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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Roomba said:
Well, for one, you're buffing our potential enemies instead, which has a very similar outcome. I'd personally rather take a nerf to us; it's transparent, and we avoid the panic that is currently making @MadScientist silently scream in Kagome. For the record, I'm not upset about the nerf. The numbers looked a bit on the high side when I added up all the bonuses, so it seems fair to me.

Secondly, to me at least, "simulationist mechanics" should reflect the "reality" we're modelling as best as they can. I think the Pepper Macerators do a good job of this - intuitively, it's easier to hit someone with a macerator payload compared to just punching them, which is why the Taijutsu bonus is fine for the purposes of determining hit chance, but the actual damage inflicted (Stress in FtD) is solely a property of the macerator payload. In FATE, a single skill roll determines both whether an attack lands, and the damage, but this makes no sense for Macerators in general.

Intuitively, Pangolin Gauntlets shouldn't just boost hit chance and damage and defense (which is what +Taijutsu does). Properly modelling their effect would be difficult, but I think some combination of the following would be more reasonable:
  • Weapon: 2 - do more damage with attacks roughly equivalent to +3 Taijutsu, but without the bonus to hit or defense
  • +1 to defensive Taijutsu rolls, +3 against melee Weapons. Having steel on your hands is very useful defensively.
  • Taijutsu Aspect Bonus to defensive Athletics rolls against small projectiles. Blocking or deflecting a kunai or shuriken with a metal gauntlet seems very reasonable.
  • -1 Taijutsu or similar malus. The gauntlets are a bit awkward, heavy, and make some moves (like grapples) all but impossible.
  • Some kind of penalty to Roki. Maybe a malus to the Deceit roll? Roki must be harder with a weapon that restricts you from using certain attacks.
In any case, this type of nerf would not only make sense from a simulationist perspective, but also make them more interesting from a gamist point of view. Using Macerators or Gauntlets would become a tactical choice, rather than something we always use because it's always good.

Anyway, that's my three cents. I'm fine with whatever decision you make, and trust you not to suddenly throw elite jounin at us in the next update. :)
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Actually, solid shot macerators it does make sense to scale damage because of the specific mechanics of the seal: Storage seals by default preserve momentum, so if you punch at the same time you activate the macerators, the resulting projectile has 20 meters per second (the macerator's speed) added to the speed of the punch.

Agreed for pepper spray for the most part.
 
Remember back in the day when we met Minami and we stacked up to her? Then after that we got macerators, goo bombs and all the pangolin Jutsu that really pushed us over the top
 
Winged_One said:
I thought seals were crazy expensive, so much that nobody can afford to liberaly spread them around as we do, clan or not? Like, "an explosive tag on every kunai" is not a thing anyone can afford except someone that has 24/7 access to a kurosawa sealmaster.
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THis seems to be especially the case for custom seals like Goo Bombs, etc. Any sealmaster with sufficient time and training can turn out explosive seals, but very few do independent research.
 
Winged_One said:
>counting seals under "equipment", because even if they can't make their own, they can certainly afford to get some made by clan/village sealmasters

I thought seals were crazy expensive, so much that nobody can afford to liberaly spread them around as we do, clan or not? Like, "an explosive tag on every kunai" is not a thing anyone can afford except someone that has 24/7 access to a kurosawa sealmaster.
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Not crazy expensive, or you wouldn't see genin teams with them at all. There aren't many sealmasters, so supply is never going to catch up with demand, but conversely it is in the village's interest to regulate so as to keep seal prices affordable since they are important military equipment that increases mission success rates.

Veedrac said:
The implication is that Noburi can freely hold and move around chakra in effectively arbitrary containers in lieu of his barrel for an hour or so.
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He can, but if he loses control of his chakra due to sudden damage and it ceases to be part of his chakra system even for a moment, he doesn't automatically recapture it.
 
Velorien said:
He can, but if he loses control of his chakra due to sudden damage and it ceases to be part of his chakra system even for a moment, he doesn't automatically recapture it.
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But we expect brief periods of disconnectivity aren't a problem, since it is implied Noburi can disconnect from his barrel without undue consequences, and in the meantime the barrel does not act magically.
eaglejarl said:
Noburi can put as much chakra as he wants into his water up to the limit of his capacity. Note that Wakahisa barrels retain chakra in the water indefinitely, but only if in close proximity (arms length at most) to a Wakahisa. If away from one for more than a few minutes, they start losing chakra at the same rate as any container. Typically a container will lose all its chakra within 2-6 hours, but sometimes its much slower or faster. (Watsonian: Rate is variable, depending on many difficult-to-predict factors. Doylist: We aren't going to keep track of it and will just use our best judgement in each case.)
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eaglejarl said:
I find myself unsure how to respond to this. On the one hand I don't want to be rude or a jerk. On the other hand, we've never said how many dice the opposition has before you were actually in a fight -- in fact, we typically don't even show the number of dice when you ARE in a fight, just the final total. I'm unclear how we go from "the QMs are going to start putting actual effort into the enemy design" to "the QMs need to tell us what the enemy numbers are going to be"?



Much as I'd like to, I'm pretty confident that the thread -- or, at least, the ones who actually spoke up -- would go ballistic. I'm not really desirous of enduring another salt-fest.


??
This is the first event.[1]​ You started with ~300 candidates in the entire Exams and you have no idea how many are left.

Also, double post.


[1] Well, technically it's the second, with the first one being the ongoing "you need to find out where to be" thing. Still, it's the first one that will definitely eliminate a noticeable number of people.
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Roomba said:
Well, for one, you're buffing our potential enemies instead, which has a very similar outcome. I'd personally rather take a nerf to us; it's transparent, and we avoid the panic that is currently making @MadScientist silently scream in Kagome. For the record, I'm not upset about the nerf. The numbers looked a bit on the high side when I added up all the bonuses, so it seems fair to me.

Secondly, to me at least, "simulationist mechanics" should reflect the "reality" we're modelling as best as they can. I think the Pepper Macerators do a good job of this - intuitively, it's easier to hit someone with a macerator payload compared to just punching them, which is why the Taijutsu bonus is fine for the purposes of determining hit chance, but the actual damage inflicted (Stress in FtD) is solely a property of the macerator payload. In FATE, a single skill roll determines both whether an attack lands, and the damage, but this makes no sense for Macerators in general.

Intuitively, Pangolin Gauntlets shouldn't just boost hit chance and damage and defense (which is what +Taijutsu does). Properly modelling their effect would be difficult, but I think some combination of the following would be more reasonable:
  • Weapon: 2 - do more damage with attacks roughly equivalent to +3 Taijutsu, but without the bonus to hit or defense
  • +1 to defensive Taijutsu rolls, +3 against melee Weapons. Having steel on your hands is very useful defensively.
  • Taijutsu Aspect Bonus to defensive Athletics rolls against small projectiles. Blocking or deflecting a kunai or shuriken with a metal gauntlet seems very reasonable.
  • -1 Taijutsu or similar malus. The gauntlets are a bit awkward, heavy, and make some moves (like grapples) all but impossible.
  • Some kind of penalty to Roki. Maybe a malus to the Deceit roll? Roki must be harder with a weapon that restricts you from using certain attacks.
In any case, this type of nerf would not only make sense from a simulationist perspective, but also make them more interesting from a gamist point of view. Using Macerators or Gauntlets would become a tactical choice, rather than something we always use because it's always good.

Anyway, that's my three cents. I'm fine with whatever decision you make, and trust you not to suddenly throw elite jounin at us in the next update. :)
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For the record, I would absolutely be okay with a self-nerf, if it keeps our opponents where we think they are right now. Honestly, you said it yourself in the rules doc: if simulationism comes in conflict with anything, simulationism wins.

Actually, if anything, I'd give the Pangolin Gauntlets a general malus to Taijutsu and a malus to Roki specifically, because Roki as a style is all about deception, and huge fucking metal claws makes sneak attacks harder to hide and more importantly, unbalances the whole bunch of memorized motions that Roki as a style is built upon.
 
huhYeahGoodPoint said:
For the record, I would absolutely be okay with a self-nerf, if it keeps our opponents where we think they are right now. Honestly, you said it yourself in the rules doc: if simulationism comes in conflict with anything, simulationism wins.

Actually, if anything, I'd give the Pangolin Gauntlets a general malus to Taijutsu and a malus to Roki specifically, because Roki as a style is all about deception, and huge fucking metal claws makes sneak attacks harder to hide and more importantly, unbalances the whole bunch of memorized motions that Roki as a style is built upon.
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I would be especially more willing to have a self nerf, given that Hazou's the only one with such ridiculous numbers, meaning that if everyone else gets buffed, then Keiko, Noburi, (to some extent even Akane) and all of our fellow testgoers are fucked.

e:

An easy way to adjust this would be something simple like limitting the bonus one can only have to say, 50% or 75% more skills-worth of XP given as flat bonus to the skill. This would lower Hazou's bonus from 43 -> 59 to 43 -> 57 for 75% or ->54 for 50%.
 
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Cariyaga said:
I would be especially more willing to have a self nerf, given that Hazou's the only one with such ridiculous numbers, meaning that if everyone else gets buffed, then Keiko, Noburi, (to some extent even Akane) and all of our fellow testgoers are fucked.
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Uh, why would the other testgoers get fucked if everyone-but-us is getting buffed? Wouldn't only Team Uplift be negatively affected?
 
huhYeahGoodPoint said:
Because no one else on our team is as ridiculously lopsidedly built (save maybe Akane)
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That doesn't...

Alright CCnJ I am interpreting @Cariyaga's statement as "Team Uplift, as well as the other Leaf-nin with us, will be negatively affected if the QMs decide to increase their levels to reflect their ability to optimize", which doesn't seem right to me as the other Leaf-nin would also benefit from increased build optimization.
 
faflec said:
That doesn't...

Alright CCnJ I am interpreting @Cariyaga's statement as "Team Uplift, as well as the other Leaf-nin with us, will be negatively affected if the QMs decide to increase their levels to reflect their ability to optimize", which doesn't seem right to me as the other Leaf-nin would also benefit from increased build optimization.
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They might or might not. But Noburi, Kei, and Akane, would not benefit from it.

e:

Also, new-page highlight of an edit I made:

An easy way to adjust this would be something simple like limitting the bonus one can have to say, 50% or 75% more skills-worth of XP given as flat bonus to the skill. This would lower Hazou's bonus from 43 -> 59 to 43 -> 57 for 75% or ->54 for 50%.
 
Cariyaga said:
They might or might not. But Noburi, Kei, and Akane, would not benefit from it.
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Ah, I see. I was just confused by where the "fellow testgoers" was coming from.
Cariyaga said:
An easy way to adjust this would be something simple like limitting the bonus one can have to say, 50% or 75% more skills-worth of XP given as flat bonus to the skill. This would lower Hazou's bonus from 43 -> 59 to 43 -> 57 for 75% or ->54 for 50%.
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Or we could put an upper limit to the number of Aspects we can use per roll.
 
huhYeahGoodPoint said:
For the record, I would absolutely be okay with a self-nerf, if it keeps our opponents where we think they are right now. Honestly, you said it yourself in the rules doc: if simulationism comes in conflict with anything, simulationism wins.

Actually, if anything, I'd give the Pangolin Gauntlets a general malus to Taijutsu and a malus to Roki specifically, because Roki as a style is all about deception, and huge fucking metal claws makes sneak attacks harder to hide and more importantly, unbalances the whole bunch of memorized motions that Roki as a style is built upon.
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wrt Roki, it's not sneak attacks though, but rather making motions for one move but really making another through exact prep through the bloodline. Although it would be implied then that he would have to train for some time with the Gauntlets (or any specific weapon) before being able to use the style at all with such weapon, unless it very closely mirrors other weapons he's used before (ex: same length + weight sword with the same hilt size, etc.)

For the record, would also rather we get nerfed then everyone else get their modifiers buffed if the modifiers we have already seem too large. That would be best for preserving simulation accuracy? Just as long as we don't get informed of such changes at a time where we have no ability to prepare/compensate like in the midst of a battle/ambush/etc.
 
faflec said:
Ah, I see. I was just confused by where the "fellow testgoers" was coming from.

Or we could put an upper limit to the number of Aspects we can use per roll.
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Could do. But it wouldn't prevent us from going on a quest for a thousand jutsu that cost negligible amounts of chakra in order to get small bonuses to rolls.

Though really, that sounds like what Orochimaru's doing.
 
faflec said:
Ah, I see. I was just confused by where the "fellow testgoers" was coming from.

Or we could put an upper limit to the number of Aspects we can use per roll.
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Limiting Aspects doesn't make much sense when Aspects are meant to represent "taking advantage of the environment"; I think it'd be reasonable for, let's say, Kakashi to definitely be able to capitalize on basically any environmental advantage he can find, which would imply that Aspects are basically infinite.
faflec said:
That doesn't...

Alright CCnJ I am interpreting @Cariyaga's statement as "Team Uplift, as well as the other Leaf-nin with us, will be negatively affected if the QMs decide to increase their levels to reflect their ability to optimize", which doesn't seem right to me as the other Leaf-nin would also benefit from increased build optimization.
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CCnJ:

When I made my statement which you quoted, I assumed that the non-Team Uplift ninja would benefit from further optimization capability, but that all of Team Uplift would be relatively nerfed, due to their sheets being less obsessively optimized by us. Such a nerf would hurt our teammates far more than it did us, since such a nerf would likely affect the outcome for them instead of just the margin of victory for us.
Citrus said:
wrt Roki, it's not sneak attacks though, but rather making motions for one move but really making another through exact prep through the bloodline. Although it would be implied then that he would have to train for some time with the Gauntlets (or any specific weapon) before being able to use the style at all with such weapon, unless it very closely mirrors other weapons he's used before (ex: same length + weight sword with the same hilt size, etc.)

For the record, would also rather we get nerfed then everyone else get their modifiers buffed if the modifiers we have already seem too large. That would be best for preserving simulation accuracy? Just as long as we don't get informed of such changes at a time where we have no ability to prepare/compensate like in the midst of a battle/ambush/etc.
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See: second part of quoted. And honestly, even if he did retrain all the motions I'd still expect a malus to Roki itself, because Pangolin Gauntlets have weight and thus momentum, making the sort of lightning-fast unexpected attack that Roki was highlighted to have in Let The Bodies Hit The Floor more difficult.
 
Cariyaga said:
Could do. But it wouldn't prevent us from going on a quest for a thousand jutsu that cost negligible amounts of chakra in order to get small bonuses to rolls.

Though really, that sounds like what Orochimaru's doing.
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The answer to that is to give jutsu chakra costs and casting times proportional to their benefit. Chakra capacity is already really expensive in terms of XP, and buffs which last more than a single combat round, like Ghost Scales, take a normal action.

Excessive bonus stacking is a problem because of passive effects from items without drawbacks or costs. Setting a maximum bonus would solve this problem, but it'd be an ugly hack to compensate for poor balance elsewhere. I'd much rather default to the old chestnut of certain bonuses simply not stacking with each other.

My overall preference, as I said earlier, would be to nerf the few problematic items right now and be more careful with flat skill bonuses in the future.
 
Also just a note Hazō is a huge glass canon. We can punch people out but are athletics and awareness are very poor. So any ranged explosives user or genjutsu user can tear us to pieces. Also we have no chakra reserves without Noburi.
 
Roomba said:
The answer to that is to give jutsu chakra costs and casting times proportional to their benefit. Chakra capacity is already really expensive in terms of XP, and buffs which last more than a single combat round, like Ghost Scales, take a normal action.

Excessive bonus stacking is a problem because of passive effects from items without drawbacks or costs. Setting a maximum bonus would solve this problem, but it'd be an ugly hack to compensate for poor balance elsewhere. I'd much rather default to the old chestnut of certain bonuses simply not stacking with each other.

My overall preference, as I said earlier, would be to nerf the few problematic items right now and be more careful with flat skill bonuses in the future.
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In general I agree. A few options:
  • Fighting styles instead default to Half or 3/4 Aspect Bonus [e: 3/4 should be for well-done fighting styles -- those made by masters (Gai's Strong Fist -- possibly Akane's style as a result of that) or long refinement (Hyuuga's fighting style), but not Hazou's unless and until he gets assistance from his mother in further developing it]
  • Only one self-buff ninjutsu aspect may apply at a time -- ie Pantokrator's Hammer (notably absent: Seal-based aspects, and environmental aspects, such as Wind Wall's. Hozuki's Mantle would probably be changed to providing an aspect at the cost of -((between 6 and 8)-Athletics Aspect Bonus)) athletics penalty (max 0).)
  • Only one ninjutsu's aspect bonus may apply at a time -- ie Ghost Scales.
  • Pangolin Claws reworked to be chakra metal. No present benefits, but has possibility for stuff like activating seals through them. Needs some Kagome-level engineering to make proper use of.
Notably absent:
  • Macerators. As mentioned before, they, I think, should provide a fair bonus to rolls. It may or may not become an issue as we improve them, though -- they're shotguns as it is, and we could improve them to fire significantly faster, perhaps to the point of being sniper rifles. May need to consider this more thoroughly
  • Seal stuff like Silence Mines. Another reasonable, small bonus with its own limitations.
 
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Cariyaga said:
In general I agree. A few options:
  • Fighting styles instead default to Half or 3/4 Aspect Bonus
  • Only one self-buff ninjutsu aspect may apply at a time -- ie Pantokrator's Hammer (notably absent: Seal-based aspects, and environmental aspects, such as Wind Wall's. Hozuki's Mantle would probably be changed to providing an aspect at the cost of -((between 6 and 8)-Athletics Aspect Bonus)) athletics penalty (max 0).)
  • Only one ninjutsu's aspect bonus may apply at a time -- ie Ghost Scales.
  • Pangolin Claws reworked to be chakra metal. No present benefits, but has possibility for stuff like activating seals through them. Needs some Kagome-level engineering to make proper use of.
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I don't want to go too far on the other side, though. Jutsu should be very powerful. That's the magic of the setting that sets the champs apart ftom the chumps. and it can do incredible things. A ninjtusu specialist should be a viable build.
 
MadScientist said:
I don't think the QMs care that our bonuses are too high. I think they care that we have bonuses at all when other ninja typically don't.
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You may wish to reword this so it doesn't sound like such a dig at them? I mean, thinking about it, you're kind of right, but the phrasing makes it sound like an attack.
 
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