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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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FaintlySorcerous said:
Snip.
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Did you math out how much exp FOOM provides, versus how much it costs to start up? Because I did. It takes far, far longer than your randomly named "three months" to pay back the investment lol. And again, exp has diminishing returns in terms of value per point. And skill pyramid has rules to it. It, in fact, takes multiple years to even get even, for Ami.

The formula below is a 99% accurate formula for exp required for one full column with an X capstone, using normal cost skills:

Exp = 0.038x^(2.855)+91

To reasonably refer to it as "FOOM", Ami would need Resolve 70 or so at least. She needs propping skills for that, one of which can be Shadow Clone 60, because she wants that anyway for FOOM. This additional column will cost her 7130 exp. Even if her xp rate is 4.75/day (we know even Itachi isn't 5/day), this is 1501 days, or over 4 years of spending exp on just that.

The resulting safe (Pass clone sickness check on -9 dice) FOOM efficiency, at the end, is optimistically ~76 clone hours. Each clone training block is 3 hours. This means 25 training blocks a day, or +250% xp, as each training block is +10% xp. The starting safe FOOM efficiency (which she can only start doing at SC 30+, so it doesn't immediately start), is, assuming Resolve 40 at present, ~46 clone hours. This means 15 training blocks, or +150% xp. Extrapolate between the two, and the average extra exp rate she gets via FOOM is +200%.

Sounds like a lot, yes? Well, its not really, because that still takes over two years to pay for itself only. And then you have to consider that it forces a Resolve capstone-ish, as well as the same for SC, meaning your actual prowess is lower than your pyramid skills would indicate. So payoff is more like three years really, at the very least. And then you're stuck with a hefty multi-column because you're a social spec too, and you continue to pay the price going forward as a result.

As a rule of thumb it takes triple the exp to go up by 20 levels. So long-term (we are talking half a decade or more in the future), Ami would be at the absolute most 20 levels ahead of where she would be without FOOM, with 10 of those levels being in Resolve, so its really only 10 levels ahead. She would still be paying the opportunity cost years from now! FOOM is not a magic trick that makes you a god. Its good for chuunin going to jounin, and jounin with narrow column builds who want to get ahead, but its not some crazy shiny.

Ami is in fact probably better off not FOOMing but just getting SC to 30 and training with it without going full on FOOM, its nearly the same gains for her, with basically no startup cost. And she is getting SC anyway, as she is a Leaf jounin now, and I can't imagine she'd not want that technique or be unaware of it being a thing. She might even already have it.
 
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Crunbum said:
Nope. This is just wrong. Jounin is ~15k xp or so. Team Uplift currently has 6-8k exp depending on the character. Could we have a tier 60 skill if we didnt FOOM? Sure. Would that make us a jounin? Not by a long stretch.
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Where are you getting this number? Because unless there has been additional inflation jounin level means having 60 in your primary stat. So Akane currently is only short about 300xp from hitting those numbers
 
So there's a lot of assumptions about what a FOOM Ami looks like, and about her being a social spec. Regardless of whether we should include her or not, here are two point five factors I think are important for why Ami would be scary, faster than some people seem to think.

1) Resolve is important for a social spec. She faced down Kages and Oro with over-the-top schemes. She organized a coup. She functions with the Mori voice consistently. There's no way she doesn't already have a decently high resolve level, which means she'll start FOOMING about as high as we already are.

2) the stats and columns are to make sense of the narrative, not the other way around, and NPCs don't have quite the same rules anyway I think. Ami already has Jonin socials. Nothing says she can't just, like, leave the social stuff where it is for a couple years and then go Jonin to elite Jonin to S-rank, and then be just overall competent. Honestly, the scarier flipside is where Ami decides to triple down on socials and gets so good it doesn't even matter. She already has one jinchuriki wrapped around her finger, after all, and another further along than is ideal.

2.5) Ami in particular benefits from SC in combat because she's a ranged weapon spec who's main strategy has always been to not get hit and not go into fights she can't win. A couple Jonin snipers on command, who aren't brawling or needing Chakra, is spooky.
 
FaintlySorcerous said:
She also told us that she reviewed the personal notes/journals of Yagura - the secrets ones he didn't let other people read. If those notes don't lead to at least one shiny I will eat a hat.
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Well we have Jiraiya's sealing notes, some Jinchuriki notes and Minato's poetry. And don't get a shiny fro more it.

We should get even more bonus sealing levels. Or Calligraphy.

Or be able to seal a dragon into our digestive system.

[No] EAT THE DRAGON PARTS. DOVAHKIIN QUEST!

Of course, this was an Elder scrolls quest all along! Time to hunt for dwemer artefacts and make friends with the Dragons! They are probably just confused!
 
FaintlySorcerous said:
the plan you are currently voting for credibly makes an enemy out of Ami, or at least starts us down that road. Worse, it uses Mari as the weapon in that conflict, which can only end badly. Pardon the mass ping, but this seems bad.
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Worth the risk IMO. Ami has proven herself dangerous and we can't afford her getting FOOM. This situation is vastly changed from when we offered her that. She threatened to kill us and our clan over Mari. We can be cordial with her and ally with her, but she ain't riding the Hazou train to godhood. No siree.
 
Sir Stompy said:
Worth the risk IMO. Ami has proven herself dangerous and we can't afford her getting FOOM. This situation is vastly changed from when we offered her that. She threatened to kill us and our clan over Mari. We can be cordial with her and ally with her, but she ain't riding the Hazou train to godhood. No siree.
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I don't think I disagree with you. I do think that this is something that we need to make explicit to her ('Ami, we promised you this technique, and then you threatened the life of a member of our family - until such time as we're convinced that your goals align with ours to a degree where we are not putting our family in peril by dramatically empowering you, we will not be dramatically empowering you') as opposed to moving through Mari and playing dumb. The last thing we need is further Mari-Mori friction.

I am worried that Ami will independently figure out FOOM, either strictly independently, by thinking hard about what else Naruto might have (once she realizes that he doesn't have a special technique), or through a hint from Kei. That would be pretty bad in the case where we've outright refused to honour a deal we made with her which motivated her decision to radically alter her life, and I think we need to wargame that out.
 
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FaintlySorcerous said:
The last thing we need is further Mari-Mori friction.
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I already believe there's no way Hazou would've forgiven Ami so easily without the Hivemind making him partially insane/inconsistent in his actions. He told Naruto he would burn down the world to protect his family and goes apeshit on the slightest of provocations against them, apparently to a degree that one of our estate genin thought that meant he was next after indirectly offending Kei. That he would forgive Ami so easily after literally threatening to kill all of them is... well, that's the Hazou, #1 most unpredictable ninja or whatever

But to think that Mari will forgive Ami so easily? Mmm idk about that. I fully expect Mari to look for ways to stick it to Ami with full deniability. I just hope blocking Ami getting SC is on that list...
 
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FaintlySorcerous said:
I am worried that Ami will independently figure out FOOM
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If SC-Ami is anything like Snowflake than Ami will simply figure it out by giving her Shadow Clones more time per day to be their own person and asking us (or better just Noburi) for the chakra.

People here love any kind of Ami interaction already. If SC-Ami is acting even more "friendly" towards Hazou, then it's a done deal.

RandomHiveMindPerson: "But the more friendly Ami version will influence Ami's thoughts and convince her not to harm us or Mari! And only Ami can outsmart Ami!"

Personally, I am simply curious whats going to happen there, we should take some notes and if shit goes south pass them to Orochimaru.
 
Oneiros said:
Where are you getting this number? Because unless there has been additional inflation jounin level means having 60 in your primary stat. So Akane currently is only short about 300xp from hitting those numbers
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Jounin level in a stat is 60-79 range. But having a low jounin skill level in a stat does not make you a jounin. If its one stat it likely does not even make you a Special Jounin if you are otherwise found lacking. You can't really be that if many of your core combat skills (like Physique and Substitution) are still genin level. And pyramid requirements exist.

Akane (8886 exp) is technically 345xp short of hitting Taij 60 (Which would be 9231 exp). But she is not going there right now, and for good reason. Her Physique and Substitution are still genin level, as mentioned above, for example. Her Athletics, Alertness and CR are akin to those of an average low-mid chuunin, too (~40-50, or 30 in case of CR as its a double cost skill). Still, she can shore those up, and she's just 1114 exp short of the 10k exp benchmark I gave for the SJ threshold, so in about that much exp she's going to officially move up to that level I believe. Its about as much as she needs to prop her Physique to 40, her Substitution to 30 and her Athletics to 60 (all of which are more important to her than Taij) which would just barely get her there.

I envision an average full jounin as someone with a 70 capstone, two 60 skills and a triple column beneath. This takes 0.038 * (70^2.855 + 60^2.855 + 50^2.855) + 273 = 14 540 exp.
I envision an average special jounin as someone with either one or two 60 capstones, two 50 skills and a triple column beneath. This takes at most 0.038 * (60^2.855 * 2 + 40^2.855) + 273 = 10 760 exp (or still over 9000 exp for a single 60 capstone). Both of these numbers grow rather substantially if the skills of these ninja are not literally all at the rock bottom of their respective skill tiers, too. Therefore I believe 10k exp for SJ threshold and 15k exp for Jounin threshold to be feasible approximations.
 
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Well the standard we have been going by for multiple years was 60 in one stat. So you're arguing against the normal convention
 
Oneiros said:
Well the standard we have been going by for multiple years was 60 in one stat. So you're arguing against the normal convention
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My understanding for jonin-tier combatant was that you have near-60 in your 3 main stats, Attack, Athletics, and Alertness, whatever you choose for Attack

That still may only make you spec jonin like Yuno though, whereas a true jonin is a bit more diversified. Hard to say, and Leaf's standards are going to be lower than usual right now since they're starved for jonin
 
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Shrooms said:
That still may only make you spec jonin like Yuno though, whereas a true jonin is a bit more diversified. Hard to say, and Leaf's standards are going to be lower than usual right now since they're starved for jonin
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It used to be that 50 was considered what you needed for spec jounin and 60 for regular. Generally as time goes on people just continue to upgrade their idea of what a jounin is.
 
Halberdier said:
So there's a lot of assumptions about what a FOOM Ami looks like, and about her being a social spec. Regardless of whether we should include her or not, here are two point five factors I think are important for why Ami would be scary, faster than some people seem to think.

1) Resolve is important for a social spec. She faced down Kages and Oro with over-the-top schemes. She organized a coup. She functions with the Mori voice consistently. There's no way she doesn't already have a decently high resolve level, which means she'll start FOOMING about as high as we already are.

2) the stats and columns are to make sense of the narrative, not the other way around, and NPCs don't have quite the same rules anyway I think. Ami already has Jonin socials. Nothing says she can't just, like, leave the social stuff where it is for a couple years and then go Jonin to elite Jonin to S-rank, and then be just overall competent. Honestly, the scarier flipside is where Ami decides to triple down on socials and gets so good it doesn't even matter. She already has one jinchuriki wrapped around her finger, after all, and another further along than is ideal.

2.5) Ami in particular benefits from SC in combat because she's a ranged weapon spec who's main strategy has always been to not get hit and not go into fights she can't win. A couple Jonin snipers on command, who aren't brawling or needing Chakra, is spooky.
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The thing is that Ami does not *need* to Foom the way we do (making Resolve her capstone and levelling SC to a high level). She can just literally do regular SC training and achieve 75% of the efficiency which pursuing full FOOM would give her, while paying nothing in the short term. The scary part is that this is not FOOM. This is regular SC training, and she might well have SC already, as she's a Leaf jounin now. And even if she doesn't have it, we will not be able to keep the technique away from her regardless.
 
eaglejarl said:
"Well, doing the easy part first, this is the money." From a storage seal he brought forth an elegant rowan-wood chest, a cubit long, half that wide, and a few inches deep. The hinges and clasp were made of silver and when he opened it the inside was lined in a rich, midnight-blue velvet. The richness of the chest was effectively invisible because everyone was riveted to its contents.
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Hazou made sure the chest was ornate and stylish because he knows that his wife would kill him if he dared to present her nation's work in anything less than an artistic masterpiece.
 
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any way the best way we can make sure we aren't surpassed by dark lord Ami is just delay cutting her into FOOM. When she gets SC just give her a one year timeline
 
Lysbeth Succubus said:
The reports we have mostly say you "break into" a jōnin. You sacrifice things, you prioritise other things which become part of your aura. Asuma, and all other Kage, need to deal with a lot of stress and a lot of sacrifice on a daily basis. It wouldn't surprise me if that line of work had TYS-worthy reports on the daily.

My thoughts are "it doesn't cost her a thing" and "she wasn't expecting any kind of social-off with us"


Probably not berries. They eat meat, but then again we can offer them a lot of meat from Dog they probably rarely get, and from the Human Path that they've probably never tasted ever. Could we get fresh corpses from the hospital? Assuming that's not a SufficientVelocity no-no.

My expectation is "granite is simply harder to bore through because it's a lot denser than wood".

He just needs help from Nishino-sensei to see the righteous truth!

I kinda wanna see what happens when the Purifier seals overload with its presumably toxic fumes

It's sort of like saying "easy" or "calm down"

That could be a thing but I think we're going with "5SB means no movement means no energy transfer so the salamander keeps going at the same speed" and "that spider silk is so thin that this is essentially a laser mesh"

tag Flat-footed + tag Distracted + tag Blinded by Rage (tag passed by Hazō) + invoke Favoured target (already drew his ire in the past) + invoke Favoured target (of the QMs who need to have their fun (or rather their funching-ball)) + invoke Pride of the Nara + invoke That's mah waifu

You do not fuck with noble and/or founding clans' reputation and pride. Also, she's his favourite human being. And he's whipped, as far as husbands go. Also...

By shouldering responsibility for this, I think he expects to be possibly executed for failing Leaf gravely in a time of war, tantamount to sabotage by incompetence.

And tacit support for Hazō and his story. The power play is evident in body-control, but you can read so much into it. Shikamaru acknowledges the Dragons as a threat and makes Ritsuo acknowledge them as a threat. He's also building an artificial power ladder with both himself and Hazō above Hagoromo, using the spoils of Hazō's latest kill as a still credible danger to Hagoromo. He's also using the spoils of Hazō's latest kill as a tool, which puts him levels of control above the Gōketsu (though the Founder Clan thing already did). And that's just the surface layer - he's making his shadow possession extra spicy, he's eschewing body language he'd normally use, he's absolutely not talking like he usually does... If I didn't have incredibly important exams next week I should be working on instead I'd gladly write three pages worth of analysis on that which no one would ever read.

The universe resets

Oh, not obviously so. But a Nara clan without death contingencies is like a proper gentleman without a monocle. That is to say, HE CAN HARDLY BE CONSIDERED A TERRIBLY PROPER GENTLEMAN AT ALL.
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I'd just like to let you know that if you wrote a three page analysis on Shikamaru's body language I'd absolutely read it and possible quibble on interpretations with you, that sounds awesome.
 
In regards to Ami thinking the Goketsu have the secret formula to making FOOM a practical possibility, I really think we need to ask ourselves: To what regard is this actually true?

Because I'm pretty sure that FOOM becomes waaaaay harder to use if you don't have access to Hazo's mathemathically correct training plans and instead are forced to try and inefficiently diddle around with FOOM on your own.

If FOOM without Hazo is inefficient to a sufficient degree we might actually end up with a very intersting character dilemma where Ami is forced to trust Hazo with her completely unredacted character sheet if she wants that ultimate power.

Which suffice to say would be a BIG ask for someone like Ami of all people.
 
Twinnstars said:
I'd just like to let you know that if you wrote a three page analysis on Shikamaru's body language I'd absolutely read it and possible quibble on interpretations with you, that sounds awesome.
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I'm already an omake behind on my plans and I have exams starting next Monday of the "settling whether you just wasted a year or have a job for life" kind so in two weeks, if I can find the spoons for it, and I don't forget, and if you will humour my probably-not-very-consistent analysis, sure, I'd write that kind of thing. Maybe not three actual pages of it, but maybe that much.
 
As part of the next EJ update, I say we give the Nara that one light relay seal so that they can develop Morse Code, which we can then give to the Hokage. That way Shika can redeem the Nara Clan with our help (our seal, their code).
 
Shrooms said:
My understanding for jonin-tier combatant was that you have near-60 in your 3 main stats, Attack, Athletics, and Alertness, whatever you choose for Attack

That still may only make you spec jonin like Yuno though, whereas a true jonin is a bit more diversified. Hard to say, and Leaf's standards are going to be lower than usual right now since they're starved for jonin
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The way I see it is a lot like what you described, though I'd place more emphasis on shinies. A full-fledged Jounin sounds like they 1) have their combat suite at or around 60, 2) have their build fleshed out enough to cover obvious weaknesses, and 3) have at least one big trick. If you're in Jounin-tier combat and you don't have a trump card up your sleeve, you're hardly a Jounin at all.

Special Jounin would exist for ninja who meet 1) but not necessarily 2) or 3) (or hidden requirement 4: don't be clanless), being able to punch in Jounin tiers but with glaring weaknesses they're hoping don't get targeted and no ace in the hole to bring out against an opponent who can match them roll for roll.
 
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