with Naruto and offer to trade him whatever he might be interested in for jutsu that Jiraiya left him

I'm a bit leery on offering Carte Blanche like this, before we even know what Orochimaru gave us. I'd be more willing to do something akin to "exchange copies of..." or "share openly between the two clans."

Oneiros said:
Talk about Hazou's struggles on trying to get the rift open

I doubt Naruto would really care, tbh. He's not a sealmaster, and would only be interested in progress achieved.

I would also like a general Mari optimization/Sanity Check involving anything with Naruto, just to be safe.

This all said: I'm preserving my votes for plans that have Hazou investigate the pattern Ami danced into Hazou's brain via the Iron Nerve. It can be offscreened, if you would prefer, but I wanted to be transparent that these suggestions are just that: suggestions. They won't be enough to earn my vote.

Velorien · Oct 28, 2022

Noumero said:
Actually, we can try to settle this sort-of-objectively. Hey @Velorien, does Hazou remember his exact mental state immediately after Ami uttered the following?:

Since the update has only just happened and it was an impactful moment, it's fresh in his mind.

In rough decreasing order of immediacy:

1) Thank the Sage, a powerful ally committed to destroying Orochimaru, a thing I badly need (since right now all I have in that regard is Mari), and can trust to be sincere because I have seen that she really is that crazy where Kei is concerned

2) I am uneasy about the promised power part because I still haven't decided how to deal with that, but saying so as a response to this would be insane and might also trigger a confrontation I'm not ready for

3) Excuse me, I will be the one to destroy Orochimaru with her help, but I concede that it would be odd for someone to see themselves as a helper in their own revenge, and it would be especially out of character for Ami to downplay her own agency

4) This is the most explicit Ami's been about wanting to shut down the Final Gift Programme, and it's a major relief, and now I can hold her to this promise if necessary

Oneiros · Oct 28, 2022

RandomOTP said:
I would like a general check to see how Ino is doing, and how she feels about the play. While I doubt she cares what the Hag think about her, it's still throwing dirt on her reputation.

I feel as though it would be in character for Hazou to check in on Ino, and see how she's holding up, before moving on to politics.

Sure though this is from @Shrooms plan from last cycle so would like to get his advice on how best to phrase it

RandomOTP said:
I'm a bit leery on offering Carte Blanche like this, before we even know what Orochimaru gave us. I'd be more willing to do something akin to "exchange copies of..." or "share openly between the two clans."

This is actually one of the major reasons I wrote the plan. We are showing Naruto implicit trust to play fair with us. If we are going to fix things we can't hedge and be wishy-washy.

RandomOTP said:
doubt Naruto would really care, tbh. He's not a I sealmaster, and would only be interested in progress achieved.

I thought he was aware that this was related to project necromancy? And that we're hitting a wall and reaching out to him for help thus working on repairing the rift between us while talking about the Rift

RandomOTP said:
I would also like a general Mari optimization/Sanity Check involving anything with Naruto, just to be safe.

Yeah def was wanting to include this but wanted to get an exact phrasing that would satisfy people

RandomOTP said:
This all said: I'm preserving my votes for plans that have Hazou investigate the pattern Ami danced into Hazou's brain via the Iron Nerve. It can be offscreened, if you would prefer, but I wanted to be transparent that these suggestions are just that: suggestions. They won't be enough to earn my vote.

Have negative interest in this TBH so would only be willing to include it if you voted for my plan. Sorry

Shrooms · Oct 28, 2022

RandomOTP said:
I would like a general check to see how Ino is doing

Looks like that's there already

Oneiros said:
ask how her clan is doing/how she's doing.

RandomOTP said:
I'm a bit leery on offering Carte Blanche like this, before we even know what Orochimaru gave us.

I would also kinda prefer to see what we get first if nothing else but to make this easier on the QMS. We might not get anything Naruto actually finds valuable since he's not a medic or sealmaster, or we might hit the jackpot for something he wants. The interaction could be very different depending on our windfall

Kiba · Oct 28, 2022

Oneiros said:
I thought he was aware that this was related to project necromancy? And that we're hitting a wall and reaching out to him for help thus working on repairing the rift between us while talking about the Rift

I don't think Naruto can help us even if he wanted. He's not a TH or a sealmaster. If we want bijuu seals(if any such exists that isn't Minato), we can request it from the tower or use our reputation to acquire them.

I prefer to work on something that's more likely to succeed, like getting a lootbox from Tsunade.

Oneiros · Oct 28, 2022

Shrooms said:
I would also kinda prefer to see what we get first if nothing else but to make this easier on the QMS. We might not get anything Naruto actually finds valuable since he's not a medic or sealmaster, or we might hit the jackpot for something he wants. The interaction could be very different depending on our windfall

That's a fair consideration, though I think they should have a general idea of what's in there.

Kiba said:
I don't think Naruto can help us even if he wanted. He's not a TH or a sealmaster. If we want bijuu seals(if any such exists that isn't Minato), we can request it from the tower or use our reputation to acquire them.

The point isn't to get his help. This is a social move to repair the damage between the two of us by keeping him involved in the project.

roobee · Oct 28, 2022

Lysbeth Succubus said:
Kei's her weak spot.

I don't find the following likely, but paranoid part of me is worried that this is a long term facade as well. Designed so that others can have relief/stability/security in at least being able to predict part of Ami's personality and actions. Thereby facilitating cooperation with them

Kiba · Oct 28, 2022

[X] Action plan: Medical Pursuit

Tsunade
- Offers funding to print her book for wide distribution.
- Hazo heard somewhere that the book doesn't have everything in it due to classification.
  - Where can he find a copy of the 'real book'.
  - Offers to advocate on Tsunade's behalf to declassify some of the information.
    - It's important that people can improve their medical skills to better help other.
Setup a combat medicine school.
- Badges upon graduation certifying student fit for medical duty in squads.
- Teach enough medicine so that students would be able to help their squadmate regardless if med-nin is present.
  - Screen for anybody who wants to be a med-nin.
- Also start offering relevant medical knowledge courses to civilians as well.
Seal research:
- Continue the Minato chain.
- Research chakdar for longer range(gives alertness bonus).

Lord Marshal · Oct 28, 2022

Velorien said:
Since the update has only just happened and it was an impactful moment, it's fresh in his mind.

In rough decreasing order of immediacy:

1) Thank the Sage, a powerful ally committed to destroying Orochimaru, a thing I badly need (since right now all I have in that regard is Mari), and can trust to be sincere because I have seen that she really is that crazy where Kei is concerned

2) I am uneasy about the promised power part because I still haven't decided how to deal with that, but saying so as a response to this would be insane and might also trigger a confrontation I'm not ready for

3) Excuse me, I will be the one to destroy Orochimaru with her help, but I concede that it would be odd for someone to see themselves as a helper in their own revenge, and it would be especially out of character for Ami to downplay her own agency

4) This is the most explicit Ami's been about wanting to shut down the Final Gift Programme, and it's a major relief, and now I can hold her to this promise if necessary

I'm so proud of our boy. He's so Uplift/outcome oriented emotional plays aren't effective on him, because his will is strong to be beyond something things like "deep emotional trauma that he will carry for the rest of his life"...also scared for him, but mostly proud.

It's also funny that Hazou is basically discarding everything regarding Ami's emotional responses, judging only her statements of intent, again, so proud of Hazou, it makes so much sense considering Ami's "set of priorities, the rest is malleable" POV.

FaintlySorcerous · Oct 28, 2022

[X] Action Plan: I can't think of a good title
Word count: <300

Ino
- Drop by the Yamanaka estate and generally be a good partner. Go shopping for clothes with her (with Mari's advice) and foot the bill. (Ninja fight to see who pays!) Ask how her clan is doing, and how she's doing.
- (Run the following by Haru first - don't step on his investigation. Check with Mari, too. Organize an Ino-Haru meeting as a followup if it seems appropriate.)
- Ino's the the fulcrum around which the gossip engine of Leaf rotates. Hazou assumes she's aware of the play (plays?) portraying their triad.
  - Mari said it wasn't concerning, but it might be a fun social opportunity?
  - Hazou was thinking of becoming the new patron of that troupe and others, commissioning increasingly absurd plays to confuse the narrative, and ideally spreading messages of positivity. Theater is popular among ninja and civilians, and good relations with thespians are a better bet than trying to oppose them.
  - What's the best approach, in Ino's opinion? The most fun approach?
Mari
- Employ appropriate security measures.
- Why do you want to create genjutsu?
  - We have some ideas for non-combat genjutsu - soothe PTSD, manage addiction - but what matters is what she wants.
- We don't know enough about genjutsu to solve the problem.
  - Have you ever heard of anyone using non-torture genjutsu in combat?
  - What makes genjutsu effective in combat?
  - What differentiates genjutsu creation and THing? Could you increase the effective range, hit multiple targets, etc.?
- If drained SCs don't pass memories, could you create SCs, test on them in conjunction with Noburi?
Dribs and drabs
- Learn Skywalkers.
- Continue pursuing Minato's sequence (time allowing)
- Ask around for THers in other clans to train Reo.
- Find out when Noda's funeral will be and make arrangements to attend.

Shrooms · Oct 28, 2022

FaintlySorcerous said:
Action Plan:

Needs a title to vote for

FaintlySorcerous said:
Find out when Noda's funeral will be and make arrangements to attend.

This was nearly 2 weeks ago at this point, and we don't know when Noda gave herself up to be considered dead. Not sure we will be able to go.

FaintlySorcerous said:
We don't know enough about genjutsu to solve the problem

I feel like we can still generate a few suggestions though?

RandomOTP · Oct 28, 2022

FaintlySorcerous said:
[X] Action Plan: I can't think of a good title
Word count: <300

Ino

Drop by the Yamanaka estate and generally be a good partner. Go shopping for clothes with her (with Mari's advice) and foot the bill. (Ninja fight to see who pays!) Ask how her clan is doing, and how she's doing.

(Run the following by Haru first - don't step on his investigation. Check with Mari, too. Organize an Ino-Haru meeting as a followup if it seems appropriate.)

Ino's the the fulcrum around which the gossip engine of Leaf rotates. Hazou assumes she's aware of the play (plays?) portraying their triad.

Mari said it wasn't concerning, but it might be a fun social opportunity?

Hazou was thinking of becoming the new patron of that troupe and others, commissioning increasingly absurd plays to confuse the narrative, and ideally spreading messages of positivity. Theater is popular among ninja and civilians, and good relations with thespians are a better bet than trying to oppose them.

What's the best approach, in Ino's opinion? The most fun approach?

Mari

Employ appropriate security measures.

Why do you want to create genjutsu?

We have some ideas for non-combat genjutsu - soothe PTSD, manage addiction - but what matters is what she wants.

We don't know enough about genjutsu to solve the problem.

Have you ever heard of anyone using non-torture genjutsu in combat?

What makes genjutsu effective in combat?

What differentiates genjutsu creation and THing? Could you increase the effective range, hit multiple targets, etc.?

If drained SCs don't pass memories, could you create SCs, test on them in conjunction with Noburi?

Dribs and drabs

Learn Skywalkers.

Continue pursuing Minato's sequence (time allowing)

Ask around for THers in other clans to train Reo.

Find out when Noda's funeral will be and make arrangements to attend.

I'll vote for this if you tack on something about investigating Ami's dance.

Also: Hazou learned skywalkers last update, iirc.

Velorien · Oct 28, 2022

Lord Marshal said:
It's also funny that Hazou is basically discarding everything regarding Ami's emotional responses, judging only her statements of intent, again, so proud of Hazou, it makes so much sense considering Ami's "set of priorities, the rest is malleable" POV.

Without commenting on the accuracy of your assessment, note that @Noumero asked for Hazō's "exact mental state immediately after Ami uttered the following".

Shrooms · Oct 28, 2022

Velorien said:
Without commenting on the accuracy of your assessment, note that @Noumero asked for Hazō's "exact mental state immediately after Ami uttered the following".

yea everything before and after that was "dam she looked fine in that sundress"

Immortal Lurker · Oct 28, 2022

eaglejarl said:
Jiraiya's Epic Seal of Awesomeness With A Really Awesome Name That You Have To Say All Of Every Time Or It Won't Work And Also I'll Punch You In The Face, This Means You, Hazō

We should mess up the name immediately before attempting to resurrect him, to give him that extra incentive to come back.

coldcutconvict · Oct 28, 2022

[j] "Damn, would Detonate look that fine in a sundress?"
Try to repeat the feeling of the dance. Same conditions. Same clothes. SC dance partner.

faflec · Oct 28, 2022

coldcutconvict said:
[j] "Damn, would Detonate look that fine in a sundress?"
Try to repeat the feeling of the dance. Same conditions. Same clothes. SC dance partner.

VIHH: Alright, let's dance with one of our own Shadow Clones.

HAZOU: *Hazou.exe*

SNOWFLAKE: *blushing furiously* Yes.

Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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