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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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roobee said:
World A and World B are equally good worlds.
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10x = 20x only if x = 0. If happiness is zero, then supper dupper happiness is also zero. This basically means that you assign misery any value as long as it is between - Infinity and zero, while happiness is caped at zero.

RandomOTP said:
So, how do you think we'll be able to get Snowflake and the rest of our existentially-weird family to be permanent, and not reliant solely upon the shadow clone jutsu?
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Hmm. Will this work:

Keiko creates elemental Clone. Keiko creates Snowflake. Snowflake casts Yamanaka jutsu of mind transfer on elemental Clone.

If it works, we can ask uncle Oro of alive but mindless body to use instead of Clone.

Additional chakra absorbtion would be nice, as well as - probably - keeping Snowflakes shadow-body undamaged.

Oneiros said:
Ooooh important question what scroll do we want to get for Ino? I'm pretty sure that's a good welcome to the polycule gift.
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Feline would suit her well
 
roobee said:
World A: There are 10 beings in existence. All super happy.
World B: There are 20 beings in existence. All super happy.
World C: There are 20 beings in existence. 10 super happy. 10 would rather have not been born.
World A and World B are equally good worlds. World C is a worse world.
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That simply makes zero sense, except by pure and arbitrary fiat. And even with instinct that doesn't hold true except for people with an instinct that is obviously skewed and moved away from the types of instincts that actually help with survival and reproduction. Which as such can't be all that common.

You are aware that by your argument destroying the universe in glorious self-annihilation is always the 100% correct choice, right? Because if we change your numbers but keep your multipliers in tact, we have:

World A: There are 0 beings in existence. All super happy.

World B: There are 1,000,000,000,000 beings in existence. All super happy.

World C: There are 1,000,000,000,000 beings in existence. 999,999,999,999 super happy. 1 would rather have not been born.

If A and B is equal, but C is worse, then you are saying that suicidal people are in the right to commit omnicide if capable.
 
faflec said:
EJ: *writes Orochimaru infiltrating Hazou's basement and kidnapping him*
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Pedantry: I'm pretty sure that "write whatever you want" is short for "write Hazou doing whatever you want him to do", meaning that if Orochimaru is planning to infiltrate Hazou's basement and kidnap him, he is going to try to do that regardless of whether we vote for EJ to write whatever he wants or not.
 
Noumero said:
Pedantry: I'm pretty sure that "write whatever you want" is short for "write Hazou doing whatever you want him to do", meaning that if Orochimaru is planning to infiltrate Hazou's basement and kidnap him, he is going to try to do that regardless of whether we vote for EJ to write whatever he wants or not.
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[X] Blow up Hazou's basement :p
 
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Chapter 432: Forgiveness, Responsibility, and the Ami Manoeuvre
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    • It was a pleasant evening on the Seventh Path. The lack of sun shone dimly, indicating an end to the day's labours. The goldenrod Dog sky was undisturbed by the cataclysm unfolding in distant lands. Keiko was radiating an aura of impenetrable misery. The insects buzzing in the air were blessedly uninterested in Hazō's blood, phlegm, or spiritual substance.

    No, wait. One of those things was not like the others.

    "Keiko," Hazō said. "It's good to see you. How are you?"

    "Fine," Keiko said heavily. "Yourself, Hazō?"

    "Also fine," Hazō said. "It's been weeks, and only a limited number of things have tried to kill me. Even the Seventh Path grass hasn't tried to eat my sandals once. Honestly, it's disconcerting."

    "I find it deeply validating," Keiko replied. "Just as the depths of true evil cannot be plumbed without the ability to reject good, so the demonstration that a Path need not be constantly attempting to murder its inhabitants is proof that the universe hates humanity specifically and wishes it to suffer."

    Only Keiko could take a lack of senseless murder as evidence of the cruelty of the world.

    Although, on the other hand, if the Sage, who according to many accounts had at least been born mortal, was capable of creating such a relative paradise, what did that say about the kami that had fashioned the Human Path? It would not have fazed any ordinary Mist native, of course, to learn that a world crafted from the corpse of the primal leviathan, a creature of raw chaos and destruction, should express these horrific traits. But Hazō could no longer see things that way. If he, a mere human, could dedicate himself to turning the world of war and death around him into utopia, then no greater being got to claim poor raw materials as an excuse.

    In which case, were those greater powers too apathetic to human suffering to make the effort? Or worse, inimical? Yes, he could see how pursuing this line of thought too far could leave you with Keiko's worldview.

    Moving urgently on...

    "Are you sure you're OK, Keiko? You don't seem your usual self."

    "I am fine," Keiko repeated. "There is no cause for concern. Let us move on to matters of greater import."

    "Keiko," Hazō said patiently, "I know I'm not technically involved with this mission, but you told me up front that you welcomed my advice. This is my advice to you now. You're on an A-rank mission where anything less than peak performance could put the whole team in danger. If something's wrong, then we should deal with it as soon as possible, or at least talk it through so we can find a temporary solution until we can address it properly back home. Is that in any way unreasonable?"

    "Curse you and your unimpeachable logic," Keiko muttered after a second. "But Hazō, there is no solution to be found here. It is merely an irreconcilable difference of... everything."

    Success. Hazō had half-feared a speech about how Keiko's feelings didn't matter enough for him to waste his valuable time on them.

    "With whom do you have an irreconcilable difference of everything?"

    "Mari," Keiko said reluctantly. "There was a confrontation. She claimed that, with the Gōketsu's position in Leaf so precarious, we needed guaranteed success in the field, even if that meant backing Azai's rule instead of exploring more ethical options such as insurrection. I refused. It is we who plunged Isan into its current lamentable state, and to condemn it to that state in perpetuity for our own convenience is not acceptable. In retrospect it is immensely telling that she considers my guilt over that outcome to be a purely personal issue, where as our team leader she was just as culpable if not more."

    Hazō nodded. Really, he should have seen this coming, and they should have discussed it more thoroughly before they ever set off. If Keiko had put her foot down over dealing with the High Priest from the beginning, they might have approached the entire mission differently.

    Then again, it wasn't as if that was solely a Keiko problem. Yuno had begged them to save Isan from the High Priest from the moment she arrived, yet they'd all left it until now to decide whether to commit. For that matter, shouldn't he be more invested in Isan's fate? Now he considered it, there was something distinctly un-Uplift about shrugging off a tyrannical regime within arm's reach just because it didn't have any direct impact on his existing plans.

    "I understand where you're coming from, Keiko. This is a serious issue which we all need to sit down and discuss as a group. Well, in my case, the logistics don't exactly make that easy, but I think we can make use of lists to—"

    "You misunderstand," Keiko interrupted. "This is not an issue. Yuno already agrees with me unreservedly, and I have faith in Noburi's humanity. Then, even if she dismisses my motivations, in her advisory role Mari has no standing to gainsay the three of us. Isan will be saved, one way or another.

    "No, the issue is what came next. As the discussion turned heated, I appealed to Mari's own past as a commonborn, which should surely allow her to appreciate the plight of the minority oppressed by Azai's regime. Far from it. She revealed that at the Academy, she had wilfully joined the ranks of the bullies, and prospered from being the oppressor while claiming it to be necessary for her survival—a vile deception she clings to even now. To think she would have the gall to make that claim to me, one who endured a full Academy career without once attempting to join the 'winning team' or to transpose my suffering onto others.

    "At her towering selfishness made plain… I confess I snapped. Hazō, they were the words of the woman who had left dozens of children to die in the Swamp of Death, unaltered and unrepentant. They were the words of the woman who, driven to confess her crimes only by self-hatred, never once imagined asking for my forgiveness after she tore me from Ami and destroyed my life. I waited for nearly a year for a simple, honest admission of fault, and a request for forgiveness which I would somehow grant, wiping the slate clean. It had never occurred to her. For if it had, surely she would have spoken the words, even as a lie. It is not as if she has ever struggled to manipulate me."

    She paused, as if unsure whether to carry on. Hazō waited.

    "I confess I do not understand how you and Noburi have forgiven her crimes, as if the past can simply be erased by a record of good behaviour since. You know what Ami is to me. Mari, too, having researched each of us, must have known. She must have known what effect it would have on Ami, her own junior. She did not care. And even now, with the two of us restored to each other—through no effort of Mari's, for she put forward none—our relationship is not what it was, and never will be.

    "Perhaps you can forgive her because the gain outweighs the loss. Certainly, on balance our lives now are far beyond what we could have hoped for in Mist. How fortunate that she only abandoned everyone else.

    "You knew the others as well as I, Hazō. Probably better, given how little I had by way of a social life. Kimura Hayato had lent me an inkstone for an important test after my own had been stolen. Serizawa Junko, having accidentally knocked me to the ground while running past, had stopped to help me rise and spent precious seconds confirming my lack of injury. Shinohara Ryūji offered to carry my pack repeatedly, and was in constant conflict with Noburi for no reason I could discern, and in retrospect I wonder if, in radical defiance of probability, he also had a crush. Ueda Genji took time out of his important business to instruct me on how to drive tent pegs into uncooperative swamp soil. Satō Minori meant nothing to me in particular, but her bedroll was next to mine, and I listened to her weep at night because she was her family's second missing-nin and she was certain the Mizukage would now execute the rest.

    "I can name every one. I can describe their appearances. I can even give you brief lists of useful facts. Sumie-sensei would have accepted nothing less from a Mori on her logistics team. Morobuni Ryōtarō, ambushed by flensereeds shortly after arrival in the Swamp, had advanced training in concealment ninjutsu. Sanada Kiriko, consumed by some parasite our half-trained medic-nin could not identify, had been earmarked for a central place in the new command structure as a former genin team leader. Fukama Ichirō, killed after he refused to be deceived by Shikigami, was the first clanless shinobi in a generation to develop a complete taijutsu style, although my documents did not clarify what made a style 'complete'.

    "I do not claim to be qualified to speak on the dead's behalf. I doubt any one of them would have chosen me to represent them. However, as the sole Swamp survivor willing to hold Mari accountable for her crimes, I am all they have. And if Mari is not capable of apologising even to me, then she will not spare them a thought until the end of time.

    "Hazō, Mari's redemption is a lie. I do not deny that she has changed. I do not deny that she has grown capable of love and its attendant virtues, or the significance of that accomplishment. However, she cannot claim to have outgrown the Heartbreaker while she pretends away the Heartbreaker's crimes, any more than a gardener can claim to be planting a rose garden while in her hand there are only mountain hydralisk seeds. And I cannot accept as family a woman who would simply saunter away after destroying my life and dozens like it.

    "That is all. There is no resolution. I am not so arrogant as to believe I can change Mari's heart and bring about some spiritual awakening where she will recognise as monstrous what she now considers trivial. I am not so naïve as to believe that she will not manipulate me into granting her however much forgiveness she desires—not because she sees value in the act, but because she does not desire conflict within her family. Until then, all I can do is await the inevitable."

    Could Hazō not leave these people be for a single—no, that was unfair. This conflict had been brewing for a long time now. Still, it could have been headed off if only Keiko had talked about her feelings, instead of bottling everything up until it exploded. Then again, it could also have been headed off if Mari had ever made her confession as a rational choice before it came out in the midst of an emotional crisis, and dealt with the consequences then, or if she hadn't subsequently let sleeping dogs lie even though Keiko had told her to her face that she was loved but not forgiven. Why couldn't everyone just say the right thing at the right time like Akane?

    Fine. Gōketsu Hazō to the rescue.

    "Keiko," he said, "am I right in understanding that the problem is that because Mari hasn't apologised, you think she doesn't care?"

    "Boiled down to its most basic constituent parts, I suppose that is a valid interpretation," Keiko said cagily. Doubtless she expected him to try to argue her out of her viewpoint. "Whether she cares or not, however, she has consciously chosen to reject responsibility, in defiance of both the most basic morality and the fact that, as a professional in the field of human relationships, she cannot possibly be ignorant of what such closure would mean to me."

    "You're right," Hazō said. "It would be very strange for her not to know. And if she knew what it would mean to you, it would be very strange for her not to apologise, even if only in a dishonest and manipulative way like you expect she will now. Why do you think she hasn't?"

    "I can only assume it was a blind spot," Keiko said. "Were she to ask herself, 'What are the real-life consequences of my monstrous crimes, and how should I engage with them?', certainly she should be able to predict the feelings of her surviving victims. That she has not is proof that she refuses to face them, even in the cold, detached way of the Heartbreaker. And what is more abhorrent than one who refuses to face the consequences of their actions?"

    For a second, she looked away, in the direction of the Pangolin lands.

    "That's one possibility," Hazō agreed. "but I think there's another one. Like you say, Mari could manipulate you with a fake apology. But suppose she doesn't want to?"

    "What do you mean?"

    "If she wants to give you a genuine apology, but her instinct after a lifetime of manipulation is to just say whatever will make you feel better, then she might not be able to apologise until she's able to master that instinct. I can't really go into detail without violating Mari's confidence, but I do believe she recognises the problem, and she is working on it, even if it's not obvious from the outside."

    "Then you have either misunderstood or been deceived," Keiko said coldly. "If she were but to glance in the direction of the Swamp of Death with a sincere intent to perceive the truth, she would find enough material for apology there that no amount of manipulation would be necessary to embellish it. To merely face the full reality of her actions would, if she possessed but a sliver of a conscience, provoke enough contrition to satisfy a thousand Keikos. If she believes that more than that is necessary or possible, than she has faced nothing at all."

    Hazō really needed to get the people in his life to talk to each other more. If he hadn't been Mari's sole confidant (as far as he knew), if she'd at any point let Keiko in on the complex inner struggle she'd been going through in order to redefine herself, he was certain Keiko would be more willing to give her the benefit of the doubt now. Or, of course, if Keiko had spoken about her own pain, instead of assuming (entirely reasonably, but still assuming) that Mari would figure it out for herself.

    "I'm not saying you have to forgive her, Keiko," Hazō said. "Only you can make that decision. I'm just trying to think this through for myself. One thing I need to understand is what you want from her. Do you just want her to apologise for what she put you—and me, and the others—through? Is there some concrete way in which she's supposed to repay you? What would that look like?"

    "I have explained," Keiko said. "An apology is no longer possible. I cannot trust that, when no notion of apology for such grand crimes has ever occurred to her before, one delivered immediately after I requested it would be genuine or heartfelt. And insofar as I cannot provide that forgiveness of my own free will, I must resign myself to that free will eventually being stripped away."

    She paused.

    "I wish it were not so, Hazō. I wish Mari were an ordinary human being, one without the power to casually fake even the most extreme contrition, and that I could trust her apology and her desire for forgiveness, grant it, and return to a happy family life. I do not wish to be the villain who ruins everyone's happiness because she alone has not resolved her issues with her past while all others have moved on."

    "We'll figure something out," Hazō said. "I promise. For now, just think about possibilities. What kind of resolution you'd find satisfying if we could make it happen. How it might work. I'm not asking for answers—just for you to keep thinking and not give up on making this right.

    "And Keiko, you are not a villain. You were wronged. That's plain fact. No one is saying you have to deal with the Swamp of Death the way Noburi and I have. Maybe I'm the strange one for forgiving Mari so easily after she tore apart my family the exact same way she did yours. Maybe Noburi is strange for saying it all worked out for the best when so many people are dead. Maybe none of us are strange, because there's no right or wrong way of dealing with something like this.

    "You were wronged, and if what you want is some kind of restitution, then that's what the rest of us will help you get."

    Probably. He had no idea how Noburi had responded to Keiko's actions—by the sound of it, she didn't know yet either. He wasn't sure how Akane would either, though he wasn't too worried about the girl who had supportiveness in the part of her soul where others had self-preservation. Kagome-sensei… would leave well enough alone. It was a policy that had served him well so far. But when it came to Yuno, and any others who might get pulled into this conflict… well, perhaps he had been a little precipitous in speaking for the undefined group. He hoped that wouldn't come back to haunt him.

    "Thank you, Hazō," Keiko said. "I do not believe a positive resolution to this is possible, but given my general incompetence in the field of… well, most things that involve relating to other people, I must grant that you may find possibilities I cannot."

    It would do for now.

    "Do you think you'll be able to continue to work with Mari?" he asked. "At least for the Isan mission?"

    Keiko nodded without further comment.

    "I realise talking about this must be pretty upsetting for you," Hazō went on, "so do you think you're up for talking about the plan instead? How is it going? Have you been able to start looking for recruits?"

    "Oh, the plan," Keiko said wryly. "I fear you will not enjoy hearing about the plan."

    -o-​

    "I guess she has a point," Hazō conceded. "I stand by the basic concept, but when you put it like that, it does sound kind of rushed. I admit, what I was after was the kind of epic turnaround that Ami pulled off with the AMI and the KEI. But by the sound of it, Isan isn't exactly flexible in the right ways. What you're describing is giving off this weirdly Yagura vibe, and if we don't factor that into our plans, we're liable to end up the way Yagura's enemies did."

    "Quite," Keiko said. "The AMI and the KEI are both products of very specific circumstances. The AMI was a product of Yagura's repressive rule, which generated its own counter-force that Ami was able to exploit. It would have failed without both Yagura's tyranny and his death, combined with the brutal losses among the senior ranks that suddenly empowered the younger generation. It is an open question whether it was Ami's adaptability that allowed her to succeed despite the sudden irrelevance of years' worth of planning, or whether even those events, predictable to none, had been on her contingency list.

    "By the same token, the KEI exploited a fine balance in the Hokage-clanless relationship. Had the lineage of past Hokage been a little more favourably inclined towards the clanless, the Hokage's authority among them would have been too solid for a foreigner to interfere with. Had they been a little less favourably inclined, the clanless would have feared the consequences of challenging it. Frankly, entire books could be written about the intricacies of politics and society involved in Ami's plans. Perhaps, after Uplift is complete, I shall be the one to write them."

    For a second, Hazō imagined a post-Uplift generation, naturally all literate and with significant disposable income, flocking to the bookshops to learn how to plan like Ami. Was it too late to un-invent the printing press?

    "I still think the basic idea is solid, though," Hazō said. "We exploit an existing rift in society—in our case, between the High Priest's fanatics and the more moderate ninja who reject his brand of neotraditionalism—and then we rally our own faction in a way that doesn't allow the enemy to act against us directly. By the time the High Priest realises how much power we've stolen from him, it's too late for him to do anything about it without risking a civil war that would destroy the very village he wants to rule."

    "I can feel Ami grinning in anticipation all the way from the Human Path," Keiko said. "It is unnerving."

    "I'm thinking a slower build-up," Hazō said. "We'll still want you set up as a High Priest alternative—the Ami Manoeuvre needs a central rallying figure—but our alliances need to be in place before there's any chance of a confrontation. What do you think about joining Isan's patrols for some major chakra beast-clearing missions, the kind they'd hesitate to pull off on their own because they don't have functionally immortal pangolins to tank the hits? That's an easy way to gather allies without doing anything the High Priest can act against."

    "Seems reasonable," Keiko said. "Martial feats to establish a martial figure and placing oneself in harm's way to establish loyalty. A viable strategy—assuming, of course, that I survive."

    "Keiko, if the ninja of Isan are capable of living near these beasts, then you are capable of dominating them," Hazō said. "The other obvious pool of potential allies is the Isanese outcasts—people like Yuno, the enemies the High Priest has made for himself without any effort from us. She should be able to identify some promising leads for us there."

    "Perhaps," Keiko said sceptically. "Bear in mind that being a social outcast does not come in a single flavour. The cursed child may still be repellent to those who believe that only their treatment has been unjust."

    "In which case, screw them," Hazō said. He did not have a single drop of patience for those who knew the pain of discrimination and still turned around to do it to others. "But there must be someone. Or, even if there isn't, we have nothing to lose by trying. If anything, wouldn't it be strange to defy the High Priest in the name of protecting the downtrodden without actually trying to involve any of them?"

    "That is a perspective I had not considered," Keiko admitted.

    "One more thing," Hazō said. "You're right about the Gōketsu finances. We're not going to be pulling off any power moves with the empty air in our coffers. Do you think we should ask the Tower for resources?"

    "It is not standard practice," Keiko said. "Ordinarily, it would be a source of untold humiliation for a clan to require a handout from the Hokage because it could not cover unplanned expenses during a mission. Rather, one files a compensation request after completion, together with justification for why an unplanned expense great enough to involve the Tower was necessary to begin with. In our case, I suppose we must suffer that untold humiliation, in the form of a loan from the Tower. One hopes that when we bring the Hokage Isan on a plate, he will be kind enough not to scrutinise the means involved too closely."

    "I can't wait," Hazō muttered. "Thanks, Keiko. I think that's enough to work with, don't you? I'll let you go now.

    "Oh," he added suddenly, fishing out the scrolls, "would you mind taking these? I know it's a little awkward asking you to pass them along to Mari, but they're her birthday present."

    "Dare I ask?"

    "A portable bathtub and bubble bath seals. The culmination of years of daily training and research and the pinnacle of Gōketsu sealcrafting technology. If only I'd had these ready in time for the competition, I know Asuma would have given us an extra prize or two."

    Keiko took the scrolls. She did not laugh at the joke.

    She raised her hands as if to undo the reverse summoning, but at the last second, she hesitated.

    "I… I know I cannot continue like this, Hazō."

    "What do you mean?"

    She didn't meet his eyes.

    "Lashing out. Failing to cope. Hating myself."

    Hazō was instantly, totally alert. This was new.

    "You and the others tell me, constantly, that my self-perception is distorted. You claim that I am competent, that I hold inherent value, that I am worthy of love. And there are only so many times that I can dismiss those words as delusions, or white lies, or at worst, manipulation, before their sheer frequency, from varied sources, leads my inner Mori to demand that I weigh the data. But if she truly exists, this better Keiko, then I cannot find her. I cannot see her in the mirror. I cannot even imagine her, as a plausible being that merely happens not to be real, and that failure of imagination is chilling to someone who knows full well the feeling of a pathological mental block."

    Hazō nodded steadily, making it clear that he was listening, and doing absolutely nothing that would interrupt the flow and change Keiko's mind about volunteering information.

    "Yet to remain as I am is not an option. The Nara, crushed by trauma and loss that might not heal in decades, have placed their trust in me as Shikamaru's second. They require and deserve a leader who will support them in rediscovering their strength in the face of adversity. The KEI have placed their trust in me as a coordinator. They require and deserve a leader who will protect them and aid them in fulfilling their potential. It cannot only be Ami, to whom they are one component in a grander scheme, or Naruto, who would disband the organisation in an instant if he decided it was at odds with the village's welfare.

    "I cannot repay these people's trust as the miserable creature I believe myself to be.

    "Then, too, who will free Tenten from the all-too-familiar trap of social isolation if I do not? Who will help Shikamaru heal his wounds? Who will free Snowflake from the chains of fear and self-hatred she inherits from me every time she comes into being? Who will give a proper response to those whose love is sincere if misguided? Who, even, will unravel the mystery of what Shiori needs from me and give it to her?

    "It is futile to plead that I am unworthy of these roles. They are already mine. I cannot refuse them or abandon them. But the Keiko I believe in is incapable of helping anyone, of saving anyone, while the Keiko you believe in, the Keiko I need, is as invisible to me as one of Waterfall's Sakamoto."

    For a little while, there was silence. Hazō had no idea what to say.

    "Forgive me, Hazō," Keiko said finally. "That you were so patient with me today should not have been an excuse to trespass further on your time. Please convey my regards to Akane and the others."

    "What? No, that isn't why I was—"

    But of course, she was already gone.

    -o-​

    You have received 4 + 1 + 1 = 6 XP.

    -o-​

    What do you do?

    Voting closes on Saturday 15th of May, 1 p.m. New York time.
     
  • Threadmarks
    • It's just occurred to me that, since this is still the day after Keiko and Mari's confrontation, i.e. the same day as the last update, technically you should only be getting an evening's worth of XP. Tragically, I am going to forget about this as soon as I've made this post.
     
    Velorien said:
    "I can feel Ami grinning in anticipation all the way from the Human Path," Keiko said. "It is unnerving."
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    Ami (cheering): "He can learn!"

    Velorien said:
    She raised her hands as if to undo the reverse summoning, but at the last second, she hesitated.

    "I… I know I cannot continue like this, Hazō."

    "What do you mean?"

    She didn't meet his eyes.

    "Lashing out. Failing to cope. Hating myself."
    Click to expand...
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    This... Is good, I think. Keiko recognizes that she needs to change, or at least wants to change, for the better. And that desire (however rooted it might be in the welfare of another, rather than herself) is the first step to growing as a person.

    Luckily, her bloodline interacts with the Shadow Clone jutsu that she can't forcibly change herself via personality drift, the way Naruto tried to.
     
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