Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

[QTesseract]

What happens if someone else picks up this mission?

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We just need to make it impossible (or improbably difficult) for non Gōketsu to pull off. Something that's easy for us to pull off but hard for everyone else, probably due to requiring our seals or elemental mastery.

 

[Cariyaga]

We just need to make it impossible (or improbably difficult) for non Gōketsu to pull off. Something that's easy for us to pull off but hard for everyone else, probably due to requiring our seals or elemental mastery.

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Such as, say, "Clearcut and plow this forest"

 

[faflec]

See below re: skywalker seals, which are currently (and permanently, by Tower fiat) the most valuable.

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So this suggest that the earlier statement of Skywalkers being 150% higher than normally-drawn seals is still true. By this reasoning a Chunin-level sealmaster like Kagome would get 150% times a Chunin-level seal element (760 ryo). Am I correct in this assumption?

 

[Kiba]

So this suggest that the earlier statement of Skywalkers being 150% higher than normally-drawn seals is still true. By this reasoning a Chunin-level sealmaster like Kagome would get 150% times a Chunin-level seal element (760 ryo). Am I correct in this assumption?

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I think that's the wrong assumption. The quote said the 'most valuable'. That mean it must be more valuable than a Jonin-level seal element.

 

[Inferno Vulpix]

I think that's the wrong assumption. The quote said the 'most valuable'. That mean it must be more valuable than a Jonin-level seal element.

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That's a bit wasteful compared to the relative price system. If you'll make 1.5x as much as you normally do by making skywalkers, it's worth it for you to switch no matter whether you're a chuunin making chuunin money or a jounin making jounin money for your seals, so there's no need to pay chuunin sealmasters better-than-jounin rates to get them to switch to making skywalkers.

 

[Cariyaga]

...Is making skywalkers considered a mission? Like, do we get bonus clan pay for selling it to them?

 

[faflec]

Y'know, I'm surprised Hana never leveled Sealing to 5 after she got her diplomatic missions cut off, so she could make explosives or storage seals as her primary source of income. Hazou said he'd be able to get Sealing lessons once he made Chunin, so clearly Hana knew someone with the skill...

 

[Cariyaga]

Y'know, I'm surprised Hana never leveled Sealing to 5 after she got her diplomatic missions cut off, so she could make explosives or storage seals as her primary source of income. Hazou said he'd be able to get Sealing lessons once he made Chunin, so clearly Hana knew someone with the skill...

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Sealing's the one she'd want higher than 5, it's calligraphy she wouldn't have to worry about. And I mean, once you've dumped the 250 XP for the stunt in, might as well go higher...

 

[Inferno Vulpix]

Y'know, I'm surprised Hana never leveled Sealing to 5 after she got her diplomatic missions cut off, so she could make explosives or storage seals as her primary source of income. Hazou said he'd be able to get Sealing lessons once he made Chunin, so clearly Hana knew someone with the skill...

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Sealing is the profession with the highest beginner mortality rate, apparently. I feel like Kagome's extaordinary caution has helped keep Hazou alive, but Hana wouldn't have that luxury and would be facing a pretty sizeable chance of dying horribly before even getting to the point where she could make seals.

With Hazou on the line, could she take that risk?

 

[faflec]

Sealing's the one she'd want higher than 5, it's calligraphy she wouldn't have to worry about. And I mean, once you've dumped the 250 XP for the stunt in, might as well go higher...

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I was emphasizing how little XP she would need to make a reasonably comfortable living.

Sealing is the profession with the highest beginner mortality rate, apparently. I feel like Kagome's extaordinary caution has helped keep Hazou alive, but Hana wouldn't have that luxury and would be facing a pretty sizeable chance of dying horribly before even getting to the point where she could make seals.

With Hazou on the line, could she take that risk?

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One would think that being taught by a competent sealmaster and having IN and being skilled/patient in general would be enough. Recall that Hazou has infused explosive seals mid-combat at a stupidly small Sealing level.

 

[Paperclipped]

She's also pretty prideful. While she might have been willing to tolerate Hazou pursuing Kurosawa tutelage of his own volition, she wouldn't do it on her own.

 

[Rihaku]

Yes, Jiraiya set this up. The price and number of these would be difficult for the Tower to pay in cash, so they are adding the profits to your clan stipend: Each month you get 10% as cash and 90% as an addition to your non-monetary-benefits account.

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I think the nomenclature "non-monetary benefit" might be a bit confusing, see the discussion about phrasing ("non-monetary" vs "conditional") on the bottom of page 2 of the Econ PMs.

@OliWhail, Cariyaga mentioned on discord that we could add a huge bounty to a mission we intend to do, so that we can claim the entirety of our mission-based conditional payments from the artificially inflated bounty of one mission.

Are there rules against that? I have a hard time seeing the Tower setting up a system that incentivizes clan ninja to do missions and just standing by when someone abuses the bounty system to circumvent the incentive structure.

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The Kage has pretty strong incentives to make sure clan ninjas actually go on missions, so I imagine you don't get tax refunds or bonuses on missions funded by yourself or affiliated entities, the spirit of the latter being enforced by "I know it when I see it" audits by superhuman social/int specs. Doesn't matter how many shell companies you hide behind if you're up against auditors that can read your mind.

While individual clans might occasionally have incentive to oppose this system, "the clans" in general would not, as each clan prefers that all the other clans accept missions on a regular basis (else Leaf would quickly hemorrhage power and standing relative to the other major villages), clan ninja constituting both the majority and the strongest contingent of Leaf ninja. Plus it would likely be seen as incredibly shameful / dishonorable to even attempt this sort of thing.

 

[eaglejarl]

Speaking of Sealing, we need to spec hard into the tone seal tech tree.

If we don't blast Freebird while nuking hell, I'll be very dissapointed. Likewise if we aren't escaping with Jiraiya and Shinji on the back of an Impulse seal powered motorcycle to the tune of Bat out of Hell. This would be a grave injustice.

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Why Freebird? I would have thought one of the following:

Thunderstruck
Highway to Hell
Stomp-stomp-clap!
Ride of the Valkyries

to your non-monetary-benefits account.

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Correction: This should say 'conditional payments'. They are monetary -- i.e., you're getting actual physical ryō -- it's simply that you need to do something to get them, as opposed to the 10% non-conditional stipend.

Does any of this require doing missions and stuff to get the bonus money, as we do for some of the rest of it?

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It works the same as the rest -- you get 10% non-conditionally and 90% gets put in the conditional pool, thereby increasing the amount of bonus pay / tax refunds you can earn by doing missions.

@OliWhail, Cariyaga mentioned on discord that we could add a huge bounty to a mission we intend to do, so that we can claim the entirety of our mission-based conditional payments from the artificially inflated bounty of one mission.

Are there rules against that? I have a hard time seeing the Tower setting up a system that incentivizes clan ninja to do missions and just standing by when someone abuses the bounty system to circumvent the incentive structure.

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Try it. What could go wrong?

So this suggest that the earlier statement of Skywalkers being 150% higher than normally-drawn seals is still true. By this reasoning a Chunin-level sealmaster like Kagome would get 150% times a Chunin-level seal element (760 ryo). Am I correct in this assumption?

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Erm. Let us get back to you. There's been some confusion about whether it's the seal or the sealmaster that is rated chūnin level.

...Is making skywalkers considered a mission? Like, do we get bonus clan pay for selling it to them?

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No.

 

[Cariyaga]

...I assume that Skywalkers sell for enough to the tower that even given the 50% margin going to us they're still 150% higher? That just occurred to me as a thing that the Tower would have to account for.

 

[Kiba]

That's a bit wasteful compared to the relative price system. If you'll make 1.5x as much as you normally do by making skywalkers, it's worth it for you to switch no matter whether you're a chuunin making chuunin money or a jounin making jounin money for your seals, so there's no need to pay chuunin sealmasters better-than-jounin rates to get them to switch to making skywalkers.

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I assumed that seals are rated individually on difficulty and then priced. But if skywalker is priority number one and they want all sealmasters to produce it, they will price it at jounin level and then raise it a bit.

 

[OliWhail]

@OliWhail, Cariyaga mentioned on discord that we could add a huge bounty to a mission we intend to do, so that we can claim the entirety of our mission-based conditional payments from the artificially inflated bounty of one mission.

Are there rules against that? I have a hard time seeing the Tower setting up a system that incentivizes clan ninja to do missions and just standing by when someone abuses the bounty system to circumvent the incentive structure.

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Off the top of my head (aka "the other QMs are asleep like sensible people, this is not a quorum post"), the quickest way to address this is to have the Tower say "you cannot take a job you or a clan member have bountied over x% (50, 100?) ; you can increase a mission by up to y% (200, 300?)

By this reasoning a Chunin-level sealmaster like Kagome would get 150% times a Chunin-level seal element (760 ryo). Am I correct in this assumption?

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Ah! That was another thing! I think we settled on payment on the basis of seal, not seal smith. So skywalkers would sell for ~(jōnin-seal x 1.5)

Skywalkers being 150% higher than normally-drawn seals

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I believe so

think the nomenclature "non-monetary benefit" might be a bit confusing, see the discussion about phrasing ("non-monetary" vs "conditional") on the bottom of page 2 of the Econ PMs.

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You are correct! That but didn't get updated in the draft doc

 

[Byzantine]

Erm. Let us get back to you. There's been some confusion about whether it's the seal or the sealmaster that is rated chūnin level.

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Ah! That was another thing! I think we settled on payment on the basis of seal, not seal smith. So skywalkers would sell for ~(jōnin-seal x 1.5)

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Yep. You guys need to talk. This question to us players is basically "can we resolve the monetary problems with under a hundred hours of work for Hazo/Kagome, or do we need ~3 times as many?"

 

[OliWhail]

Yep. You guys need to talk. This question to us players is basically "can we resolve the monetary problems with under a hundred hours of work for Hazo/Kagome, or do we need ~3 times as many?"

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Yeah EJ pinged me in QM chat, it's based on seal.

E:
Therefore, recommend making plans assuming Skywalkers command a price ~R3435

 

[Byzantine]

Yeah EJ pinged me in QM chat, it's based on seal

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Thank you, that had been driving me insane.

 

[Rihaku]

I don't recall where it was explicitly discussed, but aren't Skywalkers priced as Chunin-grade seals +50%? They're based off Air Domes which are only Chunin-grade in difficultly, I believe.

Since there are only 3-4 jounin Sealmasters in total, raising them to Jounin price would increase cost by 300% while only increasing output by 30% (less if Hazou/Kagome constitute the majority of Skywalker output already). Leaf could do it if they were truly desperate for the production, but that state of affairs wouldn't last longer than a few months.

I think when we modeled it, given the demands Hazou has on his spare time, seal income has the potential to make you quite wealthy, certainly enough to deal with the mortgage and enjoy an opulent lifestyle on top of that, but it would not be enough by itself to deal with your political issues. If you ramp up seal output to its sustainable limits (assuming the focus inherent to scribing blanks + infusing limits productive labor to 8-10 hours a day) you could afford to buy out the Hagoromo with money to spare*, but pre-committing that much time would cripple your other plans.

Hazou is your only output vector into the world, if he spends all his time making seals then he won't have time to actually carry out your objectives. Similarly, Kagome is your primary source of advanced sealing research, if he spends all his time on production of seals to sell (assuming you could even convince him to do so, given his paranoia) then you are basically trading your seal researcher for mere money.

If you adopt a sealmaster you could mitigate this, but (precisely because sealing is so lucrative) they are already among the most well-compensated professionals in Leaf, vastly more so than field ninja, so are the least needful of clan backing. Thus it is in your interests to find some means of generating massive wealth that is either even more lucrative than sealing or that does not rely on your continuous personal contribution to maintain.

*As in, your monthly income would be enough to absorb their debt with a significant amount left over, not that you would make enough in a couple months to buy out their principal.

 

[Cariyaga]

I don't recall where it was explicitly discussed, but aren't Skywalkers priced as Chunin-grade seals +50%? They're based off Air Domes which are only Chunin-grade in difficultly, I believe.

Since there are only 3-4 jounin Sealmasters in total, raising them to Jounin price would increase cost by 300% while only increasing output by 30% (less if Hazou/Kagome constitute the majority of Skywalker output already). Leaf could do it if they were truly desperate for the production, but that state of affairs wouldn't last longer than a few months.

I think when we modeled it, given the demands Hazou has on his spare time, seal income has the potential to make you quite wealthy, certainly enough to deal with the mortgage and enjoy an opulent lifestyle on top of that, but it would not be enough by itself to deal with your political issues. If you ramp up seal output to its sustainable limits (assuming the focus inherent to scribing blanks + infusing limits productive labor to 8-10 hours a day) you could afford to buy out the Hagoromo with money to spare*, but pre-committing that much time would cripple your other plans.

Hazou is your only output vector into the world, if he spends all his time making seals then he won't have time to actually carry out your objectives. Similarly, Kagome is your primary source of advanced sealing research, if he spends all his time on production of seals to sell (assuming you could even convince him to do so, given his paranoia) then you are basically trading your seal researcher for mere money.

If you adopt a sealmaster you could mitigate this, but (precisely because sealing is so lucrative) they are already among the most well-compensated professionals in Leaf, vastly more so than field ninja, so are the least needful of clan backing. Thus it is in your interests to find some means of generating massive wealth that is either even more lucrative than sealing or that does not rely on your continuous personal contribution to maintain.

*As in, your monthly income would be enough to absorb their debt with a significant amount left over, not that you would make enough in a couple months to buy out their principal.

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30% output's pretty relevant on the scale of Skywalkers though.

 

[Jello_Raptor]

So wait, we'd make more money for the same 10 seals if we were chuunin ranked? The seals don't have to change for pay to scale to skill level?

This seems off, but if that's true Hazou should just make his minimum set and then make blanks for Kagome to infuse.

 

[Inferno Vulpix]

So wait, we'd make more money for the same 10 seals if we were chuunin ranked? The seals don't have to change for pay to scale to skill level?

This seems off, but if that's true Hazou should just make his minimum set and then make blanks for Kagome to infuse.

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Hazou can't make Skywalkers, remember. All he can do is make blanks for Kagome.

 

[Oneiros]

Something to remember is all of this was set up by Jiraiya. So it makes sense that he would set things up to be advantageous to Goketsu.

 

[Byzantine]

I don't recall where it was explicitly discussed, but aren't Skywalkers priced as Chunin-grade seals +50%? They're based off Air Domes which are only Chunin-grade in difficultly, I believe.

Since there are only 3-4 jounin Sealmasters in total, raising them to Jounin price would increase cost by 300% while only increasing output by 30% (less if Hazou/Kagome constitute the majority of Skywalker output already). Leaf could do it if they were truly desperate for the production, but that state of affairs wouldn't last longer than a few months.

I think when we modeled it, given the demands Hazou has on his spare time, seal income has the potential to make you quite wealthy, certainly enough to deal with the mortgage and enjoy an opulent lifestyle on top of that, but it would not be enough by itself to deal with your political issues. If you ramp up seal output to its sustainable limits (assuming the focus inherent to scribing blanks + infusing limits productive labor to 8-10 hours a day) you could afford to buy out the Hagoromo with money to spare*, but pre-committing that much time would cripple your other plans.

Hazou is your only output vector into the world, if he spends all his time making seals then he won't have time to actually carry out your objectives. Similarly, Kagome is your primary source of advanced sealing research, if he spends all his time on production of seals to sell (assuming you could even convince him to do so, given his paranoia) then you are basically trading your seal researcher for mere money.

If you adopt a sealmaster you could mitigate this, but (precisely because sealing is so lucrative) they are already among the most well-compensated professionals in Leaf, vastly more so than field ninja, so are the least needful of clan backing. Thus it is in your interests to find some means of generating massive wealth that is either even more lucrative than sealing or that does not rely on your continuous personal contribution to maintain.

*As in, your monthly income would be enough to absorb their debt with a significant amount left over, not that you would make enough in a couple months to buy out their principal.

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Did you account for the fact that most sealmasters learn a set of standard seals and then never even try to research another? That group also needs to be incentivized into action, and given how dangerous it is this is basically a replacement for high-level mission pay.

I'm going to say this is actually going to lead to a 50-60% increase in the number of skywalkers produced, which is fairly massive, particularly for such a powerful tool.