- Pronouns
- He/Him
And then infuse them anyways
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
- Start date
-
- Tags
- naruto rational rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
- Location
- Yes.
lol what hazou
i do wish we offered it to shika though. he could help with opsec too.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
I intend to do normal XP until we get ES 50, and then go all in on it.
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
I'm in favour of all-in on the notes, starting as soon as we feel like. It costs us about 100 XP in lost clone-hours, but gets our Sealing sky-high months earlier. Once we get ES 50 and start 3D Sealing (presuming, of course, that we unlock 3D Sealing via ES 50), I want to get a running start with as high a Sealing score as we can manage.
- Location
- The Soviet Republic of Canuckistan
- Pronouns
- He/Him
"Lord Hagomoro, despite what street players may have you believe, I am a research sealmaster, and a good one. To say nothing of the fact that this a Skywalker and my original creation, and to ignore the implied sleight that I would be so irresponsible as endanger any of our fellow clan heads, your objection simply confuses me. I understand that you have been without a sealmaster for a period and may have become unused to the risks inherent in the discipline, but seals like this one are a vital component of Leaf's capacity to make war and are created throughout the village, all day and night long, with you well within the radius of potential failures. Will you be banishing Harumitsu to Mist while he makes explosives for your clan and the village? Or will the outskirts of the village be far enough for you to feel safe?"
We're totally baiting him at that point which Asuma will not approve of, especially during a clan council meeting, but tbh if they go for long enough then banging some of them out with the IN ain't a bad idea. If Asuma legitimately gives us side-eye, we can apologize, infuse them, and hand them over to the Tower free of charge, not counting against our tax.
Or maybe even to Lord Hag directly as an apology.
Could we get a tag out of scribing seals during meetings, do you think? The intimidation factor is pretty good.
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Aodyssey
The glass will not protecc you
- Location
- Chaldea
New plan: come up with a seal to install the player's hive mind into Orochimaru*
*maybe we can sell it to him
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Yeah about that intimidation... We got 5.
- Location
- Italy
"Hey, traumatized person, don't worry, i am like you. I can fix it, if only you will me the power(that you promised me but i burned the bridges and now that asking directly won't ge me nowhere, so it's my fault but you promised me) i will fix it, i will fix everything, and destroy that thing(That i helped created), with your help(Because i will do it, you can only help) i will destroy it. You just need to give that power and i'll take care of it. You promised".
Yeah, no. I'm sounding the Social Spec Jounin alarm bells. Please tell me we're not falling for the most classic seduction attack, please.
- Pronouns
- She/Her/They/Them
She made it obvious what she wants and why she thinks we should give it to her. That's respect from her, though it could be part of her tactics.
I say we're responsible enough to make the decision to wait, but we acknowledge that.
Also she mentioned the desire to escape with Kei to another continent. We can assume this to be truthful and without manipulation. Kei's her weak spot.
In general I convinced myself she's inclined to help us and pardon our faults because she acknowledges us both as an agent of chaos and a plurality (as hivemind). She sees kinship and wants to build upon it - and perhaps would like to "raise" someone(s) truly like her. The way she teases us is almost entirely bigsisterly, so there may be some of that here. She didn't have a "small sibling" before, what with having Kei who was more of a deity to her.
Xilentxium
Existential Crisis Management
- Location
- Temperate Regions
Classic Hazo, even in victory he tastes sweet defeat.
- Location
- London
- Pronouns
- He/Him/They/Them
Did we ever research Bigger Storage Seals, or are we still limited to the basic MIN(100kg, 1m^3)?
- Location
- Italy
I don't mean the message itself "I want to murder Oro" is, of course, true. "I want FOOM" is also of course, true. i don't even need to mention that "I hate Oro because he hurt Kei" is true, but as Mari mentioned "vulnerability for closeness" is Social Spec 101 and lying is how amateurs works.
What i object and think it's blatantly manipulative is the emotional framing
"I want FOOM" is framed in the idea and feelings killing Orochimaru, the person that hurt and traumatized Hazou and Hazou explicitly told Ami he considering a blight on the world
"FOOM" is the power Hazou promised, the thing he already established he would give her(And implicitly the only thing that she requires to kill Orochimaru)
"We have the same goal" becomes "I will kill Orochimaru with FOOM, you can help" establishing her as the primary actors in such and basically the hope for Hazou to escape the shadows Oro's cast.
Ami doesn't work by being truthful or lying, and i'm not saying her relationship with Hazou is false or a facade, High level social specs don't work like that. But this? This right? It's a manipulation that plays on Hazous trauma and pain to obtain FOOM, framing it as his hope to deal with such.
From another person? It could be simple way to try and support us. From Ami? There is absolutely no way she didn't understand what she was doing, and to be honest i find pretty disgusting, even if in line how social specs play the game: "Use the trauma a person just suffered to obtain power by hyping yourself as his hope" is bad, It's similar to what we saw happening with the Mist Jinchuuriki and said "Oh, they are trying to brainwash him" and because we want a closer relationship with her it doesn't mean we should ignore or not be conscious of such behaviour.
I'll be honest, the fact that Hazou opened up to her and she did that was pretty low of her IMHO, because i know she can and was sincere and direct in other situations exactly to not do that.
EDIT: TL;DR there were far less manipulative ways to do that, and Ami knew it. Therefore the framing was blatantly on purpose, counting on Hazou vulnerability to not notice the emotional framing she was doing. Not the brightest idea IMO, but i guess ninjas will be ninjas. I'm also surprised she thinks Hazou "i ignore your models" wouldn't notice it.
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- Pronouns
- She/Her/They/Them
That's where we diverge - I believe she's playing her cards straight and making it as obvious as possible so he'd know the idea is there. She wants something, she likes to "train" Hazō, she has opinions in line with ours. In a way, I think she's going as close to "I'll Uplift (wink wink nudge nudge) you" as she can go without spelling it out directly.
- Location
- Italy
we don't? I too think she's playing her cards relatively straight, that she likes to train hazou and she has opinion in line with ours.
I'm not debating that, i'm saying that that behaviour("emotional framing") was manipulative and somewhat abusive and used Hazou openess and vulnerability as a weapon against him to give Ami a tangible advantage in something she want and that is pretty disgusting behaviour to do to someone that just confessed what Hazou confessed to her.
I'll be honest, i don't see how Ami could have said what she said without willfully trying to be manipulative, i'm trying to see how, and i'm not finding it. Not someone as well versed in sociality as Ami
Just because she's something doesn't mean bad behaviour is not bad behaviour, we were pissed when Mari blatantly tried to guilt Kei IIRC, this did not mean everything regarding Mari suddently wasn't true anymore.
EDIT: somewhat related, my "trust Ami" counter moved backwards here, because "willing to use someone emotional vulnerability against him" is not a trusted behaviour, as Ami-Naruto, AMI-Mist Jinchuuriki, Mari-Kei, ect shows. It has a current of disregard for the other person similar to "i'll murder all of you if that's what's needed to marginally help Kei".
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Noumero
Omit Needless Words
I see what you're saying, and it makes a lot of sense when you put it like this, but... Well, that idea didn't even occur to me when I was reading, because "we need a FOOM'd Ami to end the FGP, she's our only hope" is just a complete nonsense claim? Once we've FOOM'd we can end it ourselves, there's no reason to believe that any FOOM'd Gouketsu would be any less capable of doing that than a FOOM'd Ami, or that a FOOM'd Ami would be somehow uniquely better at ending Oro than a FOOM'd Gouketsu. She's not anything special combat-wise as far as we know, and doesn't have any esoteric combat-applicable bullshit and holds no promise of inventing such?
It's such a nonsense claim that I can't imagine it being effective even against a recently traumatized, emotionally vulnerable Hazou, and so my model of Ami doesn't try it. As such, I read that statement mostly just as her validating and commiserating with Hazou's feelings and impulses.
I agree that how it's placed and phrased is very suspicious, though. But I'm downgrading the manipulation hypothesis on strong priors.
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- Pronouns
- She/Her/They/Them
This is the part I mean though - I think this is not actual manipulation because she's making the ploy that would otherwise have been manipulation fairly obvious. If she wanted to manipulate Hazō it'd've gone like that:
Ami, Rapport: way too much!
Hazō is Taken Out!
Consequences from Mari pending as soon as she finds out!
Instead it went:
Ami, Hazō, have a pleasant chat. Ami throws a curveball, lots of fluff, nice
In my opinion none of it is actually manipulative because if she wanted to force the issue, she could have, and probably would have. Social specs always being manipulative in some way notwithstanding, I believe her to be as open as can be - that is to say, this slight pressure streak to be at worst a bit of thought needed from Hazō and at best a wink to him, and not unfair influence.
- Location
- Italy
I kinda agree with this, Hazou showed himself far too resilient to such behaviour and it's strange Ami used it...but she did. The fact is that, again and again, Ami showed herself far more understanding of how people felt from her actions, to be point she even got angry at us for assuming she didn't do something on purpose. (The whole pregnacy fiasco)
So we can be fairly sure Ami knew how would it sound and she did it regardless. Moreover, you need to consider that we, the hivemind, are emotionally removed, Hazou is not, and Ami can only see Hazou (Regardless of the fact we know that Ami does various things at once and she is, again, extremely conscious of what her words do).
My model of Ami says that she never do things without thinking, if she said something, is generally for a reason,(words and levers) maybe it was a low risk situation too good to pass on?
I would like to note that social combat is not mind control, and Ami trying to force the issue would basically have the opposite effect, because we would notice the rolls. (It's interesting to ask if we would see rolls incidentally in that case, or the narrative would just be changed accordingly without telling us), social combat that is based on convincing Hazou(us) kinda break the system, because the rolls have no effect on us.
But that's not really relevant? Ami not being the worst she can be isn't really evidence against her being manipulative, saying "Well, if she wanted to manipulate us she would have done worse, so manipulative behaviour is not manipulative" doesn't really...work? Yes, Ami is complicated and is not on a warpath, so?
Regardless, the primary problem i have is she's using Hazou vulnerability as a weapon, and that's...bad? Not something a person we can trust should do, regardless of how much worse she could do? That doesn't seem such a controversial take to me,i'll be honest.
EDIT: I guess it's a disappointment because i wanted to see Hazou and Ami develop a sincere bond, but such behaviour hints that sincere bonds are kinda impossible if the other person basically do this when Hazou shows vulnerability, and it's kinda of pity for me.
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- Location
- The Void
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I actually wanted to see how people felt about waiting to see what Oro thinks about how to handle the GS before we invest in ES. Since outside of that the main reason to take it is the mystery box. And If we have the great seal open I'd rather focus on basic survivability first before going for a complete unknown
- Location
- Italy
Variations:
-Hazou draws Minato seals("I need to train with it, you know, really contribute to the village")
-Hazou draws Oro's basic seals from the exchange, says "It's just Orochimaru's seals, relax"
-Hazou draws Sasori's seal from the Itachi meeting
-Hazou draws the Cannibal seals, explains what happened to Ritsuo,says "Still can't quite seem make it work"
-Hazou draws Jiraiya's boo seal, gives to Ritsuo to activate it to prove it's completely innocent(Possibly make volume higher to scare him).
Can I ask what she could have said that you wouldnt have found suspicious/manipulative, while maintaining the message 'I see you are having troubles, and I want you to know I want to help'? Because to me, trying to say that and then leaving out that Hazou previously promised power seems like it could have been taken as manipulative as well. Let Hazou think he came up with the idea on his own, that sort of thing.
Noumero
Omit Needless Words
Mm, "doing everything for a purpose" doesn't mean accounting for and intending every hypothetical purpose that someone might assign to your actions; it only means accounting for the effects that your actions actually have. It's only a calculated ploy intended to manipulate Hazou into sharing FOOM if Ami can reasonably expect it to evoke FOOM-sharing feelings in Hazou, which, given her expertise, she'd only expect if Hazou was, in fact, such a person as to feel like sharing FOOM upon Ami executing this sequence of actions.
And my model of Hazou is not such a person, so my model of Ami does not expect this to work (and doesn't, in fact, even consider the possibility of it being interpreted the way you're interpreting it), so "she, a social spec, couldn't not understand what effect it'd have on Hazou" is invalid because it did not, in fact, have this effect on Hazou.
Note that I'm not asserting all of the above with certainty; it's just my current highest-probability model of what happened. I agree that the way she phrased it is weird, and that it's in a suspicious place in the conversation, and I've too raised my eyebrows at her reminding Hazou of "the power you promised me" (I'd have expected a genuine!post-524!Ami to be a bit more hesitant about expecting Hazou to follow through on that).
But it's really such a weird, pointless, transparent ploy? Even if Hazou was manipulable in this way, CBAs seem against it, since Hazou (or Mari) just spots it post-factum and infers that C524 was a lie and never trusts Ami with anything ever again. Like what's happening right now!
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