Morality isn't decide by how well the victim is.
If i beat someone almost to death, and then pay him millions to be silent, it doesn't make what i did "good".
In what specific way are these children being victimized? As long as they're being raised in a loving environment and their material well-being is provided for, then I don't see the moral problem with this insofar as the kids are concerned. Is there some specific and special benefit that comes from being raised by your biological parents? I honestly don't know.
 
This reccuring comment type on the other hand I do not get. Men having sex with consenting women for the sole purpose of creating a child is a thing that gets done often enough in our own western society. How is this different? All we are is the biological father. And that doesn't mean more than what we make it mean, provided the children in question still end up with 2+ loving adults to raise them as their own.
It was less about Hazo getting whored out and more about not being told in advance about being whored out. This isn't a game plan, this was stuff she already made with the Uchiha.

Don't get me wrong, after thinking on it I'm all for the plan as long as Hazo is allowed to see his children. I just think the fact that Mari did it without first informing Hazo would and should anger him.
 
In what specific way are these children being victimized? As long as they're being raised in a loving environment and their material well-being is provided for, then I don't see the moral problem with this insofar as the kids are concerned. Is there some specific and special benefit that comes from being raised by your biological parents? I honestly don't know.

Agreed, this is like saying that all adopted children are abused by their parents by dint of not being their bio parents
 
In what specific way are these children being victimized? As long as they're being raised in a loving environment and their material well-being is provided for, then I don't see the moral problem with this insofar as the kids are concerned. Is there some specific and special benefit that comes from being raised by your biological parents? I honestly don't know.
Being adopted can weigh on an adopted child in emotional ways. There are reasons they often choose to seek their biological parents out, if only for curiosity. It's not nothing. It's a traditional and common belief in the real world that a child should be raised by their biological parents unless there's a persuasive reason they can't be, and the potential effect on the child is part of it.

On the father's side of things, the sperm donor thing is suited to some people psychologically and others it isn't. I suspect Hazou is too caring to be a good psychological fit.
 
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I wonder if the anti-Hiashi coalition clans would be willing to offer the Uchiha some non-bloodline ninja marrying in for their abstention on the hat? That would create the new generation of ninja the Uchiha needed.

While I'm thinking on the topic, there's something I would really like to ask the Uchiha. Why do they want the Iron Nerve so badly? I feel like maybe there's something they know that we don't. Like, maybe an Uchiha blooded civilian and Iron Nerve bloodline holder will reliably produce sharingan children, or something?
.....yes, ninjas with the IN bloodline have a chance to father children with the sharingan. This has been known since near the beginning. Either Mari confirmed it to the Uchiha or they already knew since a sharingan holder will know another sharingan holder just by looking at them. That's the whole reason they want Hazo's progeny to begin with. His bloodline is unironically more valuable to them than any random ninja that offers their sperm because it's far more likely to birth sharingan wielders.

That's the whole reason this is all happening dude
 
Awesome chapter. I love that the action plan still kinda happened in spite of the doom-spiking of doom.

Hazō had been nervous about offering the refugees such crude shelter, but the two hundred and sixteen aforementioned people (the remainder of the original crowd had managed to find lodgings they preferred over the home of a ninja) were delighted.

"Thank you, M'lord," one man said, touching his forelock and bowing deeply. "Thank you kindly. We were expecting to sleep cold tonight. Not sure the young 'un would have woken up." He gestured to the nearly-toddler cradled in the arms of the woman standing shyly behind him—presumably his wife.

Wait. Did we just have a major positive influence on the lives of people? Fuck yeah!

"So, old enough that he would have been making skywalkers?"

Oh. Whoopsies.



We would still be using children as political currency for a deal, children made just for that deal.
We would make them and use them,like money, without giving them a choice.
My joke about calling them "Ryo" is just half a joke, because that is how we're using them, and is intrisically immoral.

I feel like none of this matters.
What I would feel to be relevent most, is "do we expect the children to be happy or unhappy"
Children can be born into horrible circumstances without being born "as currency".
Children can be born "as currency" and be happy.

Fake Edit: Kinda got ninja'd on this



Either way, I personally feel that, to consider the deal, Hazou should at least talk it over with a bunch of people. Noburi for example. Also maybe the actual girls in question, cuz they might not be as "willing" as portrayed.
 
Being adopted can weigh on an adopted child in emotional ways. There are reasons they often choose to seek their biological parents out, if only for curiosity. It's not nothing. It's a traditional and common belief in the real world that a child should be raised by their biological parents unless there's a persuasive reason they can't be, and the potential effect on the child is part of it.

Could this not be solved or mitigated through adoption rights, and if not why?
 
Word Count: 299

[X] Action Plan: Deals and Discussions
Timeline: Immediately after Chapter 271.
  • Mari:
    • Thank her for her help.
    • Discuss the Hagoromo & Uchiha deals.
      • Uchiha deal:
        • What's the fallout from our Leaf allies/Mist?
        • We have possible changes: How willing are the Uchiha to budge? What will it cost?
          1. An out for the girls that stop giving consent.
          2. An active role in raising the kids.
          3. More spaced-out pregnancies, for the girls' safety.
          4. Some way to keep IN in the Gouketsu.
      • We tentatively agree, but want to hear the clan's thoughts.
  • Fill Akane in on land-clearing, as per our note.
    • Include discussion on finding buyers; ways to improve the land, like irrigation; as well as possible profits, like from chakra monster parts and lumber.
    • Ask her to offer Tsunade ~25% profit if she'll help with legal/political problems.
  • Check in on the refugees tomorrow. Make a show of friendliness and empathy.
    • Learn more about the refugees. Consider adopting/minionizing those with political connections or useful skills like carpentry.
  • Check the casualty list for people we know, like Honoka.
  • Invite Shikamaru to breakfast later this week.
    • Subject: Nara Rebuilding/Construction Assistance
  • Invite Team Nakano (and Jinno) over for lunch.
    • Ask them to bring some honeyed apples for Kagome; he'd love them.
    • Continue discussion of funding till-n-fills they take.
    • Carefully offer to put them 'on retainer': We'd pay them in seals, jutsu, teaching, etc.; they'd be on-call to supply manpower for running errands, talking to people, or other stuff.
    • Let Kagome bring up Sealing teaching; he'd be their teacher, after all.
  • Afternoon clan meeting (high-security room):
    • Discuss working with the Yakuza.
      • Sell them ice/salt, or promise assistance against their rivals.
      • Should we work with Leaf's xor Mist's Yakuza?
    • Discuss the Uchiha & Hagoromo deals.
  • Continue scribing Skywalkers in our spare time.
  • Contingency: If encountering Ami, spend the favour as discussed.
 
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.....yes, ninjas with the IN bloodline have a chance to father children with the sharingan. This has been known since near the beginning. Either Mari confirmed it to the Uchiha or they already knew since a sharingan holder will know another sharingan holder just by looking at them. That's the whole reason they want Hazo's progeny to begin with. His bloodline is unironically more valuable to them than any random ninja that offers their sperm because it's far more likely to birth sharingan wielders.

That's the whole reason this is all happening dude
I feel like you skimmed and missed my point?

Yes, Iron Nerve + anyone has a chance of producing a non-inheritable sharingan. This we know.

Some or all Uchiha civilians presumably have a recessive gene for the sharingan. What happens if you breed one of them with an Iron Nerve holder?

Maybe they want the Iron Nerve because they know from ancient history that it reliably turns into sharingan holders that breed true. It could have happened at some point in ancient history that an IN holder married in and they discovered that way and passed the knowledge down in secret.
 
We can certainly ask the women if they consent. But realistically, even if they did not, would they say anything to us about it? On top of the whole 'Civilians don't say 'no' to ninja' issue, if they do say no, where do they go from there? They certainly wouldn't be safe back in the Uchiha clanhold after making their elders lose face like that.
 
Morality isn't decide by how well the victim is.
Ah, so you're not a consequentialist. I suppose that answers my question.

Still:
If i beat someone almost to death, and then pay him millions to be silent, it doesn't make what i did "good".
False equivalence. I'm arguing that creating children for impersonal reasons, as long as they're not going to live a life of misery, isn't immoral in and of itself — from my perspective the "beat someone almost to death" part doesn't exist. Like, the opposite: more happy sentient creatures is ultimately a good thing, no?

I would not find it upsetting were I in their place, either.

Also, how are you suggesting we give unborn children a choice? It's impossible to consent to being brought into existence.
Do you remember Keiko discussion about children being born to be use of their parents?
Is it a bad time to mention that I think she had a point?
That said, to make this ethical, each member of our harem should have the right to leave it and/or get adopted back into the Uchiha whenever they so desire. Give the Uchiha the right to make us adopt a replacement if necessary, but forcing a woman to become pregnant 5 times without her being enthusiastically in favor of the idea is, among other horrible things, rape.
Now this is something I fully agree with.
 
We can certainly ask the women if they consent. But realistically, even if they did not, would they say anything to us about it? On top of the whole 'Civilians don't say 'no' to ninja' issue, if they do say no, where do they go from there? They certainly wouldn't be safe back in the Uchiha clanhold after making their elders lose face like that.
Well we have 3+ years to figure it out
 
@faflec

Re: The Uchiha deal, we should talk about verifying the girls are really and truly consenting and that they have an out in case they change their mind later on (being adopted back into Uchiha and/or staying as Gotseku with us getting an additional woman who would like to have kids). Also, it might be a good idea to make sure that the girls are intelligent and/or skilled enough to contribute to the clan.
 
[X] Action Plan: Deals and Discussions

They certainly wouldn't be safe back in the Uchiha clanhold after making their elders lose face like that.

We tell the Uchiha that we don't like this one, she isn't pretty enough or whatever, and we want another one. It's not like we'll lose much face for acting like a brat, so if bratting it up will help, then brat it up we shall.
 
How do you feel about paid surrogacy or sperm/egg donation in the real world?

This would be the ideal scenario. The problem is, the kid gets moved around depending on what powers they develop.

Hmm... We could tweak the deal. The kid and their parents move back to the Uchiha? So all nuclear families stay the same, sometimes families change clans, and Hazou is a sperm donor.

Hazou is going to need a therapist. And we need a way for this to not get the entire thread banned from orbit.
 
@faflec

Re: The Uchiha deal, we should talk about verifying the girls are really and truly consenting and that they have an out in case they change their mind later on (being adopted back into Uchiha and/or staying as Gotseku with us getting an additional woman who would like to have kids). Also, it might be a good idea to make sure that the girls are intelligent and/or skilled enough to contribute to the clan.
Done.

Word Count: 224

[X] Action Plan: Deals and Discussions
Timeline: Immediately after Chapter 271.
  • Discuss the Hagoromo & Uchiha deals with Mari.
    • Uchiha deal:
      • We want visitation rights for the kids, and want to make sure the girls can give continual consent (and give them an out if they stop). We're also concerned about losing IN to the Uchiha. How willing are the Uchiha to budge on this, and what will it cost us?
    • Otherwise, the deals are acceptable. Let's make sure we all keep things quiet so Hiashi doesn't spring a counteroffer on us.
  • Check in on the refugees tomorrow. Make a show of friendliness and empathy.
    • Under the guise of helping them recover, learn more about them. Consider adopting/minionizing those with useful occupations or political connections.
  • Invite Team Nakano (and Jinno) over for lunch.
    • Continue discussion of funding till-n-fills they take.
    • Carefully offer to put them 'on retainer': We'd pay them in seals, jutsu, teaching..., and they'd supply manpower for running errands, talking to people, or other stuff when we need it.
    • Let Kagome bring up teaching them Sealing. He'd be the teacher, after all.
  • Afternoon clan meeting (high-security room):
    • Discuss working with the Yakuza.
      • We could sell them ice/salt, or promise assistance against their rivals.
      • Should we work with Leaf's xor Mist's Yakuza?
  • Continue scribing Skywalkers in our spare time.
 
I'm not sure what the big deal about that is when it's just a watered down mutation of the sharingan, a bloodline ability far more broken than ours.
We don't know how many of the special IN advantages are also present in the Sharingan. And we won't know until such day that the Uchiha and the Gokētsu are basically one entity.
Could we get the Uchiha onboard with our vision of the future, and the profit we can both make from it while we save the world?
Very probably not right now where it is relevant to the deal. But in a few decades the Uchiha will definitely have a very open ear to whatever we have to say.
Morality isn't decide by how well the victim is.
If i beat someone almost to death, and then pay him millions to be silent, it doesn't make what i did "good".
Well of course not. You still did harm to someone who didn't consent first. A good action doesn't erase a bad one.
I don't see how this is a bad action in the first place though.
Oh,and let' s add emotional manipulation to the mix, because it's normal to treat our children well
It is normal. The two-way loyalty is just a side effect of that.
Point of order, there's no such thing as intrinsic morality. Or at least, we can't seem to find any hint of it. Look up blue orange morality if you want an example why.

This is a ninja deathworld. If we stick to shonen ideals and present day morals we will die a sad, insignificant death. Burn squads will still silently kill villages, and mankind will slowly dwindle.
I disagree with the idea that morality is completely relative. That said I don't see a clear moral issue here, as long as we make sure nobody gets raped and no children get raised emotionally neglected.
It was less about Hazo getting whored out and more about not being told in advance about being whored out. This isn't a game plan, this was stuff she already made with the Uchiha.
She discussed it with the Uchiha. Unpleasant for sure. Not final. Not unforgivable. I'd even say we can let it slide, given the circumstances.
 
Word Count: 203

[X] Action Plan: Deals and Discussions
Timeline: Immediately after Chapter 271.
  • Discuss the Hagoromo & Uchiha deals with Mari.
    • Uchiha deal:
      • We want visitation rights for our kids, and are concerned about losing IN to the Uchiha. How willing are the Uchiha to budge, and what will it cost us?
    • Otherwise, the deals are acceptable. Let's make sure we all keep things quiet so Hiashi doesn't spring a counteroffer on us.
  • Check in on the refugees tomorrow. Make a show of friendliness and empathy.
    • Under the guise of helping them recover, learn more about them. Consider adopting/minionizing those with useful occupations or political connections.
  • Invite Team Nakano (and Jinno) over for lunch.
    • Continue discussion of funding till-n-fills they take.
    • Carefully offer to put them 'on retainer': We'd pay them in seals, jutsu, teaching..., and they'd supply manpower for running errands, talking to people, or other stuff when we need it.
    • Let Kagome bring up teaching them Sealing. He'd be the teacher, after all.
  • Afternoon clan meeting (high-security room):
    • Discuss working with the Yakuza.
      • We could sell them ice/salt, or promise assistance against their rivals.
      • Should we work with Leaf's xor Mist's Yakuza?
  • Continue scribing Skywalkers in our spare time.

This is pretty good. I wince at handing over kids at all for the effect it might have on Hazou, but if we do it I like your approach.

For land clearing, I have suggestions in my plan I'd be all for having you steal. Check the legalities, see if Naruto is willing to help because clones + rasengan would be perfect for the job, figure out if we can do it without an unsustainable number of seals per acre, and maybe look into paper making since macerators would be good for it and there's a hole in high end paper market now. (And given how much sealing paper we must go through, it'd probably be a considerable savings making our own in the long run.) Look into designs for irrigation we can make quickly with MEW and digging to increase the land's value by a lot. Also figure out if we'll be able to actually find buyers and what they'll be willing to pay, which may be much less than the land is nominally worth depending on economic conditions.

Do you want to consult Keiko privately about our concerns with Mari? The frozen skein could take our observations and give us a better idea of what's going on.
 
So, we have the Force Saw work out with no significant complications, the land-clearing rollout goes off without a hitch, we've apparently gotten the salt refinery working and income from it on the way (and all the research here was offscreen)...
And then we end up with a harem.
Yeah.
[X] Roll to disbelieve.
 
So, we have the Force Saw work out with no significant complications, the land-clearing rollout goes off without a hitch, we've apparently gotten the salt refinery working and income from it on the way (and all the research here was offscreen)...
And then we end up with a harem.
Yeah.
[X] Roll to disbelieve.
The salt refinery is set up? Did I miss that part? I thought Hazou was just talking about the possibility, that it hadn't been done yet.
 
[X] Action Plan: Deals and Discussions



We tell the Uchiha that we don't like this one, she isn't pretty enough or whatever, and we want another one. It's not like we'll lose much face for acting like a brat, so if bratting it up will help, then brat it up we shall.

That is indeed something we could do. But, from the perspective of the woman we ask, do any promises we make change her decision? She has no way of knowing if we're sincere about them, or if its a loyalty test.

I just don't see a scenario short of the girl breaking down into uncontrollable sobbing where we get anything but a 'yes' out of asking that question, regardless of her true feelings. We can still ask, because it's costless to us and will make Hazo feel a bit better. It's just not going to actually prevent any rape.
 
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