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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Kiba said:
Can we stop talking behind her back?
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And what, tell her to her face that "you don't care about civilians, and that's wrong?" She doesn't need that right now.

As for everybody else: Yeah. Those are good points, and that's what we need to remember to take away from the mission.
 
huhYeahGoodPoint said:
That might have been your justification, but as far as I can tell, before the operation we just weren't thinking about it. I can go back and check, but that's some soul crushing 70 pages to read.
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Oneiros43 said:
If we let everyone else decide we are going to kill all the sailors and sink the boat. The rest of the team besides Maybe Akane have zero problem with morally ambiguous things. I'm ok with having that be the outcome but think we as a community should decide how we want to play
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I tried to get some discussion going but didn't gain any traction. I also didn't have a problem with it so wasn't going to put that much effort in engaging everyone
 
huhYeahGoodPoint said:
And what, tell her to her face that "you don't care about civilians, and that's wrong?" She doesn't need that right now.

As for everybody else: Yeah. Those are good points, and that's what we need to remember to take away from the mission.
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She doesn't care about civilians? She actually thought through the security implication and decided that 60 civilians are worth the Elemental Nations not imploding.

You should ask her for her opinion and not assume that Minami is wrong. Turn it into a real debate.
 
Things we need to do after the mission:
  • Give a full report to J, including all our various fuckups.
  • Finish the beginner seals.
  • Have Kei negotiate for the rest of the team to learn Pangolin Training Jutsu. (We can and should do this ASAP, we don't have to wait until after the mission.)
  • Have Kei ask about pangolin jutsu that are available for purchase (presumably the QMs would prefer to just say "they gave her a catalogue, let the players make and balance jutsu for our aproval and we'll put the acceptable ones in said catalogue")
  • Have Kei contract more pangolins. Get as many different combat specs as possible, to account for the various types of enemy we might fight.
  • Ask J if there are any jutsu or seals that he thinks we should learn, and then go ahead and learn anything he recommends.
 
Added @Radvic's suggestions to the AAR, and expanded on the Akane conversation. I would really like to make sure that my Akane conversation doesn't fuck us over, so please comment.
faflec said:
Here's a basic plan that does nothing but what the mission entails, plus a (mostly-empty) conversation with Akane. Obviously it's boring as shit. Feedback and ideas would be greatly appreciated.

[X] Action Plan: Rationalization
  • General:
    • Best girlfriend is best team leader. She says X? DO X!
    • When moving, minimize chatter in favor of alertness.
  • Main Questline:
      • (Almost) nonstop 15-16hr run back.
      • Break only when we need to replace Skywalkers.
        • Take this time to replenish chakra, food, and water.
        • Noburi can check on the prisoners to ensure they are alive but chakra-drained. Unconscious if appropriate.
        • If SOP, slightly hydrate the prisoners.
      • During one such break, check Goda & his retinue for false teeth/cyanide capsules.
        • Just in case Minami missed it. She did seem out of it.
      • If we MUST stop to sleep, set up a Skytower and sleep. Keep shifts.
      • Drop off Goda and his ninja bodyguards. Also give the intel we recovered.
        • Ask if they want us to wake them up via chakra water.
      • If prompted, give a mission briefing.
      • Collect weapons & food supplies.
        • See if we can get a spyglass or telescope. Ask Mari-sensei or Jiraiya if we get the chance to talk with them.
      • Take some time to rest after our run. Keep shifts.
        • If allowed, sleep in Konoha. Our old apartment, or estate if Jiraiya bought it.
        • If not allowed, head a ways to our destination, set up a Skywalker, and then sleep.
      • Skywalk back to the team.
        • It's a 22 hour run (to Nagi Island, on average). Don't exhaust ourselves with a second all-nighter.
  • Complete an After-Action Report.
    • Do the report after we regroup with the team, as time permits.
    • Keep in mind Minami still considers us to be the Cold Stone Killers/outsiders.
      • Disguising our trump card usages so we might not need to kill witnesses
        • Disguise Pangolins using fur (real, or Henge).
        • Apply Mist first, then Pangolins attack while LOS is blocked using Mist.
      • Timing between the air-team landing and the boat team?
      • Better knowledge of the Pangolin's personal combat ability for better diagnosis of enemy ninja capabilities.
  • Talk with Akane.
    • Do this when we have a break, NOT when we're moving.
    • Be open but respectful. Don't be tactless, not here.
    • Talk about our (Hazou's) feelings regarding what happened.
      • We feel guilty because our long-term plans revolved around destroying the system; now we're complicit in executing dozens of civilians.
      • We understand why it was done (increased risk of Leaf's rivals/Akatsuki finding out), but still hate that we chose killing innocents over the risk of serious failure.
      • We're scared that we'll give up, grow disillusioned, and/or end up becoming just another part of the civilization-eating system.
    • Ask her about Guy's philosophy and YOUTH.
      • How does she reconcile this with what happened?
      • What would Guy do? What would Lee?
    • Give her a hug. Best girlfriend deserves it, and more.
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MadScientist said:
Things we need to do after the mission:
  • Give a full report to J, including all our various fuckups.
  • Finish the beginner seals.
  • Have Kei negotiate for the rest of the team to learn Pangolin Training Jutsu. (We can and should do this ASAP, we don't have to wait until after the mission.)
  • Have Kei ask about pangolin jutsu that are available for purchase (presumably the QMs would prefer to just say "they gave her a catalogue, let the players make and balance jutsu for our aproval and we'll put the acceptable ones in said catalogue")
  • Have Kei contract more pangolins. Get as many different combat specs as possible, to account for the various types of enemy we might fight.
  • Ask J if there are any jutsu or seals that he thinks we should learn, and then go ahead and learn anything he recommends.
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Hazou REALLY needs an emotional detox. Preferably involving the followign:
  • Talking to Mari
  • Talking to Akane
  • Talking to Jiraiya
  • Talking to Gai
And this would be the perfect opportunity to tearfully demand the opportunity to get stronger to prevent such travesties in the future.
 
Kiba said:
She doesn't care about civilians? She actually thought through the security implication and decided that 60 civilians are worth the Elemental Nations not imploding.

You should ask her for her opinion and not assume that Minami is wrong. Turn it into a real debate.
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Um. That part of the plan doesn't execute if no one asks.

The other thing is, as I have spent the last hour or so rather impolitely ranting, we didn't think about what to do with the civilians nearly enough. 60 lives versus the Elemental Nations requires quite a few steps rather than the black and white you present it as, and we didn't put any serious thought towards "how do we reduce the number of civilian deaths" until we realized we were on a boat in the middle of the ocean with 60 prisoners that we really couldn't allow to live due to knowing too much after we revealed it to them.
 
Cariyaga said:
I didn't realize how much I wanted this scene until now. But now I really do. I wonder if we'd have an opportunity to before we leave Leaf again, at the memorial stone?
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Meh, better to take over Mist and do it at their equivalent.

I mean, personally it leaves a bitter taste in my mouth remembering Poppa at the gravestone of an enemy village. Pretty sure that village won't appreciate us remembering an enemy ninja as well.
Oneiros43 said:
Wait he didn't mean resseruct Popa to have a discussion with him?
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shhhhhh :p
 
MadScientist said:
It wasn't weakness that caused this, it was failure to properly analyse what mission success would mean.

I rather think an emotional recovery period goes without saying, though.
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I personally assumed the crew members would all be Yakuza or Yakuza-affiliated, and that the sloop was smaller such that there wouldn't be 60 fucking civilians on it.
Cariyaga said:
Yeeeeah, but given how Hazou's been characterized, it's not likely unless we force him to.
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Fairly certain Jiraiya's seen enough cases of burnout. We're complicit in 6 dozen deaths, if he doesn't give us time off to cope he's a shit Hokage and shit clan leader.

Or, you know, he cares about Naruto more than us. Which probably is the case.
 
Added an AAR and reformatted some things, because I'm a sellout because Radvic and faflec had some good points I wanted to get in.

huhYeahGoodPoint said:
here, have a plan or something:

[X] Action Plan: Sleep Is For The Weak
Objectives:
  • Keep Team Uplift Plus One alive.
  • Keep Team Uplift Plus One functional
  • Keep ourselves oriented to our goal.
  • Keep our teammates oriented to our goal, and shut down unproductive thoughts.
  • Continue the mission.
Actions:
  1. Set off for Leaf village with the captives in tow.
    1. Remind the other team to be careful about their chakra use. Run out thousands of feet in the air without an easy way to replenish it is a Bad Thing.
      1. Tell them we're likely to reach the rendezvouz in two to three days.
    2. Ensure they are secured.
      1. This means unable to form handseals, see, hear, or talk.
      2. Have Noburi take a moment during a break to ensure that Goda can't commit suicide by false teeth, poisoned fingernails or whatnot.
    3. Do not stop to sleep.
      1. If Noburi needs a chakra source, he can drain the two kunoichi as we go along to provide extra chakra.
      2. If we stop to eat, make sure our prisoners have something to drink, and maybe a bite to eat. Ensure that they can be interrogated.
    4. Stay calm. You don't gain anything from a depressive spiral, and besides, they are sixty more promises to carry out your ambition.
      1. You don't have to repress your emotions, but don't stop moving unless you're taking a break.
    5. Noburi carries Goda, Hazou carries the girl that oneshot the Sustainer, and Akane carries her sister.
  2. Talking with our teammates
    1. If they say how could Minami kill those civilians, respond that we understand her viewpoint, why it's wrong, and encourage them to take this as further motivation. DO NOT SAY THIS IN FRONT OF MINAMI
      1. Her mistake was treating civilian lives as a nonfactor - what to do with them was always assumed to be execution, because any infinitesimal risk was too much.
      2. Saying civilian lives are effectively worthless compared to ninja lives is just plain wrong, and goes a long way to explaining why the Liberator was so popular.
      3. This nonchalance towards civilian deaths is exactly what we agreed to stop in that cave all those weeks ago, sitting by a campfire. We swore to make this better, and we are not abandoning the path now because we encountered some difficulty! We agreed that it was reprehensible there, so don't stop seeing it as reprehensible here! We'll aim to fix this all by doing what we can.
      4. If they want reasoning for how more civilian lives could have been saved, point out that we literally picked the point furthest from the coastline, had the pangolins bust into the lower decks despite having Noburi's abilities, and didn't try to disguise pangolin involvement in any way save the fog.
    2. If they say something like how all shinobi should die, or the world would be better off without shinobi, stop them. (this includes us, by the way.)
      1. Chakra beasts roam outside the walls of every hamlet, village, and city. To ignore them is the direst of threats, and to argue for killing all the shinobi would be an argument to end all civilization.
      2. Shinobi have vastly greater powers than simply destruction. Destruction is easy, but chakra makes construction far easier than without. To destroy all farming implements because some wield them as weapons of war would be stupid - but here we are, arguing for the destruction of all high chakra entities.
      3. Just because shinobi are worth something doesn't mean that civilians are worth an infinitesimal amount in comparison, however. That's largely the mistake Minami made.
    3. If they ask us how we are so calm about this, refer to 2.1, or "how is Minami okay with this?"
    4. Remind everyone they did well under the circumstances. DO THIS BEFORE WE SEPERATE! Tell everyone barring extreme circumstances we'll have the full AAR at the rendezvouz site.
      1. The loss of life was really bad, and is something we're going to fight to avoid in the future during planning rather than post battle.
        1. We probably could have avoided killing all of them if we planned to save some as a subgoal, but it was our collective mistake not to treat minimizing civilian deaths as a subgoal during the planning phases.
      2. However, rather than let us be crippled by doubt and depression, we choose to take a lesson from this, and steel our resolve towards our goal - uplift.
      3. Our strength here was in the combat section - we pulled that off flawlessly.
        1. Keiko, your summoning abilities surpassed our expectations. We're proud of you.
        2. Noburi, you executed a near perfect nonlethal takedown of dozens of enemy combatants, including shinobi, of unknown abilities. This achievement cannot be overstated.
      4. You guys were brilliant, and pulled off the plan flawlessly.
  3. Arrival
    1. Hand off the captives.
      1. Ask if they want us to revive them now with chakra water.
    2. Give a debriefing if ordered too.
      1. Mention how the bouncer wants an apartment in Konoha for his services, along with his daughter.
    3. Go to sleep. If there are no places inside Konoha that will take us, go sleep a distance away from the city.
    4. In the morning, pick up some food and weapon supplies.
  4. Rendezvouz
    1. If sleeping outside the city, remember to take shifts. Obviously this is a bad possibility, but a necessary one.
    2. Run for as long as you can before either sixteen hours have passed or Noburi has run down to a liter of water.
      1. Refill on chakra from other sources when we stop.
    3. Sleep in shifts. If we had to sleep in shifts before, last night's first shift is up first, then last shift is up for midnight shift, and then midnight shift is up for last shift.
    4. Finish running to the rendezvouz point.
  5. After Action Report:
    1. We failed to really put thought into how much risk we were willing to take in exchange for how many civilian lives - therefore, by default we assumed no risk could be taken.
      1. It wasn't just "attack in the harbor or not", but even smaller things like "we need to attack the maximum distance from shore" rather than "we attack close to the shore but out of the city's detection radius", and the fact that we considered killing them all rather than simply a majority, and leaving the ones who didn't see us to shipwreck on the shore.
      2. REMEMBER TO EMPHASIZE IT WAS A COLLECTIVE MISTAKE
    2. We didn't put enough thought into concealing our trump cards:
      1. Mist Drain
      2. Pangolins
      3. Skywalkers
    3. The timing was off between the air team and the boat team. We need to practice HALO jumping.
    4. Aside from the OPSEC and civilian lives problem, we pulled that off without a hitch.
  6. Contingencies:
    1. If we see shinobi on the horizons above the clouds, drop as fast as we can while keeping the hostages intact and hide. We do not want to be seen by Akatsuki or the Pangolin Summoner.
      1. If we're near Konoha, attempt to make a break for it. They might be skywalker Leaf troops, but ground level is probably safe.
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Oneiros43 said:
What better way to emotionally recover than be reunited with Mama?
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TBH I'd rather that the first thing Hana heard from Hazou wasn't "Hi! It's so good to see you again! So, uh, on my first mission as a leaf ninja our team murdered, like, sixty helpless civilians in cold blood, and, like, I'm still not really over that."

Better to put off the renunion until Hazou's emotional damage won't poison Hana against Leaf.
 
MadScientist said:
TBH I'd rather that the first thing Hana heard from Hazou wasn't "Hi! It's so good to see you again! So, uh, on my first mission as a leaf ninja our team murdered, like, sixty helpless civilians in cold blood, and, like, I'm still not really over that."

Better to put off the renunion until Hazou's emotional damage won't poison Hana against Leaf.
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72, actually. 60 crew members, 11 Yakuza, and that one guy from the other village who we fed to a literal snake.
 
faflec said:
72, actually. 60 crew members, 11 Yakuza, and that one guy from the other village who we fed to a literal snake.
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Do Yakuza count as civilians? They're not ninja, but they're... well... not terribly civil.

Doesn't make killing them at all okay, but I want to distinguish between organised criminals and random innocents. Hazou is likely to feel much worse about the latter.
 
Hmm. That guy who was literally fed to a snake probably would end up murdering the shopkeeper sooner or later. Well, he would get murdered by a ninja sooner or later.
 
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