Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

[Oneiros]

I expect it's swept of monsters regularly to keep all of that economic activity going

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This is definitely not true

 

[Kiba]

It's unclear what you mean. Are you trying to say they wouldn't own undeveloped land, or that the undeveloped land they had wouldn't be used, or something else?

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Most of the land that they would "theoretically" own is probably not going to be cleared of monsters. They won't have enough money and there aren't enough ninja in the world, especially when you considered that we only have 1,500 ninja that must do everything from ninja escort, monster hunting, border patrol, spying, logistics and bureaucracy, etc.

Those lands are not economically productive. They are actively harmful.

 

[TaliesinSkye]

This is definitely not true

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Most of the land that they would "theoretically" own is probably not going to be cleared of monsters. They won't have enough money and there aren't enough ninja in the world, especially when you considered that we only have 1,500 ninja that must do everything from ninja escort, monster hunting, border patrol, spying, logistics and bureaucracy, etc.

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I think you two are imagining low population areas, like the villages team Uplift stopped in to help while missing. Sure, those places aren't organized enough or populated enough to handle clearing monsters themselves, and they don't have the money it takes to hire ninja even if there were any ninja within a week's travel, which there probably aren't. So people gather what they need from the woods and take the risk that they get killed doing it, shivering in all but the worst nights to minimize the fuel they use to reduce the amount they need to collect and just barely scrape by.

A densely populated area, though? The Fire Country equivalents of London or Paris or Kyoto? Those places have military forces and money and enormous demand for wood and all the other things that forests produce. Woods within several days' travel of those places will be extensively used and kept reasonably safe because if they're not kept safe then all the economic value their owners can extract out of their use goes to waste. It'd be like owning prime farmland and leaving it to go fallow.

 

[Kiba]

I think you two are imagining low population areas, like the villages team Uplift stopped in to help while missing. Sure, those places aren't organized enough or populated enough to handle clearing monsters themselves, and they don't have the money it takes to hire ninja even if there were any ninja within a week's travel, which there probably aren't. So people gather what they need from the woods and take the risk that they get killed doing it, shivering in all but the worst nights to minimize the fuel they use to reduce the amount they need to collect and just barely scrape by.

A densely populated area, though? The Fire Country equivalents of London or Paris or Kyoto? Those places have military forces and money and enormous demand for wood and all the other things that forests produce. Woods within several days' travel of those places will be extensively used and kept reasonably safe because if they're not kept safe then all the economic value their owners can extract out of their use goes to waste. It'd be like owning prime farmland and leaving it to go fallow.

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30,000 people, most of which is enclosed and supplied by urban farmers and a literal forest of death, is not really Paris, London, or Kyoto.

 

[TaliesinSkye]

30,000 people, most of which is enclosed and supplied by urban farmers and a literal forest of death, is not really Paris, London, or Kyoto.

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That's Leaf, apparently people were thinking about the other cities in Fire Country.

Leaf was always going to be atypical for this because of the ninja population anyway. It's relatively trivial for them to keep areas cleared compared to other polities.

 

[Kiba]

We are getting off tracked with the argument.

I doubt that nobility cares that much about chakra monster infested lands. Medieval Japan is not a catch all context for medieval era Elemental Nations, which will work similarly to Japan most of the time...but not all the time.

 

[Byzantine]

That's Leaf, apparently people were thinking about the other cities in Fire Country.

Leaf was always going to be atypical for this because of the ninja population anyway. It's relatively trivial for them to keep areas cleared compared to other polities.

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The mistake you are making is assuming there are major cities, etc. There aren't. This is a medieval world that is actively dying, there really aren't that many strongholds for humanity, and those there are are rather small and even just outside their walls is only swept often enough to prevent mass outbreaks of chakra beasts.

 

[TaliesinSkye]

We are getting off tracked with the argument.

I doubt that nobility cares that much about chakra monster infested lands. Medieval Japan is not a catch all context for medieval Elemental Nations, which will work similarly to Japan most of the time...but not all the time.

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The topic is important because it makes for a difficult dilemma.

Out in the low population areas there will be monster infested land owned by nobility that isn't being used and the nobility might be willing to sell it if they aren't opposed to selling on principle. (Which they might well be.) But if you clear the land there it still won't be worth much because there aren't many people who will want to live out there. You'd be selling to farmers.

Close to high population areas you'll be able to sell cleared land for a lot, but there will be precious little unused monster invested land around because if there was then the dense populations would be freezing to death in the winter for lack of firewood. So I suspect you'll have trouble finding land to buy.

All of this subject, of course, to the thinking of QMs and their economic model on where people get firewood from and what implications that has on monster clearance rates and land ownership customs.

 

[Cariyaga]

The topic is important because it makes for a difficult dilemma.

Out in the low population areas there will be monster infested land owned by nobility that isn't being used and the nobility might be willing to sell it if they aren't opposed to selling on principle. (Which they might well be.) But if you clear the land there it still won't be worth much because there aren't many people who will want to live out there. You'd be selling to farmers.

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...Yes. That's the point. A kilometer of land produces ~23 million Ryo a year if farmed.

 

[Oneiros]

Out in the low population areas there will be monster infested land owned by nobility that isn't being used and the nobility might be willing to sell it if they aren't opposed to selling on principle

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Nobility have zero authority. As clan ninja we are the top of the power structure. Being a clan head we are basically royalty. Where as nobility are glorified tax collectors.

 

[eaglejarl]

Those places have military forces

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Unfortunately, no. One of the many, many ways in which the MfD world sucks is that ninja have been adamant about maintaining a monopoly on force. There are no civilian military forces or combat schools. In fact, I'm reasonably sure that civilians aren't even supposed to own military-style weapons like swords. I'd need to check that part.

That's Leaf, apparently people were thinking about the other cities in Fire Country.

Leaf was always going to be atypical for this because of the ninja population anyway. It's relatively trivial for them to keep areas cleared compared to other polities.

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Leaf is by far the largest city in Fire. It contains half of all urbanites in the country.

 

[Kiba]

Close to high population areas you'll be able to sell cleared land for a lot, but there will be precious little unused monster invested land around because if there was then the dense populations would be freezing to death in the winter for lack of firewood. So I suspect you'll have trouble finding land to buy.

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Textual evidence doesn't suggest endless miles of farmlands near Konoha.

Or rather, Konoha IS the endless farmlands.

 

[hYGP]

Unfortunately, no. One of the many, many ways in which the MfD world sucks is that ninja have been adamant about maintaining a monopoly on force. There are no civilian military forces or combat schools. In fact, I'm reasonably sure that civilians aren't even supposed to own military-style weapons like swords. I'd need to check that part.


Leaf is by far the largest city in Fire. It contains half of all urbanites in the country.

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Adds another reform to the pile

 

[TaliesinSkye]

The mistake you are making is assuming there are major cities, etc. There aren't. This is a medieval world that is actively dying, there really aren't that many strongholds for humanity, and those there are are rather small and even just outside their walls is only swept often enough to prevent mass outbreaks of chakra beasts.

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There are absolutely major settlements. They've got names and everything. Are they comparable to the greatest cities of the medieval era? I haven't seen demographic information for them here, but it doesn't really matter.

The reason is that the major difference between a settlement with 1,000 or 1,000,000 for the purposes of this discussion is going to be in how far out the woodlands are managed and used. The smaller the settlement the smaller that radius is going to be as a result of people only clearing what they need to clear to keep the demand for firewood fed. That demand is fairly inflexible; firewood is an absolute necessity for living in the period. They needed it to keep alive in the winter unless they were somewhere very temperate, they needed it to cook food wherever in the world they were, and they needed it to make charcoal so they could make iron tools.

Coal and peat were viable substitutes to wood, but peat wouldn't be any better for avoiding the monster problem. Coal is perhaps a possibility in lucky areas where large seams were available on the surface. I'm not sure whether mining it would be any less laborious, expensive, or dangerous than clearing the monsters, though.

...Yes. That's the point. A kilometer of land produces ~23 million Ryo a year if farmed.

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Is that figure profit, or gross? Remember that farming was astonishingly inefficient. Greater than 90% of what farmers produced was needed just to to sustain the farmers.

Nobility have zero authority. As clan ninja we are the top of the power structure. Being a clan head we are basically royalty. Where as nobility are glorified tax collectors.

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They pay taxes to the Daimyo, who pays taxes to the Hokage. There's nothing in there that gives a ninja a right to order around any random landed noble. I suspect the Tower doesn't want ninja going around threatening nobility to get their way because it makes problems for the Daimyo and they want to keep him in charge and loyal to the Tower. The Tower does not want to have to put down uprisings of discontented nobility who're fed up with being abused by any random ninja that comes along.

In any case, the nobility are unlikely to think of themselves as glorified tax collectors inferior to every 12 year old genin that might come along. They'll think of themselves as proud nobility, and why should they take orders from anyone who isn't the feudal lord they owe their fealty to?

Unfortunately, no. One of the many, many ways in which the MfD world sucks is that ninja have been adamant about maintaining a monopoly on force. There are no civilian military forces or combat schools. In fact, I'm reasonably sure that civilians aren't even supposed to own military-style weapons like swords. I'd need to check that part.

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Ah, you're going by the samurai model, I see now. Although I'm not quite sure how to envision parts of it because the samurai were the nobility. They handled their own policing and keeping the peasants in line and patrolling the roads for bandits and so on with their own armed forces. How do the nobility handle all of that? I doubt it would be practical to hire ninja on an ongoing basis for everyday stuff like patrolling the streets and dealing with drunks. I'd expect hiring a ninja to be something a noble does occasionally when there's a particular problem to be dealt with. Go sweep that forest of monsters because it's getting dangerous again, go kill the bandits that keep waylaying travelers on that road, that sort of thing.

I could see nobility being permitted limited numbers of household troops for those duties, the numbers kept low enough to ensure they aren't anything like a threat. Or the people they hire being permitted certain limited weapons, like police forces armed with cudgels which were fairly common in period in all sorts of places. People would need some sort of means of self protection from monsters, perhaps spears. I could definitely see a ban on armor, that's a dedicated military thing, although maybe it'd be useful against monsters as well.

Although really any arms and armor aren't going to be terribly effective at stopping ninja so I'm not sure they need to bother. It's not like it was the samurai, armed peasants were a genuine threat to them so keeping the peasants incapable of rebelling was worth the effort.

Leaf is by far the largest city in Fire. It contains half of all urbanites in the country.

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Good to know. Sounds like the other large settlements probably cap out at 10,000 or so then. I should do some more research on medieval settlements of similar size.

That's actually enough information to make a ballpark estimate of the total population including the rural and therefore the percentage of the population that are ninja, which is interesting.

 

[Cariyaga]

Is that figure profit, or gross? Remember that farming was astonishingly inefficient. Greater than 90% of what farmers produced was needed just to to sustain the farmers.

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Land is exceptionally (supernaturally, even) fertile in Fire, as far as I know.

 

[TaliesinSkye]

Huh, interesting trivia - the word Daimyo literally means 'large private land'. Looks like personal land ownership was just as foundational to them as it was to European nobility. I wasn't sure, I'm mostly read up on the European system.

Land is exceptionally (supernaturally, even) fertile in Fire, as far as I know.

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Any idea how much? That'll mess with economic models a lot. Things like the number of farmers needed to maintain one specialist are really important to building a picture of medieval life in an area.

 

[Oneiros]

In any case, the nobility are unlikely to think of themselves as glorified tax collectors inferior to every 12 year old genin that might come along. They'll think of themselves as proud nobility, and why should they take orders from anyone who isn't the feudal lord they owe their fealty to?

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We are in charge. You should read this

Worldbuilding infodump time! The following are basic assumptions that underpin all the economics and politics discussion.

The world of MfD is not the modern Western world.
​

That sounds simple, but it's not. Multiple times over the years that this quest has been running, we've seen statements like "Any nation that used its ninja for agriculture would outcompete all others", with the clear implication that "and therefore all nations must be using their ninja for agriculture or they aren't rational." Those statements are built on assumptions that simply don't apply.

We acknowledge that the following is oversimplified and offering too much credit, but: 21st-century civilization recognizes that all humans are people, that they all have equal human rights, that everyone is equally capable both physically and intellectually1​, that rising tides lift all boats, and that science is the path to advancement2​.

None of those statements apply in the Elemental Nations.

Think about the exceptions to the above description of 21st-century civilization...actually, no. Let's choose a less politically/religiously charged example. Imagine the American South in 1850; they would have been better off had they freed all the slaves, educated them, and slotted them into the work force as entrepreneurs and skilled workers. Did that happen? No. Was the idea, in that time and place, considered utterly laughable? Yes.

MfD is similar to but worse than the antebellum South, because the division is not based on something as comparatively minor as skin color, it's based on the fact that 0.5% of the population is literally superhuman. Depending on where you are, the attitude towards civilians varies between "beasts of burden that can be trained to talk" to "second-class citizens at best".3​ Fire in general is one of the best MfD places to be a civilian and Leaf in particular is probably the best of that, mostly because Hashirama was smart enough to create the Merchant Council and then personally and ruthlessly enforce their safety until their acceptance became part of the local culture. This likely has much to do with why Leaf is one of the most prosperous nations in the EN.

This moderately enlightened view towards civilians is extremely new; Leaf was founded in the year 1000 and the current year (as of Chapter 267) is 1069. All of the other villages are even younger. Before the Village Era, civilians had no rights and no respect whatsoever from ninja. They were effectively walking lootboxes for ninja to cash in whenever it was convenient.

Consider what has been shown onscreen in highly enlightened Leaf: Civilians matter-of-factly telling stories about physical abuse by ninja. Jiraiya admitting that it happens and usually isn't reported. A civilian detention monitor being sincerely convinced that Kagome was going to kill her, and utterly unsurprised that such a thing was happening. Civilians bowing and scraping whenever it's even possible that they might maybe somehow have offered a tiny bit of offense to a ninja. Civilians walking wide around a ninja in the streets. Hana being utterly dumbfounded at the idea that Hazō might want to help civilians. The fact that till'n'fills are a brand-new invention that people consider ridiculous and vaguely embarrassing.

That's just the social attitudes. Science effectively doesn't exist. Yes, sealmasters research seals and Kabuto researches biology, but they are wildly out of step with the general population, and even then their research isn't that similar to what we consider the norm in the real world. (e.g., the idea of double-blind randomized trials is nowhere to be found.)

Democracy does not exist in any meaningful sense. Every nation is a military dictatorship, de facto or de iure. The disproportionate power wielded by certain individuals distorts everything; Jiraiya could take the leadership of the most powerful nation in the world simply by saying "Do what I want or I'll kill you."4​

When you do societal, economic, or political analysis on the world of MfD, your modern cultural intuitions will not serve you.

Now, is it true that the first nation to heavily emphasize infrastructure-related ninja missions is going to win the everything? Probably, as long as there aren't any civilization-ending wars, chakra-enabled plagues, etc. That does not mean that anyone in-universe recognizes that fact. If you still find that unbelievable, ask yourself this: Why are the real-world developed nations not throwing money at space development and nuclear power? NASA has been a 7:1 profit center for the USA, so why are they on a shoestring budget? Nuclear power is safer and more efficient than fossil fuels, so why didn't it become the norm decades ago? Thorium reactors generate less waste off of more available fuel than uranium reactors, so why are uranium reactors the standard?5​ Jimmy Carter put solar panels on the roof of the White House in 1979; why isn't the USA running a nigh-100% renewable-energy economy?

Bigotry. Cultural blinders. Unexamined presuppositions. Powerful interests that enjoy the status quo and don't want it changed. Politicians who work for their donors instead of their constituents.

The next time you feel the need to say "But it doesn't make sense! They would be better off if they just <thing that is obvious to 21st-century people>!", please ask yourself if the problem can be explained by one of the above causes. If you think the answer is no, go back and check your analysis, because almost certainly the answer is yes.

Now for the good news: The societies of MfD are ripe for disruption. If the Gōketsu can manage to survive for another decade and if Hazō can remain influential in their decision-making then you can most likely transform the world. The first step in that, however, is for the hivemind to accept that the Elemental Nations are not the same as the modern world and that, although the actors within it are rational by their own lights, they do not share your definition of what 'rational' means.

The final objection that you might have: "But I don't agree that the world would be like this!" The reply: "We do." The QMs, after a lot of discussion and debate, have reluctantly convinced ourselves that the world of MfD works on these assumptions. The assumptions aren't up for debate, so you'll simply need to accept them as axioms if you can't agree with them. If that destroys your suspension of disbelief and ruins your enjoyment of the quest...well, there's a lot of other quests out there, and hopefully you will find something you enjoy more. Again, the assumptions are not up for debate.

---

Spoiler: footnotes

[1] Yes, not everyone is actually equal -- people vary by strength, intellect, etc etc. Please focus on the general point.
[2] Yes, 38% of Americans believe that the Earth was created in 6 days approximately 6,000 years ago and will fight tooth and nail to deny climate science, evolutionary biology, and anything else that might threaten the teachings of their Iron-Age book. Again, please focus on the general point.
[3] The QMs have not been as good about depicting this anti-civilian attitude as we perhaps should have been, but that is how the world is supposed to be.
[4] Granted, there are limits to how feasible it is to rule based purely on personal combat power. Jiraiya could probably have taken the hat, but he could not have kept it in the long term without the support of the clans. There needs to be some consent of the governed in order for a society to work, even if that "consent" is limited to "not actively rebelling".
[5] Because the USA wanted plutonium for nuclear weapons, and you get that from uranium reactors, not thorium reactors.

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[TaliesinSkye]

We are in charge. You should read this

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Thanks, I have read it before though. It mostly warns against comparisons involving concepts from the modern world rather than comparisons to the real past at a similar state of societal development and doesn't really clarify the relations between ninja and nobility at all. It absolutely doesn't give any indication that ninja can just order nobility around without repercussions.

It doesn't say they can't either, of course, so until the QMs say something or we see something on screen we're all just making educated guesses.

I've already laid our why it would make good sense for the Tower to have a policy against ninja pissing off the nobility unnecessarily by treating them just like ninja treat peasants.

 

[Oneiros]

hanks, I have read it before though. It mostly warns against comparisons involving concepts from the modern world rather than comparisons to the real past at a similar state of societal development and doesn't really clarify the relations between ninja and nobility at all. It absolutely doesn't give any indication that ninja can just order nobility around without repercussions.

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Might want to read it again if you are missing the point

 

[TaliesinSkye]

Might want to read it again if you are missing the point

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I did before my last post, just to make sure I wasn't missing anything. It does help when making an argument to be a little more specific when citing something than just wave a whole document at someone and go 'read this'. At this point I can only guess at what you might possibly be thinking your point is.

The best argument I can think to make from your point of view would be the whole 'non-ninja are at best second class citizens and at worst beasts' bit, but there are persuasive arguments for that being written with regular civilians in mind and not the rare civilians with wealth and formal titles. Interpreting information that's true about the general case to specific cases can get you in trouble.

 

[Oneiros]

I did before my last post, just to make sure I wasn't missing anything. It does help when making an argument to be a little more specific when citing something than just wave a whole document at someone and go 'read this'. At this point I can only guess at what you might possibly be thinking.

The best argument I can think to make from your point of view would be the whole 'non-ninja are at best second class citizens and at worst beasts' bit, but there are persuasive arguments for that being written with regular civilians in mind and not the rare civilians with wealth and formal titles. Interpreting information that's true about the general case to specific cases can get you in trouble.

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No civilians have ever be in charge. Ninjas have always been able to take whatever they want from civilians. There is no civilians with formal titles. They have no military strength or authority. They have never had a chance to generate wealth without it being looted by ninjas until 60 years ago.

 

[TaliesinSkye]

No civilians have ever be in charge. Ninjas have always been able to take whatever they want from civilians. There is no civilians with formal titles. They have no military strength or authority. They have never had a chance to generate wealth without it being looted by ninjas until 60 years ago.

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Is it your position that the daimyo and the landholding nobility under him just don't exist? I'm not sure that's a very well supported argument, seeing as how we know they do. Or are you just not calling them civilians? In this world's parlance they are, since they're not ninja. They probably would be in any case since they're apparently banned from acting as soldiers.

 

[Oneiros]

Is it your position that the daimyo and the landholding nobility under him just doesn't exist? I'm not sure that's a very well supported argument. Or are you just not calling them civilians? In this world's parlance they are, since they're not ninja. They probably would be in any case since they're apparently banned from acting as soldiers.

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The Daimyo is just a glorified tax collector. They have no actual authority. There are no landholding nobility

Like I'm sorry but the world you think MFD is is just so wrong from what is shown by the text and by QMs post

 

[TaliesinSkye]

The Daimyo is just a glorified tax collector. They have no actual authority. There are no landholding nobility

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Uh huh. And how do you maintain a society or collect taxes without any actual authority, hm?

Does the Daimyo go door to door in all the cities and villages in Fire picking up coins?

Does he keep things orderly with his own two arms when ninja aren't around?

Or does he, perhaps, have an extensive system of lesser nobility with lots of people working for them that do all of that work? People who exercise authority to get it all done?

Which of these models makes more sense to you as a system that could actually work?

Think things through. It helps.

 

[Oneiros]

Uh huh. And how do you maintain a society or collect taxes without any actual authority, hm?

Does the Daimyo go door to door in all the cities and villages in Fire picking up coins?

Does he keep things orderly with his own two arms when ninja aren't around?

Or does he, perhaps, have an extensive system of lesser nobility with lots of people working for them that do all of that work? People who exercise authority to get it all done?

Which of these models makes more sense to you as a system that could actually work?

Think things through. It helps.

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What you are describing are called bureaucrats. They don't have any actual authority over ninjas