- Location
- Somewhere over the rainbow
yo i do that now
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
- Start date
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- Tags
- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
He was being swarmed by a 360-degree globe of paper. The clearing charges have a ten-degree arc.
Keiko used three of them to cut through the bars in Isan's Temple of Doom when she took the Scroll. Kagome used his blast harness (basically, a clearing charge on steroids) to splash a bunch of Isan jōnin back in Bonfire of the Tapirs.
3pm EST tomorrow
Yep, we actually sim'd it out. Many thanks to @Radvic for the simulator code. Creating the stats for the several dozen participants was the work of several days and much debate.
For the record, we did a bunch of test runs to get a handle on how the simulator worked. It was really a coin toss; Akatsuki won several times.
Also the 4-9 Tails jinchūriki, only one of whom is Leaf.
Jiraiya died in round 15 (14?) out of 18. In that same round, 3 members of Akatsuki and a whole bunch of their cultists died, meaning that Akatsuki's combat power dropped a lot. If Jiraiya had survived that round, he probably would have survived the battle.
By twice in a row, do you mean USOUD where Hiruzen died and BOTG where Jiraiya died?
Honestly, the outcome I would have preferred and found most interesting would have been:
From Leaf: Jiraiya, Orochimaru, and Hiashi survived, along with a couple of Hyūga jōnin.
From Mist: Ren and Zabuza survived
Everyone else: Died.
Ren and Zabuza were furious with each other, so that's massive chaos in Mist.
Tsunade was the one of the most popular people in Leaf and her support would have been really useful to Jiraiya. Orochimaru was the literal bogeyman for Leaf. Jiraiya needs Orochimaru's firepower, so he wants to bring him back into the fold. Hiashi can use that as leverage against him, and he can tell whatever story he wants and has two jōnin to back him up.
Every other village has lost their Kage and isn't going to know about that for the better part of a week, leaving them very vulnerable to attack. Hiashi can use that to drum up xenophobic fervor, either to actually kick off a war which he can then be the hero of, or to put Jiraiya in the position of burning political capital to keep things peaceful. Hiashi can spin that as Jiraiya being weak and therefore a bad choice for Hokage.
- Location
- Why would this be required?
Wow that sucks, what about Oro?
- Location
- Yes.
Oh I get it, it's the QMs.
Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
We must unseal the past ones. It is the only whey.
TaliesinSkye
Occasional Editor
- Location
- Northeast Ohio, United States
How did they deal with the tailed beasts they were holding? Transferred?
That's OK, this way we can safely loot his laboratories for all his notes without having to worry about getting killed/experimented on/curse sealed. We should send out people to find those laboratories ASAP. Don't want any other villages getting their hands on that stuff.Also we never got to talk about science with Snek Uncle
Leaf does still have raw numbers of ninja who aren't S rank. How many typical jonin or chunin does it take to seriously threaten a high tier combatant? There must be some number that would be a counter if they fought intelligently.
Yeah, it would have been nice if someone had said 'No deal unless you bring back our friends too'. On the other hand maybe the resurrection jutsu couldn't help that many people. I dunno.
We have political options to try first. Just like Jiraiya couldn't do whatever the hell he wanted because the other clan heads mattered, if Hiashi gets the hat (and that's not a foregone conclusion) we can put together an alliance of clans to keep him in check.
If we do have to run after all efforts fail...hilariously, our best uplift move might actually be to defect back to Mist and join Ami's initiative. But that's last resort stuff. Let's give it our very best go to save Leaf first. Even if our first fight to get someone sane the hat fails, we've got options for containing Hiashi and building Leaf into a liberal government whether he likes it or not.
First and best option, get Tsunade up and functional ASAP. We also need to impress on Mari that we need her skills NOW or everything will fall apart. It's time she earned whatever redemption she's looking for by using her understanding of human nature to engineer the best possible outcome for Leaf politics and the world. Do or die. We build an alliance of clans who want sane leadership and good decisions. Together the alliance backs someone besides Hiashi. Preferably Tsunade, but the Sarutobis would be fine if Tsunade isn't politically workable or is so hurt she'll be stuck in bed for months. (Which is hard to imagine, it being Tsunade.)
He can't do that unilaterally; he'd need the council to sign off on it, just like they had to sign off on the formation of the clan. This is why immediate alliance building is critical to our survival. We must do that NOW. Whatever it takes. Giving them secrets, making marriage alliances, whatever it takes. This is the moment when we trade horses and play every
There might be ways we could effectively do this while making it seem less threatening by keeping it in the framework of the existing system. For instance we could put together groups of civilian ninja as loose-knit 'vassal clans' who don't actually owe us anything and just exist to back us up when we push for things that are good for the civilian born ninja. Or whatever other legal fiction is most convenient.
Particularly if we can't put together an alliance of domestic clans strong enough to keep the hat away from Hiashi or check him if he gets the hat, having an international marriage alliance might be the trump card we need to influence things. We should talk to Ami about the domestic political situation in Leaf. Hell, we could ask for step by step advice in putting the alliance together if we can't get Mari functional enough to do it.
I like all of this. I have two suggested additions, although understandably they might be a bit much to fit into the next update or two.
One, we need to build an alliance of clans behind closed doors. It will be dedicated to ensuring that Leaf is run in a sane manner. Hiashi...well, I think a lot of the clans would prefer someone else get the hat, not just us. And if he does get the hat, I think a lot of the clans would be willing to work together to keep him from doing anything foolish, like throwing away the Mist alliance or trying to get Goketsu killed for no good reason. Once we take stock of things I propose we open negotiations with Yamanaka, Akimichi, Nara and Sarutobi to start. I don't know what other clans might be interested as well; we need to take stock of the political situation and welcome in any allies of convenience at this point.
Two, we could offer...let's call it political coordination with Mori Ami. We both want liberal governments in Mist and Leaf. Let's work together to make that happen, exchanging information and expertise and if necessary bargaining chips to make sure neither government falls to a conservative isolationist regime. Ami's advice on how to navigate the Leaf political situation could be invaluable, particularly if we can't make Mari see the light in using her manipulation expertise for good to achieve a personal redemption.
Yeah, Hiashi's ideology is dangerously close to a Hitler analogue. It's much the same problem as we see in the Pangolins. We cannot let Hiashi turn Leaf into an oppressive empire if he tries to go down that road. Better a civil war than that.
Even if Naruto is mentally well, he is still a child. He's not ready to take the hat and no one would accept him. He needs another twenty years of seasoning. Tsunade is the preferred option, but if she's so badly injured that she'll be bedridden for months then she won't be viable as a candidate. If so, I think Sarutobi Asuma might be one of very few viable alternatives to Hiashi that we would get along well with.
How do you feel about Asuma? He's sane and well respected. Ino-Shika-Cho and Sarutobi would all back him for sure. Throwing our vote and the vote of Clan Senju behind him might be enough to get him the hat.
In fact, something we really need right now is a list of the clans that support Hiashi for the hat. We need to count votes and see if we can lure away any of his supporters before it's too late.
I agree, this is a good approach. We have her write out everything she knows about the Leaf political situation/personal relationships between the clans, and then we take that information and have Keiki and Ami find us an optimized path to a liberal Leaf government.
- Location
- NY
Why is protein important again?
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
Hold on a minute.
The only survivors for Rock and Cloud's divisions are their Jinchuuriki - people who may or may not have even been lucid during the battle.
It's quite possible that Rock and Cloud still don't know about Skywalkers. It's also possible that back when everyone was sharing intel and getting ready they sent messengers back and included the knowledge of Skywalkers, but there's a real possibility our super-secret trump card still remains a super-secret trump card.
The only survivors for Rock and Cloud's divisions are their Jinchuuriki - people who may or may not have even been lucid during the battle.
It's quite possible that Rock and Cloud still don't know about Skywalkers. It's also possible that back when everyone was sharing intel and getting ready they sent messengers back and included the knowledge of Skywalkers, but there's a real possibility our super-secret trump card still remains a super-secret trump card.
Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
I'll refer you to the numerous biologists and adjacent specialists in thread. They can perhaps answer your questions on this matter.
TaliesinSkye
Occasional Editor
- Location
- Northeast Ohio, United States
Thank you for the whip counts, we needed this to plan.
I don't think anyone is going to vote for Naruto as Hokage. Naruto is a child. He is hot headed and not ready or sufficiently respected. He needs twenty years of seasoning. Then he'll be a great Hokage.
I think Sarutobi Asuma might be a replacement for Tsunade if she's too hurt to be available any time soon. I'd be curious for your analysis on him.
I agree that as far as peeling off Hiashi's supporters:
The Aburame's desire for stability might be appealed to with persuasion, particularly with regards to building peaceful international relations that will prevent further conflict. Hiashi didn't seem big on the Mist alliance, right?
The Motoyoshi might be bought off with economic arrangements. Perhaps we could offer them a share in the various groundbreaking businesses we've got cooking, or just Pangolin gold.
Minami might be persuaded since their opposition was so personal against Jiraiya.
We need to ask someone what the Amori care about and think about the present situation.
Kurusu might be persuaded to support Tsunade because of her ancient and highly important bloodline, in addition to the other reasons she's so well respected by everyone.
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
Naruto's been groomed for the Hokage position since birth, and what little we've heard of him from the QMs suggests he's a lot more cool-headed here than in canon (excessive reliance on canon information has been counterproductive since the very first decisions of the quest). He's also a village hero, the Jinchuuriki of the Nine-Tails and one of approximately two S-rankers Leaf has left. (Jiraiya has gone on record saying that Naruto's strength was comparable to his own)
And if all that's not enough, remember that there's precedent for this exact sort of situation in Yagura. If you're an S-ranker and you have sound judgement and can play the politics game, your age shouldn't play too much of a role in things.
It's worth bringing up, at least, because Naruto becoming Hokage, if we can make that happen, is one of the best outcomes of this situation for both us and for Leaf and the world.
And if all that's not enough, remember that there's precedent for this exact sort of situation in Yagura. If you're an S-ranker and you have sound judgement and can play the politics game, your age shouldn't play too much of a role in things.
It's worth bringing up, at least, because Naruto becoming Hokage, if we can make that happen, is one of the best outcomes of this situation for both us and for Leaf and the world.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
You're doing that thing where you draw on canon material again. We know precious little about Naruto's personality other than that he's got a hell of a lot of charisma.
- Location
- Why would this be required?
[x] Action Plan: Excuse Me, What Just Happened
Overall I like the plan, I do think the "putting Jiraiya's body in a summoning scroll" but should be dropped though
Overall I like the plan, I do think the "putting Jiraiya's body in a summoning scroll" but should be dropped though
TaliesinSkye
Occasional Editor
- Location
- Northeast Ohio, United States
I don't care how well tutored and charming a 15 year old is, they're 15. They need time and experience. And the old guys who have lots of power won't tolerate a child ordering them around.
Even if it were legal, would a 15 year old ever get elected president? No. No they would not. People just don't entrust that sort of responsibility to someone that young. They pick older people with lots of experience and proven track records, who have had lots of time to accumulate respect and political allies.
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- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
With respect, I feel like the people of Konoha will disagree with you that the highly charismatic S-ranker hero isn't worthy of respect, whatever his age. Even Hiashi's philosophy would agree that Naruto's strength and capability makes him a suitable leader.
Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
Insert vague hissing noises
With respect, age simply isn't a dimension one should optimize for when it comes to stuff like this. You don't accept being ordered around by an Adult Ninja because they're old, you accept it because of social norms and expectations projected onto their rank, or the fact that they can beat your face in trivially with a modicum of effort in whatever your battlefield of choice is.
Competency is king, and if the 15 year old Bijuu container can roflstomp you on the physical front and outdo you on the socials front, it doesn't matter what your opinion of their age is.
- Location
- Why would this be required?
Modern sensibilities are modern. 15 or not Naruto from what little we know is incredibly charismatic, is arguably the strongest ninja in the village even before Jiraiya died, has old clan rep as the last remaining Uzumaki and son of the 4th hokage, has the popularity and support of the village, was personally trained and groomed by the elite of the village(Kakashi, Jiraiya, Hiruzen, etc) for over a decade, and is one of two S-rankers that Konoha has left.
Jiraiya believed that Naruto, a 15 year old kid, was more suitable to run Konoha than he was, a multiwar veteran and Konoha's spymaster of 20 odd years. If that isn't a vote of confidence than I don't know what is, but either way no one cares about his age.
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Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
If Akatsuki won, wouldn't the quest effectively end?
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
Wouldn't stop the QMs from writing it
TaliesinSkye
Occasional Editor
- Location
- Northeast Ohio, United States
Didn't he say that Naruto would be a great Hokage 'some day'? I don't think he meant right now.
As for a fifteen year old somehow having the social skills, level temper, judgment, and political network of someone forty or fifty years their senior, and somehow being accepted by adults as a superior, this is supposed to be a rationalist setting, isn't it?
Even the most precocious child is not yet ready for what's involved with the highest levels of executive leadership. I don't know how old you are, or if you've interacted with teenagers or college students recently. They make a lot of mistakes as part of the maturation process that mean they're not really capable of competing with adults in the leadership arena yet.
There are character traits and experiences that humans just need time to acquire, and there's no way of rushing it. No amount of chakra is going to speed up the process of maturing into a wise and level headed adult. They need to make mistakes and learn from those mistakes. They need to observe people, learn about human nature, all that stuff that takes thousands of interactions and years.
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Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
So? Being 15 does not inherently limit your abilities in any way.
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
Case in point: Yagura. A child S-ranker Jinchuuriki village hero who kept people in line with his overwhelming power and the force of his personality.
TaliesinSkye
Occasional Editor
- Location
- Northeast Ohio, United States
It absolutely does. The brain is still developing, but most importantly it limits time. The time they've had to make mistakes and learn from them. The time they've had to observe people. To learn about human behavior. To build a huge mental library of what to do in X social situation that won't upset people and will work out alright.
If you really find this hard to accept, you can do some reading on child development or go interact with some teenagers yourself. They're just not able to compete with adults yet in a host of ways because they haven't finished learning stuff yet because they haven't had the time it takes. This isn't really a point of debate, it's thoroughly established fact.
Edit:
Even a child can keep power when they can and will murder anyone who doesn't do what they say. Yagura didn't need to have all the skills that a real leader does, which is how he got away with it. (Also, Yagura is from canon and canon laughs at the the idea of age realistic aptitudes.)
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