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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Roomba said:
Is that deceptive, even if it's deliberate? I'd consider it to be more in-line with having good rhetoric - presenting your point in such a way that it has the maximum possible impact on the listener.
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I was more pointing out that this was conveniently 100% Full-Hazou, with the right framing and with sufficient subtlety that it was effective in the situation. This is either deliberate on the characters part (unsealing a desk and working on blanks in front of them before handing some over? Theres no way he didn't think of how that would look from the other side. Flat out telling them he's bad at agency stuff and getting their opinion? Subtle stuff, but this lets them own their decision much more than another tactic would, so they'll be far more likely to go along with positive things you suggest if it feels like they're the ones making the decision here. Etc.) or we've succeeded in unintentionally weaponizing Hazou's characterization to an amazing extent there. It comes off way more the former to me.

YMMV on whether subtle manipulations of that sort map faithfully to Deceit, but I think it sort of does at least in this instance where you create an impression of yourself to another person by weaving the narrative together in a certain way. That impression may actually correspond pretty closely to your real self at the end of the day, but its the same sort of skillset you're drawing on than if you were trying to convince them you were something you aren't.

...does that make sense, or am I just talking in circles? Words are hard.
 
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Yeah, Naruto would never resurrect Gai and make him a cripple for the rest of his life even though he could literally regrow people's eyes.
 
Eight Gates OP, Pure Taijutsu Spec to the exclusion of all else OP.

In MfD he'd probably have a stunt that let him ignore skill pyramid for taijutsu.
 
Fresh C said:
Canon!Guy also solo'd Kisame who is said to be S-rank. So I think it's pretty confirmed he was S-rank in canon.
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Eh. IIRC S-rank is a databook thing rather than something that gets used in the narrative anyway. And Kakashi is as strong as Gai, yet he has a really tough time against Kakuzu. Whereas Sasuke beat Deidara, and you can't tell me he was an S-ranker.
 
Yeah, I like to think the whole ranking system is just a guidelines type thing, rather than an accurate measure of strength.

Basically meaning if you're an average Chunin and you see some A-Ranker out there you should probably just run. You have almost 0% percent chance of winning. If you're a jounin and you see a S-Ranker, you should probably run, unless you have a team and/or a really really good plan.

But it doesn't mean a clever person with a good strategy, or someone who's skills just happen to trump those of the S-Ranker's in one area can't ever hope to win against them without being S-Ranked themselves. It's just unlikely.
 
I'm genuinely not sure whether MfD-Kakuzu wins or Gai does. Because on one hand, hundreds-of-years-old-Taijutsu-specialist. On the other hand, Gai.
 
Velorien said:
Eh. IIRC S-rank is a databook thing rather than something that gets used in the narrative anyway. And Kakashi is as strong as Gai, yet he has a really tough time against Kakuzu. Whereas Sasuke beat Deidara, and you can't tell me he was an S-ranker.
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Why not? He soloed Gaara, while he still had the One-Tailed beast. That's pretty S-ranky thing to do.

Or were you referring to Sasuke?
 
Power scaling in canon makes zero sense at the end of the day anyways. Its handled really badly.
 
TarzanNn said:
Why not? He soloed Gaara, while he still had the One-Tailed beast. That's pretty S-ranky thing to do.

Or were you referring to Sasuke?
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Sasuke. Although, in fairness, Deidara's winning move was to throw a tactical nuke at the civilian population so Gaara would be forced to use up all his sand protecting them. An even face-off might have been very different.
 
Roomba said:
Something that came to mind just now: @eaglejarl, was Hazou drawing the storage seals he was going to gift to the clanless ninja during the conversation a deliberate strategy to give more weight to his offer of helping them learn Sealing? Or just a fortuitous coincidence? I don't think the update itself gives any indication either way, unless I missed something.
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MMKII said:
Hazou was being Mr. Deceptive and very subtly stringing them along there from my reading. Doing so in a way that aligns with their interests (presumably; they'd like to learn Ninja Magic and not be forever poor, I suspect) though.
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Pulling the seals out of his pocket would have said "I'm rich". Making them in plain sight said "I'm skilled... And you could be too if you study with my teacher."
 
eaglejarl said:
Pulling the seals out of his pocket would have said "I'm rich". Making them in plain sight said "I'm skilled... And you could be too if you study with my teacher."
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Gotcha, thanks.

Velorien said:
Sasuke. Although, in fairness, Deidara's winning move was to throw a tactical nuke at the civilian population so Gaara would be forced to use up all his sand protecting them. An even face-off might have been very different.
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This is perhaps one of a half-dozen fights in the series where decisions on the tactical level and the uniqueness of folks' powers actually matter. I really wish it was done more often than trying to do a mix of that and a DragonballZ-esque powerlevels fight, and then coming down on the latter in the form of "Theres some flavor text here based on their unique abilities but its really just powerlevels haha" or just flat out "Nah Madara Stronk but Naruto + Sasuke stronkest."

E: I suppose I'm being a tad uncharitable towards Kishimoto here. Part 1 had a lot more of these, but it was usually only for fights involving side characters.
 
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Adhoc vote count started by Velorien on May 1, 2019 at 2:19 PM, finished with 386 posts and 29 votes.
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Velorien said:
Point of note, what he did was do heavy damage to Madara, who at that time was invulnerable to everything except nature chakra. However, it required opening the eighth gate, meaning he died (or was supposed to) immediately after doing it.
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He did also defeat Kisame using the 7th gate though, and he was a rival to Kakashi who was good enough to become the sixth hokage. Plus looking at his pure stats/skill level, while taijutsu was his speciality he actually was good at about everything with even his unused skills like genjutsu at a respectable 3 while all of his physical abilities maxed out at 5.

I would say that grading him an S-rank is fair, at the very least an S-rank in taijutsu
 
Velorien said:
Actually, that was the episode when I stopped watching Naruto. Gai has a wonderful, I would even say moving "death of major character" episode. Then at the end, Naruto turns up with his new messianic powers and just resurrects him.
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That was all of Pain's invasion of Konoha for me.

"All these major character deaths, all the destruction, the drama. Surely this will have lasting effect on the characters for years to come-and they've all been ressurrected...aaaaaaaand they rebuilt the village like nothing happened"

Yup
 
Shadowwarp said:
He did also defeat Kisame using the 7th gate though, and he was a rival to Kakashi who was good enough to become the sixth hokage. Plus looking at his pure stats/skill level, while taijutsu was his speciality he actually was good at about everything with even his unused skills like genjutsu at a respectable 3 while all of his physical abilities maxed out at 5.
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On the other hand, seventh gate is next door to being dead, whereas, at worst, Kakashi manages with total chakra depletion and minor-to-moderate injuries.

As to the stat blocks, let's face it, those have been extracted from the rear of some third party who's probably never even talked to Kishimoto. Jiraiya also has genjutsu 3. Tsunade has 3.5. "Sharingan" Kakashi has 4.
 
Shadowwarp said:
aaaaaaaand they rebuilt the village like nothing happened
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It's at a lower altitude now.

Velorien said:
On the other hand, seventh gate is next door to being dead, whereas, at worst, Kakashi manages with total chakra depletion and minor-to-moderate injuries.

As to the stat blocks, let's face it, those have been extracted from the rear of some third party who's probably never even talked to Kishimoto. Jiraiya also has genjutsu 3. Tsunade has 3.5. "Sharingan" Kakashi has 4.
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Kakashi's powerlevel is consistently "About a solid inch away from being useless." in pretty much every engagement though. A solid inch, to be sure, but nonetheless...
 
Velorien said:
On the other hand, seventh gate is next door to being dead, whereas, at worst, Kakashi manages with total chakra depletion and minor-to-moderate injuries.

As to the stat blocks, let's face it, those have been extracted from the rear of some third party who's probably never even talked to Kishimoto. Jiraiya also has genjutsu 3. Tsunade has 3.5. "Sharingan" Kakashi has 4.
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Eh, for the stats fair enough


But the fact he was good enough that the bullshit that is Madara "smug dance" Uchiha considers him the greatest taijutsu master he's ever faced says a lot.

The whole "title given by a legendary opponent" seems to be a big deal in Naruto, like how the Sannin got their title from Hanzo the Salamander. Not from the rep they gained from fighting him to a stalemate either, but because he straight up named them the sannin because he was so impressed with them. It's silly but it's a thing.
 
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