- Location
- Yes.
Something something Kani Clan something something grumbling in Keiko
Something something genjutsu something something screaming in false reality
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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
- Start date
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- Tags
- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
If you're talking about Hazou, he murdered the pedophile by punching his head off. That's a single murder.
- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
What happened to the Shark Summoners? Am I having a brain fart?
It's only murder if it's illegal. That was a legal execution.
- Location
- Yes.
Kisame is a missing-nin, last I checked.
Yeah and killing civilians on a mission isn't murder either, it's collateral damage.
- Location
- United States
In court, a jury determines whether or not something is considered to be a "false statement." In this case, they would do so in a heartbeat. Any reasonable observer would understand your statement to mean that no civilians were killed.He didn't murder a single civilian. If I had meant to say "he didn't murder any civilians" then I would have said that.
I never lie to y'all, but sometimes I'm very precise with my wording. (Also, sometimes I'm wrong or forgetful, but this wasn't one of those times.)
It was also a fraudulent statement. From the 7th Circuit pattern criminal jury instructions for 18 USC 1001, "A statement or representation is fraudulent if it is made with intent to deceive."
Additionally, since you just admitted that you knew it was false when you made it, it would be considered perjury. If you had made that statement in court, it would be considered both false and fraudulent and you would have perjured yourself.
Clear Communication Technique:
I'm worried this might come across stronger than I mean it to over text, so this seems like a perfect opportunity to use our favorite Talk no Jutsu to make sure there are no hard feelings. I am by no means saying that we should evaluate your words under a strict legal framework and I apologize if it comes off as such. I am a little peeved about the statement, but "peeved" is about as far as it goes. This post is supposed to be a light-hearted chastisement at worst, not a serious reprimand. I am using the legal system here because it is expressly designed to evaluate and label statements like the one you made. Hence, it was perfect for showing exactly why your statement and subsequent defense are utter BS.
Anyhow, looking forward to the next update! I really enjoy this story and am having a great time with the current world-ending calamity we're facing.
I'm worried this might come across stronger than I mean it to over text, so this seems like a perfect opportunity to use our favorite Talk no Jutsu to make sure there are no hard feelings. I am by no means saying that we should evaluate your words under a strict legal framework and I apologize if it comes off as such. I am a little peeved about the statement, but "peeved" is about as far as it goes. This post is supposed to be a light-hearted chastisement at worst, not a serious reprimand. I am using the legal system here because it is expressly designed to evaluate and label statements like the one you made. Hence, it was perfect for showing exactly why your statement and subsequent defense are utter BS.
Anyhow, looking forward to the next update! I really enjoy this story and am having a great time with the current world-ending calamity we're facing.
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Oh, sure. It was absolutely misleading, no argument. That was the point. I do the "literal genie" because I find it fun and history suggests that at least some of the players enjoy trying to see through my weasel words. I do, however, stick to a pretty clear set of rules:
- If I'm wrong about something I correct it and call out the mistake.
- Official QM announcements are non-deceptive.
- I do use humor but I make it very clear, such as "Yes, killing Hidan in order to steal his scythe to use it against the Dragons is definitely a good idea with no possible downsides. Yup yup yup. You should absolutely do that."
- If I explicitly say something like "The following is true and not deceptive: blah blah blah" then you can rely on the plain reading of the words. (I do not say that upon request, but nice try. :>)
- If I'm playing literal genie then the statement will be literally true when parsed correctly but it's definitely intended to be deceptive.
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Story posts are written from a character's point of view and are subject to the usual sorts of error that you see in any fiction -- the character misses something, misunderstands something, etc. I don't recall using an unreliable narrator in this quest but I don't rule it out.
Official QM posts are OOC statements, usually about worldbuilding. They typically end up threadmarked in the "Informational" category.
- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
With no war declared it's murder. And piracy due to being on the sea I guess.
- Location
- UK
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Most ninja will agree that it is impossible for a ninja to murder a civilian. Most civilians will agree lest they be used as a test case.
- Location
- The Soviet Republic of Canuckistan
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Can you cite something specific? No worries if not - I'll go through the discussion eventually.
I'll implement that.
Do you have any more topics of discussion? I don't.
Specific questions for Ami about the Dragons would be useful, too.
- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
Are you serious or is it a joke?
Because I would understand it if Leaf ninja claim they never kill Fire civies. But ninja in general being paid to kill civies around the world shouldn't even be an open secret, right? Like, in most hidden villages someone could literally just hire an assassination mission as if they were ordering a steak, no?
- Location
- UK
- Pronouns
- He/Him
To clarify, a ninja killing a civilian is not murder. Civilians do not have a right to life; indeed, the concept is anachronistic.
Killing the king's livestock is illegal. Killing the Hokage's civilians is illegal, but neither of those crimes is murder. Seems about the right analogy to me.
Just out of curiosity, where do civilian members of a ninja clan fit into this?
- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
I thought that they do in Fire, at least on paper. Or does that only apply to the capital?
- Pronouns
- He/Him
This can be taken out, per Vel's announcement that Isan has already claimed them.
Same here
Sadly, we gave them to the Nara already
- Location
- UK
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Your livestock analogy pretty much covers it. Killing someone else's civilians without permission is both an insult and an instance of material harm, and generally, compensation would be expected.
More generally, the Hokage does not claim ownership of the Fire Country's civilians vis-a-vis other ninja. However, those who kill Fire civilians in a way that harms Leaf (e.g. by killing too many, or by killing important ones without a good reason) will be punished in the Hokage's capacity as protector of the village.
Can we ask Asuma if Leaf has any intelligence on how the Isan attack went? Can we also ask for deniable assets to start gathering intelligence on the Rock base?
- Location
- Book Fort
- Pronouns
- They/Them
"Miss it? Pardon me, but I seem to remember a treetop proposal, only for the notion to immediately be rejected by Keiko --the only person with religious authority that either of us would deign to listen to."
Edit: Also, the notion of Kei officiating Hazou's marriage is cute and I want to make it happen.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Very beefy plan, but I kinda think it's worth the XP penalty to be explicit to Asuma about what it actually is Hazou wants. This conversation may be better saved for later but I thought I might as well post it now so it can be refined down the line if necessary.
[X] Action Plan: The Machinations of Hazou's Mind, Revealed
Word Count: 563
[X] Action Plan: The Machinations of Hazou's Mind, Revealed
Word Count: 563
- Ami
- (Don't owe her a favor, let her be mysterious if necessary)
- How is Ami doing? Been up to anything interesting?
- Discuss Dragonwar Crisis. Hopefully the Condor Scout will inform the others, but that could take weeks.
- Keiko's mission is classified, don't talk about it. If Ami presses, offer to forward messages/gifts to Keiko.
- What's Ami's take on the Bank Run?
- (Don't owe her a favor, let her be mysterious if necessary)
- Asuma
- (Verify with Mari, Ino, Keiko, Akane, Shikamaru that this plan isn't suicidal, reputationally or literally)
- Give invitation to follow up their previous conversation, whenever Asuma wants.
- Asuma is suspicious of Hazou's motives. Hazou wants to elucidate them. If there's anything Asuma doesn't understand about Hazou, please ask so there's no doubt.
- Leaf is more than a means to an end, its wellbeing is itself a goal.
- For Hazou, Leaf's not a place, it's the people Hazou loves/respects. Protecting Leaf means protecting them.
- Hazou wants a warless world.
- He's not unique, Jiraiya felt similarly, among other ninja, probably including Asuma.
- Hazou doesn't know how to achieve this yet. He isn't completely naive - presently, kindness from Leaf would be taken advantage of by other villages, something he loathes.
- Hazou wants clanless recognized.
- Hazou grew up essentially clanless. He's seen how their lack of support disenfranchised them and undermined Mist's strength.
- Asuma thanked Hazou for good ideas regarding clanless; they're more than ideas to Hazou. Even if he doesn't completely agree/understand, Asuma's proven he'll engage Hazou's ideology seriously.
- Only other authority who did this was Jiraiya, and Hazou respects them both immensely for it.
- Hazou wants civilian lives considered worthwhile.
- Skyslider team is run by civilians, Gaku (a civilian) is vital to Goketsu's success, and Hazou can be frustrated with the world that they aren't seen as people sometimes.
- It feels herculean, but seeing Leaf begin embracing clanless makes Hazou hopeful.
- Leaf is more than a means to an end, its wellbeing is itself a goal.
- Why do these motives lead to wildly inconsistent levels of success?
- Hazou works best in closed systems, where he can account for everything. Conversely, his goals for the world are complex.
- Generally, Goketsu's strategy has been Hazou generating many ideas of varying quality. Those who grasp the bigger picture better than Hazou sift through plans and make them viable.
- When his advisors aren't available, Hazou hesitates to enact new major plans. This means he doesn't create new problems, but it does mean he can miss flaws in ongoing plans, and old ideas can come back to bite him.
- In the case of scrip, the idea was approved, and Hazou was content to put it on the backburner, seeing that it was successful. His mistake: he should've continued seeking advice, and someone could have pointed out the exploitable weakness he was creating.
- When his advisors aren't available, Hazou hesitates to enact new major plans. This means he doesn't create new problems, but it does mean he can miss flaws in ongoing plans, and old ideas can come back to bite him.
- Generally, Goketsu's strategy has been Hazou generating many ideas of varying quality. Those who grasp the bigger picture better than Hazou sift through plans and make them viable.
- He can struggle with big picture, but he excels at rapidly taking in and adapting to new information. This improvisation helps manage crises of his own creation and those that befell Leaf, which is why he seemed to come out ahead.
- Intentionally hurting innocent lives for personal gain is antithetical to the world he wants to build. It's more than hypocrisy, it would actively set his goals back to use those methods.
- Hazou does want Goketsu to prosper, if only to promote his beliefs, much like other clans. However, it can't come at the expense of Leaf.
- Hazou works best in closed systems, where he can account for everything. Conversely, his goals for the world are complex.
- Thank Asuma for hearing Hazou out. Asuma doesn't have to be so considerate, and the fact that he is matters to Hazou.
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- Location
- The Soviet Republic of Canuckistan
- Pronouns
- He/Him
It's on the list of edits to make.
Did we give both of them to the Nara? What did we get in exchange for them? I think it was my plan, and I don't remember saying 'give both over'.
I'm going to assume you mean the Rock attack. Asking if we're cleared to know about that (i.e. before asking 'how did that go' ask 'can we know') seems smart.
I'm less inclined to ask for deniable assets given that he just gave us a speech about how we need to do this on our own. I'd like to at least have a plan before we go asking.
However, I'm a little stumped as to how to come up with that plan. We don't have any long-range capability, we don't have an intelligence network, we don't have...well, lots of stuff. The only person we could contact who does have any of that is Ami, but 'there's a Summoning scroll here, probably' seems like it'd probably be Treason.
We probably need to lean on the resources of the Nara to get Isan finished - we haven't done nearly enough of that. Keiko is Lady Nara, and she's in charge of the mission. That (to me) pretty clearly indicates that they're running the show and footing the bill.
- Location
- Book Fort
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Cut the wordcount to 443, with some minor word choice alterations to better convey the connotative feel that I think you're aiming for.
The magenta line is something you may want to reconsider wording, since dehumanization of the Clanless is pretty common place and things like "philosophical personhood" may not necessarily exist in MfD --beyond, perhaps, the Five Thinker Clans. Like the QMs have pointed out, civilians aren't moral/legal persons --immigration/emigration of civis isn't noted at all --and first generation ninja are seen as little better than Civilians.
I'd suggest something about disenfranchized nationals being less loyal to their homes, and that enlightened self-interest should mean that civilians should be treated with more respect (if for no other reason than someone has to farm, shovel shit, and other meanial/mundane labor and ninja are too busy fighting chakra beasts, sealing away rampaging Tailed Beasts, stopping Pein, putting down doomsday cults, etc).
Unfortunately, the very deathworld nature of MfD --and the fact that ninja are bred and slaughtered against the ceaseless tide of existential threats --means that attitudes toward civilians are often (at best) Ino's particular brand of "they live by our sacrifice, and the peace they enjoy in bought with the blood and tears of our people." And while Asuma isn't actively bigoted by the way of the Hagoromo, I could see him subscribing to this "casual bigotry" that persists in even the "liberal" Leaf Clans.
Edit: that also makes Hazou out to seem more mercenary/less empathetic than he really is.
The magenta line is something you may want to reconsider wording, since dehumanization of the Clanless is pretty common place and things like "philosophical personhood" may not necessarily exist in MfD --beyond, perhaps, the Five Thinker Clans. Like the QMs have pointed out, civilians aren't moral/legal persons --immigration/emigration of civis isn't noted at all --and first generation ninja are seen as little better than Civilians.
I'd suggest something about disenfranchized nationals being less loyal to their homes, and that enlightened self-interest should mean that civilians should be treated with more respect (if for no other reason than someone has to farm, shovel shit, and other meanial/mundane labor and ninja are too busy fighting chakra beasts, sealing away rampaging Tailed Beasts, stopping Pein, putting down doomsday cults, etc).
Unfortunately, the very deathworld nature of MfD --and the fact that ninja are bred and slaughtered against the ceaseless tide of existential threats --means that attitudes toward civilians are often (at best) Ino's particular brand of "they live by our sacrifice, and the peace they enjoy in bought with the blood and tears of our people." And while Asuma isn't actively bigoted by the way of the Hagoromo, I could see him subscribing to this "casual bigotry" that persists in even the "liberal" Leaf Clans.
Edit: that also makes Hazou out to seem more mercenary/less empathetic than he really is.
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