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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Cariyaga said:
Use the portal to the Naraka path that Kagome mentioned forever ago. It'll require we go into Lightning somewhere, but...
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Oh, I didn't recall that. Hopefully it's kept thoroughly locked from this side. I wonder if someone could pull an Orpheus with it.

Hazou: "Kagome! Suit up, we've got a mission. We're going into hell and we're not going to stop blowing things up until we bring Jiraiya home."

Kagome: *spits tea everywhere*

Kagome: How can I feel oddly proud and horrified at the same time?
 
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MadScientist said:
If we can use that portal it cuts out a lot of dangerous research on our part.
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The portal appears to be closed, which tbh is probably a good thing for the world.
Velorien said:
"What about some of the other dangers?" an uncomfortable Hazō decided to shift the subject. "You've mentioned gaki before, haven't you? And damnbeasts?"

"Good memory," Kagome-sensei nodded approvingly. "The gaki are what happens when some young idiot sealmaster decides that they can perfectly well reverse-engineer their own summoning scroll instead of listening to their elders. Oops, instead of a gate to the Summon Realm you've got a gate to Hell. Suddenly, you've got gaki flooding in everywhere, because gaki are hunger spirits and the human world is full of tasty souls for them to eat. And that was lucky for us. At least the gate led to one of the other paths, and not, say, Out."

"'Out'?" Mari-sensei asked. "Out where?"

"Not out where," Hazō said firmly before Kagome-sensei could answer. "Just Out. And you don't talk about what's on the other end, because there are some things that, when you start paying attention to them, they start paying attention to you."

"So let's talk about gaki!" Kagome-sensei screeched at the top of his voice. "Fascinating things, gaki. Much more interesting than any old forbidden dimensions anyone might be wondering about. See, after a bunch of people got devoured, the sealmasters managed to seal the gate, but of course some bright sparks decided to keep a few gaki around, because having something that can eat souls is a great way to make sure people die when they are killed, if you know what I mean. Nobody knows the danger of immortals better than the Sage."
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It's also worth noting that it was a sealing failure, and we shouldn't try to replicate those. I actually kind of feel like the reason for that rule is something along the lines of a sealing failure being the confluence of tons of overly-complex interactions as the seal goes off-kilter, and thus don't bely fundamental sealing theory you can learn from so much as a Bethesda engine deciding to send a horse into the stratosphere. If so, then trying to replicate a sealing failure at best gives you the exact same effect, most likely does something completely different, and in almost no cases teaches you anything about how those effects actually work and how to tweak or build on them.
 
Inferno Vulpix said:
It's also worth noting that it was a sealing failure, and we shouldn't try to replicate those.
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If by that you mean "we shouldn't try to make a seal fail in a way that matches a prior failure" then sure. But if you mean "we shouldn't design a seal from the ground up to deliberately do something that another seal did when it failed" then hell no. A seal failure can do anything, so the second statement can be extrapolated to "we should never design seals that can do anything".
 
MadScientist said:
If by that you mean "we shouldn't try to make a seal fail in a way that matches a prior failure" then sure. But if you mean "we shouldn't design a seal from the ground up to deliberately do something that another seal did when it failed" then hell no. A seal failure can do anything, so the second statement can be extrapolated to "we should never design seals that can do anything".
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Well sure, if it's possible with a sealing failure it's possible with sealing success, but I was responding to what appeared to be a statement that we could learn how to create such a portal by observing the failure that accidentally created it.

If we're trying to build a portal to Naraka then we'll need to learn dimensional seals and grind up veterancy from the ground up before starting it as a coherent research project, and I'm saying that observing an extant Naraka portal caused by sealing failure wouldn't give us any insights. (Not that it matters, since that portal's long since closed)
 
Inferno Vulpix said:
Well sure, if it's possible with a sealing failure it's possible with sealing success, but I was responding to what appeared to be a statement that we could learn how to create such a portal by observing the failure that accidentally created it.

If we're trying to build a portal to Naraka then we'll need to learn dimensional seals and grind up veterancy from the ground up before starting it as a coherent research project, and I'm saying that observing an extant Naraka portal caused by sealing failure wouldn't give us any insights. (Not that it matters, since that portal's long since closed)
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I was saying we should use the portal instead of creating our own. We still might be able to. When the bladehorror portal was "sealed off", we did that by putting a ton of MEWs over it, not by making it no longer exist. The Cloud hell-portal might be the same way.
 
MadScientist said:
I was saying we should use the portal instead of creating our own. We still might be able to. When the bladehorror portal was "sealed off", we did that by putting a ton of MEWs over it, not by making it no longer exist. The Cloud hell-portal might be the same way.
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We were also told around the bladehorror incident that portals by and large disappear over time, and given the sorts of shenanigans Gaki et al. apparently get up to I kind of doubt a layer of stone or other mundane obstacles would properly count as 'sealing it off'.
 
MadScientist said:
If by that you mean "we shouldn't try to make a seal fail in a way that matches a prior failure" then sure
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Hot take: I disagree.

Sealing failures look like utility. Some of the more bullshit effects were created by them, those that we likely couldn't replicate without literal decades of research. In addition, they're predictable to at least some degree, going by Kagome's words. Just think of the potential of harassing this power!

There aren't a lot of data on sealing failures because sealmasters avoid them at all costs, terrified out of their minds — even Jiraiya was so scared he dreamt up the Watchers after exploiting one — but I suspect that, with a large enough sample size, we would be able to outline some useful patterns. And then, eventually, find very efficient ways to cut research corners, hidden for those suicidally audacious enough to try.

Say, Kagome told us that storage scrolls don't tend to fail esoterically. What do you think about, once we have a free week, printing out ~1000 of them, and then systematically tearing them apart? As a start.
 
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Noumero said:
Hot take: I disagree.

Sealing failures look like utility. Some of the more bullshit effects were created by them, those that we likely couldn't replicate without literal decades of research. In addition, they're predictable to at least some degree, going by Kagome's words. Just think of the potential of harassing this power!

There aren't a lot of data on sealing failures because sealmasters avoid them at all costs, terrified out of their minds — even Jiraiya was so scared he dreamt up the Watchers after exploiting one — but I suspect that, with a large enough sample size, we would be able to outline some useful patterns. And then, eventually, find very efficient ways to cut corners, hidden for those suicidally audacious enough to try.

Say, Kagome told us that storage scrolls don't tend to fail esoterically. What do you think about, once we have a free week, printing out ~1000 of them, and then systematically tearing them apart? As a start.
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This sounds a lot like a line of logic that's basically a hubris trap.

I'm inclined to think that the dire warnings about not thinking this way are probably passed down for a good reason. If nothing else those warnings are evidence that other people have clearly followed this line of thought before and, for some reason, not made major discoveries. (Possibly because they're horribly dead.)
 
Noumero said:
Hot take: I disagree.

Sealing failures look like utility. Some of the more bullshit effects were created by them, those that we likely couldn't replicate without literal decades of research. In addition, they're predictable to at least some degree, going by Kagome's words. Just think of the potential of harassing this power!

There aren't a lot of data on sealing failures because sealmasters avoid them at all costs, terrified out of their minds — even Jiraiya was so scared he dreamt up the Watchers after exploiting one — but I suspect that, with a large enough sample size, we would be able to outline some useful patterns. And then, eventually, find very efficient ways to cut research corners, hidden for those suicidally audacious enough to try.

Say, Kagome told us that storage scrolls don't tend to fail esoterically. What do you think about, once we have a free week, printing out ~1000 of them, and then systematically tearing them apart? As a start.
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I would like to point out that this was one of the areas of research Arikada pursued.
 
Noumero said:
Hot take: I disagree.

Sealing failures look like utility. Some of the more bullshit effects were created by them, those that we likely couldn't replicate without literal decades of research. In addition, they're predictable to at least some degree, going by Kagome's words. Just think of the potential of harassing this power!

There aren't a lot of data on sealing failures because sealmasters avoid them at all costs, terrified out of their minds — even Jiraiya was so scared he dreamt up the Watchers after exploiting one — but I suspect that, with a large enough sample size, we would be able to outline some useful patterns. And then, eventually, find very efficient ways to cut research corners, hidden for those suicidally audacious enough to try.

Say, Kagome told us that storage scrolls don't tend to fail esoterically. What do you think about, once we have a free week, printing out ~1000 of them, and then systematically tearing them apart? As a start.
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I don't think we can gather sufficient data in Hazou's (unaugmented) lifetime to be able to get sealing failures to do what we want. I'm against this, at the very least before we've got working necromancy to bring us back after this kills us horribly.

Also, some seal failures are literal world-enders, so the data-gathering process itself is an Apollyon SCP.
 
Cariyaga said:
I would like to point out that this was one of the areas of research Arikada pursued.
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Oh, dear.
Velorien said:
Although she is not a genius like Jiraiya himself (he says casually), she has been rumoured to dabble in some advanced areas of sealcrafting experimentation, notably relating to the effects of seals and sealing mishaps on the functioning of the human body
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She specialized in biosealing failures... I want her notes.
MadScientist said:
I don't think we can gather sufficient data in Hazou's (unaugmented) lifetime to be able to get sealing failures to do what we want. I'm against this, at the very least before we've got working necromancy to bring us back after this kills us horribly.

Also, some seal failures are literal world-enders, so the data-gathering process itself is an Apollyon SCP.
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Do Shadow Clones count as an "augmentation"? Memetic hazards would remain a risk, but they seem to be relatively rare; world-enders much more so.
TaliesinSkye said:
I'm inclined to think that the dire warnings about not thinking this way are probably passed down for a good reason.
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Of course. After all, an average sealing apprentice is an idiot who will get self killed trying to exploit sealing failures in stupid, suicidal ways. Entirely unlike us!
 
Considering the extremely slow pace, I'm tempted to call these discussions castles in the air because we'll all be dead before Hazou can attempt any of this. I won't though because I fear 'build castles in the air' will make it to the Plan Cache :p
 
Waffle said:
Considering the extremely slow pace, I'm tempted to call these discussions castles in the air because we'll all be dead before Hazou can attempt any of this. I won't though because I fear 'build castles in the air' will make it to the Plan Cache :p
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Building castles in the air sounds feasible tho
 
Waffle said:
Considering the extremely slow pace, I'm tempted to call these discussions castles in the air because we'll all be dead before Hazou can attempt any of this. I won't though because I fear 'build castles in the air' will make it to the Plan Cache :p
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The original plan before we joined Leaf was to make a Hidden Village in the sky using 5SB.
 
Noumero said:
Hot take: I disagree.

Sealing failures look like utility. Some of the more bullshit effects were created by them, those that we likely couldn't replicate without literal decades of research. In addition, they're predictable to at least some degree, going by Kagome's words. Just think of the potential of harassing this power!

There aren't a lot of data on sealing failures because sealmasters avoid them at all costs, terrified out of their minds — even Jiraiya was so scared he dreamt up the Watchers after exploiting one — but I suspect that, with a large enough sample size, we would be able to outline some useful patterns. And then, eventually, find very efficient ways to cut research corners, hidden for those suicidally audacious enough to try.

Say, Kagome told us that storage scrolls don't tend to fail esoterically. What do you think about, once we have a free week, printing out ~1000 of them, and then systematically tearing them apart? As a start.
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I was under the impression the Wardens were real, considering Jiraiya was "Don't fuck with this, full stop. SERIOUSLY, STOP " not "they could or could not be real".
And if we piss them off, i'm fairly sure it will be an instant death.
 
Lord Marshal said:
I was under the impression the Wardens were real, considering Jiraiya was "Don't fuck with this, full stop. SERIOUSLY, STOP " not "they could or could not be real".
And if we piss them off, i'm fairly sure it will be an instant death.
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Oneiros said:
@Inferno Vulpix has made a really good argument that Jiraiya was experiencing sleep paralysis and just dreamed the whole thing.
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Well, I wasn't the one who first came up with it, but I tend to bring it back up when this topic resurfaces.

I'm also not 100% sold on it either, but I do feel like it's a strong possibility, and perhaps even more likely than the incident actually being genuine. Here's what I said about it last time though:
Inferno Vulpix said:
I mean, strictly speaking the only evidence we have of the Watchers is Jiraiya's encounter with them... which sounds quite a lot like sleep paralysis, leading to the possibility that Jiraiya suffered sleep paralysis after a desperate, ridiculously risky sealing-based maneuver and filled in the dots in entirely the wrong way.

Think of it like this: you're Jiraiya, extremely hardened ninja safe behind layers of traps. You are forced awake by an intense feeling of doom and a weight on your chest, like there's someone pressing you down into your bed. Your mind instinctively goes back to the sealing failure you set off earlier and the rumours you heard about giant sealing conspiracies. You're not sure what's going on except you feel so much dread and you're panicking and there's someone there and you can't do anything about it. And then whoever it was is gone as quickly as they came, and you calm down a little, and find that they didn't leave a trace behind.

To someone who doesn't know that sleep paralysis is a thing, the only reasonable explanation for what happened is that a super-elite ninja broke into your camp, got past all your traps, personally confronted you while you were at your most vulnerable, and then reset all your traps as they left just to show off how good they are. And you think it must not be a coincidence that this happens after the one battle you intentionally made a sealing failure. All you can really say is that you're glad whoever it was decided to spare you.
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