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No. I'm saying that I'm unhappy that we've been debuffed by an unknown amount right before heading into fights that might kill our characters.
Okay. So, do you want a simulationist quest or do you want narrative structure where the protagonist is the only one who gets to be smart?

However, I think it would be healthier for the mechanics if neither of these things (or the Macerators) gave flat Taijutsu bonuses. Or if they do give them, it should be tied to some significant cost in terms of XP or chakra, or something.
Yeah, that would have been much better. Unfortunately, we didn't do that and we don't want to explicitly nerf you. We'll be more careful in future.
 
No, we want to write a simulationist quest. Y'all are well above average and will run roughshod over most ninja your age. If you wander around Leaf challenging other genin to spar then you will crush 95% of them. Right now, however, you are not challenging random genin. You are challenging the best of the best. The QMs have been being lazy with enemy design up until now and it's time for us to step up.

Yes. That is what I meant. We will never get exceed what an above average member of our peer group could reasonably obtain. Any optimization or new skills we obtain will just become the new normal. It's not a huge deal once you realize that we will never be able to over achieve
 
Yes. That is what I meant. We will never get exceed what an above average member of our peer group could reasonably obtain. Any optimization or new skills we obtain will just become the new normal. It's not a huge deal once you realize that we will never be able to over achieve

...except we are overachieving. He said it right there, basically everyone our age is still a genin and we can stomp them into the dirt no matter what tricks they pull out. We go to the chuunin exams very early to face ninja who are almost all older than us and we're still near the top of the heap.
 
We do not intend to change anything about how much XP you get or how many dice you get. We do intend to do more with your opponents -- instead of simply saying "here's how many XP they have, let's spend it on skills", we'll assume that they have put just as much effort into munchkinry as you have. They won't have access to all the same stuff but they will have more than "40 taijutsu plus a fireball or something". This doesn't imply that they will be your equals, or that every ninja in the world will get the same stuff, but it does mean that they will be more like the kinds of elite candidates that should logically be sent to represent their village at the International Ninja Olympics.

In other words, we're going to play fair with both sides.
So we should not bother.
 
Okay, ignore that then. Do we know the average age of candidates?
*shrugs* All I could find, though I admit I didn't try very hard.
There are 45 Leaf genin here, and probably a couple of hundred other contestants, so it's going to take a while to get through everyone. Hazō has somewhere between five minutes and two hours before he is chosen. You, the hivemind, have until 9am Eastern Time tomorrow (Saturday September 9) to make a plan.
 
What I want is to have some idea of how much the numbers are changing by. Please stop with this insulting line of "You're just mad that other people can be smart too." stuff.
We haven't even discussed it yet. My expectation is that you'll still be in the lead, it simply won't be by 20 dice.

Judging by the ninja Leaf sent, this isn't true. Four teams our age, one team a year older. Unless Leaf also sent other teams that we're not aware of.
They did.
 
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Are you suggesting that we should nerf you by changing how the pangolin gauntlets and macerators work?

Yes, for the rationale that Roomba outlines.

So, what you're saying is that in a simulationist quest Hazō should be the only one who did anything other than invest points in Taijutsu?

No, we want to write a simulationist quest. Y'all are well above average and will run roughshod over most ninja your age. If you wander around Leaf challenging other genin to spar then you will crush 95% of them. Right now, however, you are not challenging random genin. You are challenging the best of the best. The QMs have been being lazy with enemy design up until now and it's time for us to step up.

I don't really have a good idea what percentage of total genin in the village go to the chuunin exams, but I do question the assumption that they're "the best of the best". Our team got ordered to go, but my impression that was most genin volunteer for the chuunin exams. If they seem halfway decent and they want their shot, they generally get allowed to go. That's why there's such a big winnowing. I mean, after the first exam (which in itself must have eliminated a lot of candidates) there were still over 300 genin left. What did we start with, 500? That doesn't suggest to me an extremely high degree of selectivity.

Why would the villages allow that? Because often they don't know who the best of the best is, not really. The Exams are a substitute for war, meaning that the vast majority of the genin have never really been tested on the battlefield. Maybe that cocky kid who never seemed to get it together in class will actually turn out to have a will of steel and a razor sharp tactical mind when you put him in a situation of actual danger rather than simulated exercises. I mean, probably not, but if you pre-select for only those genin you already know are awesome then you can't find the genin you don't know are awesome. (And maybe that kid you thought was pretty awesome in classroom exercises will wilt when he realizes he has to fight ninja from enemy villages for real. That will happen too.)

The ones who pass the Second Exam might actually qualify as "the best of the best". Before that there's still plenty of scrubs.

No. I'm saying that I'm unhappy that we've been debuffed by an unknown amount right before heading into fights that might kill our characters.

You shouldn't worry too much in the immediate fight though, and let me tell you why. Even if every group from now on is buffed, they still aren't likely to have twelve people. The numbers game is everything.
 
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You shouldn't worry too much in the immediate fight though, and let me tell you why. Even if every group from now on is buffed, they still aren't likely to have twelve people. The numbers game is everything.

That... helps some. Still kinda worried about international alliances like pre-system change, though. That could totally kill us all. E: Yes, yes, Kagome, I know, I know...
 
Please tell us as soon as you have numbers. All we know at this point is that the tactical situation has just gotten worse, and we may or may not still be able to get out of this alive. E: [insert Kagome-like comment regarding our previous projected lifespans here]

I find myself unsure how to respond to this. On the one hand I don't want to be rude or a jerk. On the other hand, we've never said how many dice the opposition has before you were actually in a fight -- in fact, we typically don't even show the number of dice when you ARE in a fight, just the final total. I'm unclear how we go from "the QMs are going to start putting actual effort into the enemy design" to "the QMs need to tell us what the enemy numbers are going to be"?


Yes, for the rationale that Roomba outlines.
Much as I'd like to, I'm pretty confident that the thread -- or, at least, the ones who actually spoke up -- would go ballistic. I'm not really desirous of enduring another salt-fest.

That's why there's such a big winnowing. I mean, after the first exam (which in itself must have eliminated a lot of candidates) there were still over 300 genin left.
??
This is the first event.[1]​ You started with ~300 candidates in the entire Exams and you have no idea how many are left.

Also, double post.


[1] Well, technically it's the second, with the first one being the ongoing "you need to find out where to be" thing. Still, it's the first one that will definitely eliminate a noticeable number of people.
 
This ninja'd in as I was posting the previous:

That... helps some. Still kinda worried about international alliances like pre-system change, though. That could totally kill us all. E: Yes, yes, Kagome, I know, I know...

In fairness, there's a big difference between "hey, look, these specific people that we hate are gathered here in a known location" and "okay, event's over and those people are nowhere to be found, so let's head for the rally point." Since I'm the one writing the next update I feel safe saying that it's very unlikely you'll see an international coalition headed your way.
 
This is the first event.[1]​ You started with ~300 candidates in the entire Exams and you have no idea how many are left.

Also, double post.

[1] Well, technically it's the second, with the first one being the ongoing "you need to find out where to be" thing. Still, it's the first one that will definitely eliminate a noticeable number of people.

Huh. I had frankly assumed that a lot of people failed the "find out where you need to be" one.
 
I find myself unsure how to respond to this. On the one hand I don't want to be rude or a jerk. On the other hand, we've never said how many dice the opposition has before you were actually in a fight -- in fact, we typically don't even show the number of dice when you ARE in a fight, just the final total. I'm unclear how we go from "the QMs are going to start putting actual effort into the enemy design" to "the QMs need to tell us what the enemy numbers are going to be"?

We got Word of QM on what the chunin/jonin boundaries were in the past. I believe it's even codified in the rules doc, now? (E: It does not appear to be, having checked) I just want to know whether we should expect those numbers to increase by closer to 3 or 15 or whatever else when accounting for bonuses.
 
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Huh. I had frankly assumed that a lot of people failed the "find out where you need to be" one.
Presumably Mist deliberately made that one easy. I mean, you guys found out where to be just by walking up to two randos and saying "Hey, I'm related to two important people so you should tell me where to be." You didn't even have any proof to offer.

Think how pissed off the various villages would have been if all their teams washed out before getting to do anything at all because of a ridiculously unfair event that the home team clearly has an advantage on based on having more contacts, family ties, and familiarity with the area.
 
Yeah, that would have been much better. Unfortunately, we didn't do that and we don't want to explicitly nerf you. We'll be more careful in future.

Well, for one, you're buffing our potential enemies instead, which has a very similar outcome. I'd personally rather take a nerf to us; it's transparent, and we avoid the panic that is currently making @MadScientist silently scream in Kagome. For the record, I'm not upset about the nerf. The numbers looked a bit on the high side when I added up all the bonuses, so it seems fair to me.

Secondly, to me at least, "simulationist mechanics" should reflect the "reality" we're modelling as best as they can. I think the Pepper Macerators do a good job of this - intuitively, it's easier to hit someone with a macerator payload compared to just punching them, which is why the Taijutsu bonus is fine for the purposes of determining hit chance, but the actual damage inflicted (Stress in FtD) is solely a property of the macerator payload. In FATE, a single skill roll determines both whether an attack lands, and the damage, but this makes no sense for Macerators in general.

Intuitively, Pangolin Gauntlets shouldn't just boost hit chance and damage and defense (which is what +Taijutsu does). Properly modelling their effect would be difficult, but I think some combination of the following would be more reasonable:
  • Weapon: 2 - do more damage with attacks roughly equivalent to +3 Taijutsu, but without the bonus to hit or defense
  • +1 to defensive Taijutsu rolls, +3 against melee Weapons. Having steel on your hands is very useful defensively.
  • Taijutsu Aspect Bonus to defensive Athletics rolls against small projectiles. Blocking or deflecting a kunai or shuriken with a metal gauntlet seems very reasonable.
  • -1 Taijutsu or similar malus. The gauntlets are a bit awkward, heavy, and make some moves (like grapples) all but impossible.
  • Some kind of penalty to Roki. Maybe a malus to the Deceit roll? Roki must be harder with a weapon that restricts you from using certain attacks.
In any case, this type of nerf would not only make sense from a simulationist perspective, but also make them more interesting from a gamist point of view. Using Macerators or Gauntlets would become a tactical choice, rather than something we always use because it's always good.

Anyway, that's my three cents. I'm fine with whatever decision you make, and trust you not to suddenly throw elite jounin at us in the next update. :)
 
Isn't the first task officially the word one? I mean, I assume that's meant to winnow out contestants over the one month training period and won't have that big an impact before the second exam, but I don't remember ever thinking 'find where you need to be' as more than a component of the second task.
 
Intuitively, Pangolin Gauntlets shouldn't just boost hit chance and damage and defense (which is what +Taijutsu does). Properly modelling their effect would be difficult, but I think some combination of the following would be more reasonable:
  • Weapon: 2 - do more damage with attacks roughly equivalent to +3 Taijutsu, but without the bonus to hit or defense
  • +1 to defensive Taijutsu rolls, +3 against melee Weapons. Having steel on your hands is very useful defensively.
  • Taijutsu Aspect Bonus to defensive Athletics rolls against small projectiles. Blocking or deflecting a kunai or shuriken with a metal gauntlet seems very reasonable.
  • -1 Taijutsu or similar malus. The gauntlets are a bit awkward, heavy, and make some moves (like grapples) all but impossible.
  • Some kind of penalty to Roki. Maybe a malus to the Deceit roll? Roki must be harder with a weapon that restricts you from using certain attacks.

(whistles) Nice! Now I'd drop the last one... it's not like Roki doesn't work if you use a sword or something, or if it does then that should be something built into Roki rather than an exception for the gauntlets.

But yes, otherwise that's great! Bonus to damage, bonus to defense (and allows you to use taijutsu at all to defend against some effects you normally couldn't defend with taijutsu) but does decrease your attack options a bit.

In any case, this type of nerf would not only make sense from a simulationist perspective, but also make them more interesting from a gamist point of view. Using Macerators or Gauntlets would become a tactical choice, rather than something we always use because it's always good.

Exactly. Interesting choices are the core of any game. Rather than just stacking boosts, having to ask "do I need more offense with macerators or am I more worried about defense and need gauntlets" is the sort of interesting choice that we can actually vote into plans.
 
Bloodlines, superior ninjutsu and equipment and taijutsu styles are all entirely reasonable things for clan ninja to have (counting seals under "equipment", because even if they can't make their own, they can certainly afford to get some made by clan/village sealmasters). You can't be a ninja clan if you don't have at least one (you can count "wealth" as a proxy for "superior equipment"), and once you have one, you will doubtless work to acquire/develop others as well (e.g. the Hyūga, who went Bloodline Limit->taijutsu style->speciality ninjutsu). Not saying Hazō isn't exceptional for having all of these things, but a lot of the exceptionality comes from having acquired them without backing and before reaching chūnin level, rather than from being unique among ninja.

If anything, all of this is highlighting that we've been sticking too close to canon in modelling the resources and abilities of other ninja, rather than allowing them to optimise the way you optimise. The Nara have every qualification a researcher could possibly need--why wouldn't they have unique and powerful seals coming out of their ears? Likewise, the Hyūga are prodigiously wealthy. If they want superior gear for their most promising ninja, they should be able to afford it without blinking an eye.

>counting seals under "equipment", because even if they can't make their own, they can certainly afford to get some made by clan/village sealmasters

I thought seals were crazy expensive, so much that nobody can afford to liberaly spread them around as we do, clan or not? Like, "an explosive tag on every kunai" is not a thing anyone can afford except someone that has 24/7 access to a kurosawa sealmaster.

We do not intend to change anything about how much XP you get or how many dice you get. We do intend to do more with your opponents -- instead of simply saying "here's how many XP they have, let's spend it on skills", we'll assume that they have put just as much effort into munchkinry as you have. They won't have access to all the same stuff but they will have more than "40 taijutsu plus a fireball or something". This doesn't imply that they will be your equals, or that every ninja in the world will get the same stuff, but it does mean that they will be more like the kinds of elite candidates that should logically be sent to represent their village at the International Ninja Olympics.

In other words, we're going to play fair with both sides.

That... helps some. Still kinda worried about international alliances like pre-system change, though. That could totally kill us all. E: Yes, yes, Kagome, I know, I know...

Eh, we are probably fine. We have our team + 9 optimised people good enough to be sent to the exam against an average of 3 optimised people good enough to be sent to the exam.
 
(whistles) Nice! Now I'd drop the last one... it's not like Roki doesn't work if you use a sword or something, or if it does then that should be something built into Roki rather than an exception for the gauntlets.

But yes, otherwise that's great! Bonus to damage, bonus to defense (and allows you to use taijutsu at all to defend against some effects you normally couldn't defend with taijutsu) but does decrease your attack options a bit.

Thanks. I kinda wanted another malus for balance purposes, but you're right, there's no reason Roki wouldn't work with weapons in general. Maybe just reduce the bonuses a bit instead?

I was also wondering what else we could do to make Macerators more interesting, and I came up with the idea of enemies rolling Athletics against them defensively. It makes a bit of simulationist sense, and in gamist terms, it would make them very useful against enemies good in melee (since their main combat stat is likely to be higher than their Athletics). Pepper Macerators have a cool effect already, so this change would mostly give the Solid Shot ones a niche.
 
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