Voting is open
More information:
"How much more of Lord Jiraiya's work did you have?"

Hazō snorted. "Boxes and boxes of it. Some of it is thirty, forty years old, from when he was just starting out."

"Roughly how many boxes?"

Hazō thought about it. "Hard to say. It's all mixed in with other stuff—work papers, reference material, stories, that kind of stuff. Of the stuff that we've translated I'd say that maybe a fifth of all of it is seal-related; if that ratio keeps up then there's probably two or three hundred boxes about like this." He gestured with his hands, indicating an object roughly a foot on a side. "Not all of it is his work; some of it is from his students and mentors, or just random other stuff that he picked up from somewhere."
One cubic foot per box, 200-300 boxes of sealing notes, which are about a fifth of the total stockpile. That means there are about 1000-1500 cubic feet of sealing notes.

According to some rough calculations from google, you can fit roughly 1920-2400 pages in a box one cubic foot in size, which means an average of 2,700,000 pages to decode.
 
I think we should view the legal theory (with a few secretaries and law civilians/ninja) of whether Jiraiya granted us the political espionage stuff. And ask Mari whether we could convince people Jiraiya granted us that stuff. Then we could either keep copies, or push for those to count as contest submissions in addition to the spy network notes we've granted.

*eyes the killbox*
You know, we might as well put up a plaque with Hazou's name on it.

Can I inquire why you are so on board the citrus train?

It's not really the money --though it's certainly a factor. It's something that Hazou doesn't have to strictly do, himself. He can outsource it to a Team Uplift member (or someone else) while focusing on something else (sanitation, skyglider, salt stacks, mine spelunking, etc). It binds us closer to the older Leaf clans (Akimichi and Hyuuga) and lets some of their reputation rub off on the Goketsu... which is something we desperately need right now, since Hazou just spent some time in a killbox... again. And, according to Sasuke, very little of Leaf's who's who seems to buy the genjutsu excuse.

Further, it also helps to slowly introduce the idea that not all foreign things are bad (citrus not from an enemy village, more easily accepted). Not to mention that if we spread the citrus trade to Mist, it'll be yet another cord that binds the two countries together --and countries that trade regularly with each other are less inclined to go to war against each other.

The monetary gains would be nice, but it would somewhat less than what we'd make from seal sales or salt stacks. Yeah, it'd contribute to the Goketsu Coffers, but it's the social/political opportunities that I'm really interested in.

For me, because it's something that Hazō doesn't have to do himself. He can just pay for a few C rank missions to go down there and negotiate, then authorize the resulting trade deals. It can be completely off screened, but at the same time can give us contacts in a place that isn't Leaf or Mist, can make the Akimichi more friendly to Gōketsu and more interested in trade with people outside Leaf, and can also bring in a bit of revenue.

Also, I just really like the idea of citrus fruits because fruit is tasty and healthy, and if I was a citizen of Leaf I'd be super interested in a new luxury food like that.

Basically this, yeah ^.^
 
Last edited:
Google says that the average handwritten page contains about 300 words, which apparently translates to 1,800 letters, and that handwriting speed for copying text is a range from 26-113 letters per minute. If we assume that Kagome is at the upper end of that range due to his calligraphy skill (100 letters a minute, for simplicity) and that he can decode efficiently enough to not impair his writing speed, then he can decode a page every 18 minutes.

Thus, to decode 2,700,000 pages would take 810,000 hours of work. Expressed as 16h days, that's 50,625 days, or about 139 years.

Uh.

I think 2,700,000 may be an overestimate.
 
Google says that the average handwritten page contains about 300 words, which apparently translates to 1,800 letters, and that handwriting speed for copying text is a range from 26-113 letters per minute. If we assume that Kagome is at the upper end of that range due to his calligraphy skill (100 letters a minute, for simplicity) and that he can decode efficiently enough to not impair his writing speed, then he can decode a page every 18 minutes.

Thus, to decode 2,700,000 pages would take 810,000 hours of work. Expressed as 16h days, that's 50,625 days, or about 139 years.

Uh.

I think 2,700,000 may be an overestimate.
Behold the power of Shadow Clones!

It seems like Jiraiya had at least a few of them sticking around at all times just to write this mess down.
 
It's not really the money --though it's certainly a factor. It's something that Hazou doesn't have to strictly do, himself. He can outsource it to a Team Uplift member (or someone else) while focusing on something else (sanitation, skyglider, salt stacks, mine spelunking, etc). It binds us closer to the older Leaf clans (Akimichi and Hyuuga) and lets some of their reputation rub off on the Goketsu... which is something we desperately need right now, since Hazou just spent some time in a killbox... again. And, according to Sasuke, very little of Leaf's who's who seems to buy the genjutsu excuse.

Further, it also helps to slowly introduce the idea that not all foreign things are bad (citrus not from an enemy village, more easily accepted). Not to mention that if we spread the citrus trade to Mist, it'll be yet another cord that binds the two countries together --and countries that trade regularly with each other are less inclined to go to war against each other.

So as I understand it we wouldn't be seeing much tangible benefit from this trade. We would have to spend time and plan space preparing our minions to go on these mission. We would also expect QMs to constantly model things so we would get the vague positive benefits from it. All of this is something that the QMs have let us know that they don't enjoy this type of stuff. If all of these are true I don't see any real benefit to do this and an actual cost. So I'm gonna have to try to keep this from happening
 
Google says that the average handwritten page contains about 300 words, which apparently translates to 1,800 letters, and that handwriting speed for copying text is a range from 26-113 letters per minute. If we assume that Kagome is at the upper end of that range due to his calligraphy skill (100 letters a minute, for simplicity) and that he can decode efficiently enough to not impair his writing speed, then he can decode a page every 18 minutes.

Thus, to decode 2,700,000 pages would take 810,000 hours of work. Expressed as 16h days, that's 50,625 days, or about 139 years.

Uh.

I think 2,700,000 may be an overestimate.
And thus we've lost another Gouketsu to the same foe. Who would have guessed, back at the beginning, that the real Zabuza was paperwork?
 
PSA: This has now been signed off:

Everything in the "Political/espionage stuff" section [of Jiraiya's notes] went to Asuma and is no longer available to you. Basically, Mari said "Given our precarious position after you nearly got executed, we are not going to fuck around. Give him these things, don't keep copies, and don't try to recreate them. Do not give him any excuse to be angry with us until we've had time to win back some points."
 
So as I understand it we wouldn't be seeing much tangible benefit from this trade. We would have to spend time and plan space preparing our minions to go on these mission. We would also expect QMs to constantly model things so we would get the vague positive benefits from it. All of this is something that the QMs have let us know that they don't enjoy this type of stuff. If all of these are true I don't see any real benefit to do this and an actual cost. So I'm gonna have to try to keep this from happening
I think we would see a pretty big benefit. Other than the money, it allows us to begin setting up our own spy network. That's something we want to do anyway, and it gives the QMs an extra tool they can use to introduce plot hooks.

Eaglejarl wants to write punching? Our merchant network heard a rumor that makes us think a scroll may be in X area.

Ami has gone missing nin and wants to contact us? Our spies have received a coded message from her.

Akatsuki wants to get in touch again? They send a message through our network.

Stuff like that. This is just the start of our world spanning merchant spy network, but you have to start somewhere.
 
I was mostly thinking open source intelligence network, not a spy network which we don't know how to develop anyway.

Well, if we're S-rankers, we can afford to make mistakes and not die.
 
One cubic foot per box, 200-300 boxes of sealing notes, which are about a fifth of the total stockpile. That means there are about 1000-1500 cubic feet of sealing notes.

According to some rough calculations from google, you can fit roughly 1920-2400 pages in a box one cubic foot in size, which means an average of 2,700,000 pages to decode.
Might even be more, that conversation probably was subject to opsec?

Something something Kagome decoding literally forever. Unless J left us a secret key somewhere, I can't see how he expected us to ever utilize this...
 
Might even be more, that conversation probably was subject to opsec?

Something something Kagome decoding literally forever. Unless J left us a secret key somewhere, I can't see how he expected us to ever utilize this...
Note: this isn't the time it takes Kagome to decode the notes, it's the time it takes Kagome to write the decoded notes down. I'm already assuming the decoding time is zero and Kagome decodes faster than he writes.
 
This is just the start of our world spanning merchant spy network, but you have to start somewhere.

You know, now that you mention it, doesn't Mari have an important merchant guild authority in her pocket? We could leverage that with the citrus trade and get some of the more "frontline" merchants in our pockets. Once we get the trade deal down, we could see if there are any academy-dropouts serving as merchants (like that one filler episode about the runner kid) and allow them to use sealing scrolls to make the trips easier. Even if we end up using civilian merchants, we could still hire out guards to protect them and use the scrolls. Then we could offer additional incentive (money, GED-access, etc) if the merchants keep their ears open for rumors.
 
Last edited:
Decoding Info
So here's some crude assumptions to establish a baseline:

Let's assume that Jiraiya spent about 10% of his waking hours writing notes and stuff, except for Sealing notes which would probably include more writing.

We know that about 20% of his output is sealing notes, and if we assume that Sealing as an activity creates 3x as many notes for the time invested then Jiraiya spent about 6.7/86.7 of his time Sealing. In other words, averaged across J's life we can crudely assume 7.7% of his time is spent Sealing and 92.3% of his time is spent doing the many other things Jiraiya did.

I hear '40 years' tossed around so let's assume that's how long he's been doing things. 40 years is 233,600 waking hours (assuming 8h a night). Using the above numbers that's 17,969h doing Sealing and 215,631h doing other stuff.

Again, we assume 10% of his time is spent writing notes, except Sealing which is 30%. Thus we get 21,563h of note-writing from other things and 5,391h from Sealing, for 26,954h spent writing overall.

We can use this as a SAN check as-is, since the time spent to write it should be comparable to the time needed to decode it. This would suggest something on the order of 4.5 years to decode it all. Another way to take it would be to use the writing speed numbers described above (1,800 letters per page, 100 letters per minute) to conclude that Jiraiya wrote about 89,647 pages over his career, which would take (using same numbers) 26,954h (because same numbers), i.e. 4.5 years to decode it all.

These values are highly sensitive to things like 'how much of J's time did he actually spend writing things?' You can see that the 4.5 years pretty much maps to '10% of his career, plus some change from Sealing generating more notes'.

Another factor you could introduce is that Jiraiya might take more time to think up what to write, and thus write at a slower pace than can be decoded. This could easily reduce the number of pages by half or even more. A reverse factor could be shadow clones, if J made use of those to write more.

The main point, though, is that 90k pages is the rough upper limit of reasonable approximations of Jiraiya's lifelong output. The previously-estimated 2,700,000 pages does not fit with what Jiraiya could have reasonably written in his lifetime.

How does this jive with what Hazou said about the quantity of boxes left to us? Well, assuming Hazou was telling the truth about how many boxes there are (1000-1500), then they're only 3.3% as space-efficient as google says should be possible for modern paper. Factors that might contribute to this:
  • Thicker paper
  • Larger script (fewer letters per page)
  • Boxes not being completely full
  • Scrolls or books or other paper-containing objects bulkier than sheets of paper.
These can go a long way, but eyballing things I can't personally see them reaching less than 10-20% space-efficiency, so it might be worthwhile to decrease the total number of boxes to some degree. If we cut the total number of boxes by a factor of 5, reducing it to 200-300 boxes in total (of which 40-60 are Sealing (of which we gave 3/5 of the next box)) then the overall space efficiency rises to 16.7%, and the above factors could properly explain the discrepancy. Alternatively, if Hazou was bluffing about how many boxes there were, then that could also neatly solve the problem.

Edit: ROUND 2

After some (surprisingly unhelpful) conversations on Discord, I'm going to recalculate a little bit and try to establish a broader range of reasonable values.

It was mentioned that J's Spy Network work would likely involve a lot of writing, perhaps more than his Sealing work. Let's assume that, averaged across his entire ninja career, about 30% of Jiraiya's time was spent doing spymaster stuff. We now have a ratio of 7.7:30:62.3 between Sealing:Spymastery:Misc.

The useful information I did get from the conversation persuaded me that Jiraiya would have spent less time writing in his non-spymastery, non-Sealing day-to-day life. Not zero, because of things like his philosophical writings and Icha Icha, but maybe less than 10%. So let's ballpark 5% of the time for Misc., 30% of the time for Sealing, and, say, 40% of the time for Spymastery. Taking the same 40 years timeframe, that maths out to 5,396h of Sealing-writing, 28,032h of Spymastery-writing, and 7,277h of Misc. writing.

Now, let's add a discount to that. Writing is slow and 'writing time' isn't going to go as fast as you can copy text (which is the source of the numbers used above). My intuition says that for Misc. the discount should be large, as J is doing things like writing about philosophy and stuff, that the discount for Sealing should be middling-large, as it's technical work and putting already-brainstormed interactions and stuff down to paper, and that spymastery discount should be middling-small, as much of it is presumably managerial-style work that probably isn't as difficult on the text-generating-speed.

So, let's assume a discount of 80% for Misc., 60% for Sealing, and 40% for Spymastery. The numbers then turn into 2,158h for Sealing, 16,819h for spymastery, and 1,455h for Misc. (messes with the 1/5 sealing ratio but whatever). Now that these discounts have been applied, we can calculate about 68k pages in this version, which would take about 3.5 years to transcribe.

Given that discounts were not applied to the first estimate of 4.5 years, it can be assumed that the 4.5 years would likely become less than 3.5 years after discounts. I think it reasonable to estimate 3-3.5 years to properly transcribe everything. This does not account for time spent cracking codes, or any slowdown Kagome might experience in the decoding process (that is, it assumes that Kagome knows every key and can decode in his head without slowing down at all. This may be far or not far from the truth.)

Using the above calculations that Kagome has been working at this hobby-speed for 57 days and full-time for 40 days, if we assume Kagome's version of 'hobby speed' is 75% full-time speed, then we get about 83 full-length days of work on this, out of 1095-1278, meaning Kagome is about 7% done decoding, and that he has 1012-1195 days left until he is finished.

Given the large amount of spy network contributions in this model, Kagome could probably save a lot of time by only decoding until he knows that the notes in front of him are spy network notes, and then setting them aside alongside the cipher key so the Tower can decrypt them on their own. If so, we could apply another discount to the spy portion of the notes, say 75%, and reduce the total time needed to about 1.3 years (~489 days), of which he has completed 17% and has 406 days remaining.
 
Last edited:
Hrmmm... Asuma forbade offering any if Jiraiya's seals, but we do still have one of Orochimaru's...


Assume basic "sane person" rules here. We're not getting too deep in the weeds with details but Hazō isn't an idiot and didn't make any utterly bone-headed mistakes in the terms. There might be something he missed but it's not blatantly obvious.
Next update: "The Wakahisa have delivered 25 fish. They exclusively consist of thoroughly neutered elderly males..."
 
Last edited:
[x] (SimplifiedVoting): No

Sorry I'm late on this, but my laptop is broken so I'm on my phone. I haven't written/submitted to the Omake contest for the same reason, although I might do it on here anyways.

I would also like to warn the QMs about introducing the Darkness seals. As a somewhat seasoned 5e DM, the Darkness spell leads to all kinds of BS, cheese, and trickery, especially when you can use it basically for free via a seal. I look forward to getting it banned lol

Here are some of the thoughts I had about Darkness seals off the top of my head.

- Learn how to sort equipment blind
- Put braille-like stubs/tape/whatever on ends of seals to tell them apart in darkness
- Create new team maneuvers specifically for darkness, IE exit ASAP, burrow underground, form up, etc.
- Obtain summons that can easily fight with sound and smell alone, then stick darkness seals on them and they're virtually impossible to hit in packs. Unless the dome doesn't follow the seal, but honestly the summons would still be really useful.
- Learn genjutsu that complements the dark, such as will-o-wisp esque mind effects or sound-based genjutsu
- Place ambushes outside of darkness zones, or just throw large-radius explosives because it's not like they'll be able to dodge
- Use darkness to block line of sight for miles, don't even need to be inside the radius
- Toss a darkness kunai into enemy forces, immediately ruin formations
- Darkness absorbs all incoming light. Use darkness on the doors and windows and the interior of a house will be pitch black without actually being in a dome.
- Hang darkness seals upside down, cover enemy heads so they can't see but you can see where they are
- Kagome's defenses are already jounin-tier. Now you can't even see them (until you have to refresh the seals...) Good luck getting through that. Traps in general are just way better.
- The Nara could go absolutely crazy with this, same for Hyuga if they can see through it (they can see chakra so at the very least they should be able to see other ninja in it)
- Can keep bright techniques stealthy, especially at night. Combine with the sound canceling dome and you can practically set up anywhere.
- Makes AOE attacks exponentially better since enemies can only react by sound. This goes both ways, so the Goketsu need a countermeasure.
- Cucks Itachi's Mangekyo techniques since they require line of sight, same for all line of sight techniques
- Noburi Mist drain tells him where everyone is and makes it near impossible to approach him or attack him without huge AOE attacks


The best enemy counter to the darkness seal is almost always going to be trying to get out of it as soon as they can, since the Goketsu will be substantially more experienced fighting in it, so we'll need countermeasures for that too.
 
Last edited:
Using the above calculations that Kagome has been working at this hobby-speed for 57 days and full-time for 40 days, if we assume Kagome's version of 'hobby speed' is 75% full-time speed, then we get about 83 full-length days of work on this, out of 1095-1278, meaning Kagome is about 7% done decoding, and that he has 1012-1195 days left until he is finished.

Given the large amount of spy network contributions in this model, Kagome could probably save a lot of time by only decoding until he knows that the notes in front of him are spy network notes, and then setting them aside alongside the cipher key so the Tower can decrypt them on their own. If so, we could apply another discount to the spy portion of the notes, say 75%, and reduce the total time needed to about 1.3 years (~489 days), of which he has completed 17% and has 406 days remaining.
You know, this is actually great news for us: it's a prime opportunity to get Asuma's approval for teaching Kagome Shadow Clones. The alternative, after all, is to waste a year or more of a research sealmaster's time and to dramatically slow down the rebuilding of Leaf's spy network.

I'll vote for any reasonable plan that does this.
 
Last edited:
Has anybody brought up the exchange student program idea? It's non-threatening, builds intervillage relations, Noburi has a couple little sisters he'd like to see again, and we could use a couple more Wakahisa around.

That's before we even get to guest instructors Mori and Kurosaka.



I'll drink to that. More specifically, I'll offer a bounty on it.

Goal: Cause Jiraiya to once more be a recurring character in the canon timeline going forward.

Bounty: 1,000 XP, dropping by 2 XP every midnight UTC.

This is offered in good faith, so please don't try to rules lawyer -- omake, flashbacks, etc are not what we're looking for.

Note: I don't know that it's possible to collect on this bounty. There has been only a limited amount of work done behind the QM screen regarding the afterlife and what's possible in terms of resurrection. It may simply not be possible to bring someone back after they've been dead for more than a few hours.

Just found this. Is actual resurrection necessary, or just the chance to write a Jiraiya-agent affecting the world? Would communication with him in the afterlife or a simulation of sufficient fidelity (we have been told outright that this population currently has the knowledge and ability to create GAI, and we have a hell of a training corpus) work? Surely nothing could go interestingly wrong with feeding a lifetime of unsorted paranoid spywork and sealware into a prototype unsupervised godling?



Huh. I honestly hadn't thought about that possibility. This seems like something that would be common enough knowledge amongst the older ninja. We could ask... (*runs through mental list*) Uh... Huh. Is there an adult Leaf nin that we haven't antagonized?

Gai? I mean, it's not like we're going to stop with Jiraiya.

Plus, there's always Auntie and Uncle. Only minor missteps there, other than the whole, "threatened to burn down to bedrock your life's work to coerce your apprentice", thing.
 

Nice bit of in-character flavor there.

[x] (SimplifiedVoting): No

Sorry I'm late on this, but my laptop is broken so I'm on my phone. I haven't written/submitted to the Omake contest for the same reason, although I might do it on here anyways.

I would also like to warn the QMs about introducing the Darkness seals. As a somewhat seasoned 5e DM, the Darkness spell leads to all kinds of BS, cheese, and trickery, especially when you can use it basically for free via a seal. I look forward to getting it banned lol

Here are some of the thoughts I had about Darkness seals off the top of my head.

- Learn how to sort equipment blind
- Put braille-like stubs/tape/whatever on ends of seals to tell them apart in darkness
- Create new team maneuvers specifically for darkness, IE exit ASAP, burrow underground, form up, etc.
- Obtain summons that can easily fight with sound and smell alone, then stick darkness seals on them and they're virtually impossible to hit in packs. Unless the dome doesn't follow the seal, but honestly the summons would still be really useful.
- Learn genjutsu that complements the dark, such as will-o-wisp esque mind effects or sound-based genjutsu
- Place ambushes outside of darkness zones, or just throw large-radius explosives because it's not like they'll be able to dodge
- Use darkness to block line of sight for miles, don't even need to be inside the radius
- Toss a darkness kunai into enemy forces, immediately ruin formations
- Darkness absorbs all incoming light. Use darkness on the doors and windows and the interior of a house will be pitch black without actually being in a dome.
- Hang darkness seals upside down, cover enemy heads so they can't see but you can see where they are
- Kagome's defenses are already jounin-tier. Now you can't even see them (until you have to refresh the seals...) Good luck getting through that. Traps in general are just way better.
- The Nara could go absolutely crazy with this, same for Hyuga if they can see through it (they can see chakra so at the very least they should be able to see other ninja in it)
- Can keep bright techniques stealthy, especially at night. Combine with the sound canceling dome and you can practically set up anywhere.
- Makes AOE attacks exponentially better since enemies can only react by sound. This goes both ways, so the Goketsu need a countermeasure.
- Cucks Itachi's Mangekyo techniques since they require line of sight, same for all line of sight techniques
- Noburi Mist drain tells him where everyone is and makes it near impossible to approach him or attack him without huge AOE attacks


The best enemy counter to the darkness seal is almost always going to be trying to get out of it as soon as they can, since the Goketsu will be substantially more experienced fighting in it, so we'll need countermeasures for that too.

Plus, I do believe we've had Hazou practice with blind-fighting at least once already, so we aren't quite starting from scratch.
 
Substitution Seals: Two-element seal. Swap the positions and velocities of the objects the seal elements are attached to, so long as those objects are close enough, have LOS to one another, are below mass and volume limits, and are similar enough in mass.
...does activating one side activate the substitution?
 
Voting is open
Back
Top