Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

[eaglejarl]

@eaglejarl @Velorien @OliWhail I've been thinking about your post on ninja OPSEC and how the team reacted to the last 2 updates. In going back and trying to find the relevant quotes I think I've put together a pretty good argument about how you treated it inconsistently with the worldbuilding you have shown to the playerbase. Relevant quotes and my arguments on thim are below.



So to start of Noburi who is essentially a mid-chunnin here discovers how to drain through the mist. He is currently removed from his clan so has no ability to refer to anyone else who has experience with the technique. An impressive feat. However this was at least well known enough to be a story to the young members of the Wakahisa clan. We can contrast this with the QM description of the Kurosawa's secret technique that to use the Iron Nerve for social situations which has been ruled to only be teachable by people who know it. To me this implies that the mist drain is well known and is actually expected to be discovered by Wakahisa clan members independently.





Above we have the Hokage hustling us out of one of our secret techniques. However no one in the party ever express outrage or shock that this might be done. There is a huge power difference here between the Hokage and Team Uplift so of course we will give up the technique. However there is no in story acknowledgement that the Hokage has blatantly broken with normal traditions to gain an advantage. Kagome never gets upset that his seals have been basically stolen from him. Hazou never grumbles about how his brilliant innovations can just be stolen. Since we continue to work with leaf this suggest that the theft of Team Uplift's secrets is a minor inconvenience



Next we have Jiraiya offering to buy the Mistarators for twenty grand. At this point in the story this is one of Hazou's aces in the hole. This implies to me that Jiraiya considers new seals a commodity to be bought with cash. Mari bargains him up to a larger cash payment but does not try to bargain for new jutsu or seals in return. Like I said this is at the time of the update one of Hazou's 2 techniques. So we have another reference that devalues seals and techniques form something that is worth murdering to keep secret to a simple commodity to be bought and sold



Next we find out that there is precedent for clan techniques being stolen. The Hozuki clan thought that this technique was valuable enough to name after the clan. Note as well that this is a technique that requires a large amount of chakra to use. So is probably limited to high chunnin low jounin members of the clan. This is also a jutsu not a bloodline technique. So it getting out directly empowers people who can learn the technique. In comparasion to the Wakahisa mist drain which if it gets out can only be planned against instead of being used against the clan members. Also any time an enemy ninja secret technique is learned it would be logical for the village to spread that information to all members of the village. Then if any members of a village of is captured the first thing they would spill is any enemy ninja secrets there villages have obtained. If this premise is true that means the Wakahisa mist drain is even less secure since it is a technique that is possible to learn on your own at low chuunin levels



Here we have us offering to trade a secret technique to an ally. Kagome once again expresses no concern about the security risk this entails. We as a playerbase and team uplift does not seem to concerned about the proliferation of skytowers. The general assumption was that since this technique had already been given to leaf that it would spread eventually and that knowledge and use of this technique would spread first to the toads and then to other villages. Once again this was a secret that was known to multiple parties so team uplift did not value it as much. Noburi's mist drain is also a technique that is already known to his clan. There is no way to keep this technique a secret. We also can consider all of the Leaf lives that might be saved if the village knows the details of Mist drain since we are still technically at war with Mist.

Here we once again see that in general team uplift does not value there techniques that highly. Kei was willing to trade 2 valuable seals for a contract and a jutsu. This asymmetrical trade further reinforces the idea that techniques are no more than commodities to be battered. Once again no one says anything about giving up Hazou and Kagome seals. I would also note that she did not bargain for a specific jutsu or ask for any kind of effect. Also on a slightly salty note you still haven't given any specifications on what Pangolin Reach does.

On a coupe final note I would first point out that we trusted Minami with Skywalkers which are much more of a security risk than mist drain. Skywalkers are a huge game changing innovation. Mist drain is a nice technique that if an enemy knows about they can be prepared to counter. The final note is honestly without Hazou, Noburi literally can't mist drain. Without the macerators it is basically an incredibly specialized technique. No one on the team has ever had any problem with Hazou explaining how his seals work which seems like a huge double standard to me.

Overall I think that in the story you have pretty conclusively portrayed techniques as not being as big of a deal. Every time we traded or dealt techniques they were treated as things that aren't that valuable. We were constantly lowballed on their value. So the hivemind accepted that as their value. Then when it would have a negative impact on the hive mind you did a 180 and made them an incredibly big deal. I know you didn't mean to but that is some very inconsistent GMing. Because whichever position you choose team uplift gets screwed.

I feel like this inconsistency though not fair is largely due to the fact that this is a bi-weekly updated work of fiction. I totally believe it was accidental but I feel if you were go back and edit this story you would agree with me

Still much love and appreciation to all your hard work

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First off, you're right that any inconsistencies are due it being serial fiction done by multiple authors. That said, I'm not convinced that this has been terribly inconsistent.

You sold skywalkers to Jiraiya in exchange for adoption into his clan, with the full understanding that skywalkers would become Leaf-general. That was even part of your sales pitch -- that it would help all Leaf ninja.

You shared skywalkers with Minami on the direct order of Jiraiya/the Hokage.

Giving up the skytowers to Hiruzen was force majeure; there was no point in complaining about secret techniques. Furthermore, 5SB is...not widely known, but known. Certainly not secret to Hazō or Kagome. Dealing with Leaf was so advantageous to the team that it would not have made sense to break it off over this.

Keiko bargaining badly with the Pangolins can be put down to a combination of "not good at bargaining" and "primarily concerned about building the relationship and therefore willing to offer some loss leaders." She discussed it with Hazō beforehand. (I don't remember if that was officially shown on camera, but it was the GM assumption.)

The misterators in particular and macerators in general were never really a trump card. They're a neat trick, but not game changing. Obviously Jiraiya is going to lowball you on any offer he makes. It makes perfect sense to sell them because (("positive regard from the Toad Sage" + "money") > "make Jiraiya spend a day figuring out on his own how to take the 'do not chew things up' safeties off a normal storage seal").

I haven't really thought about the Hōzuki's Mantle technique but, off the top of my head: It's probably powerful enough to be kept as a secret technique, but it's also a prime candidate for "build your rep" status: flashy, of situational utility because it's not very mobile, and only available to people with big chakra reserves (usually meaning jōnin). Regardless, given that it's known by an entire foreign clan there isn't much use in Leaf trying to keep it secret; in fact, it's to their benefit to spread it around among Leaf- and Leaf-friendly ninja. Given that it's powerful but mostly defensive it's a good candidate for teaching to a foreign ninja as a significant reward from an (at the time) pleased and benevolent Sannin. (Or, at least, the guy he delegated the teaching to.)

As to Noburi learning the mist drain as a low chūnin, from a Doylist perspective he learned it pre-TGR and we weren't going to take it away afterwards. Had TGR happened up front we probably would have made it take longer to learn. From a Watsonian perspective we're writing it off to "most young Wakahisa spend more time practicing jutsu and skills as opposed to their bloodline." This makes perfect sense -- out of combat you have plenty of time to drain so it doesn't matter if your level isn't that high and in combat Vampiric Dew is usually useless unless you have a misterator or its equivalent. (Which most people don't.)


In closing: thank you for the kind words and it's really flattering that you're invested enough to dig back through the archives like this.

 

[gbear605]

Regardless, given that it's known by an entire foreign clan there isn't much use in Leaf trying to keep it secret; in fact, it's to their benefit to spread it around among Leaf- and Leaf-friendly ninja

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Erm, isn't mist draining known to at least all the adult members of an entire foreign clan, so it would be to Leaf's benefit to spread among Leaf- and Leaf-friendly ninja? I get that Leaf's benefit isn't the exact same as new-clan's benefit, but when your clan head is the Hokage, it pretty much is.

I suppose that it's not as useful, since no one else in Leaf can use it, but if Minami or other Leaf ninja come in contact with any adult Wakahisas, it would be to the clan's benefit for the Leaf ninja to know about this play, at least in a large amount. Does this benefit simply not overweight the benefit of Noburi using it?

EDIT: I'm not arguing that anything should change, I'm simply curious about the reasoning behind this difference.

 

[eaglejarl]

Erm, isn't mist draining known to at least all the adult members of an entire foreign clan, so it would be to Leaf's benefit to spread among Leaf- and Leaf-friendly ninja? I get that Leaf's benefit isn't the exact same as new-clan's benefit, but when your clan head is the Hokage, it pretty much is.

I suppose that it's not as useful, since no one else in Leaf can use it, but if Minami or other Leaf ninja come in contact with any adult Wakahisas, it would be to the clan's benefit for the Leaf ninja to know about this play, at least in a large amount. Does this benefit simply not overweight the benefit of Noburi using it?

EDIT: I'm not arguing that anything should change, I'm simply curious about the reasoning behind this difference.

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No one has told Jiraiya about mist draining yet so he never ordered the information spread around. Why no one has mentioned it is left to the imagination of the reader.

 

[Tua]

@eaglejarl In case you missed this post, did we get the 10 XP? It might be useful for the plan-y guys to know.

 

[Oneiros]

First off, you're right that any inconsistencies are due it being serial fiction done by multiple authors. That said, I'm not convinced that this has been terribly inconsistent.

You sold skywalkers to Jiraiya in exchange for adoption into his clan, with the full understanding that skywalkers would become Leaf-general. That was even part of your sales pitch -- that it would help all Leaf ninja.

You shared skywalkers with Minami on the direct order of Jiraiya/the Hokage.

Giving up the skytowers to Hiruzen was force majeure; there was no point in complaining about secret techniques. Furthermore, 5SB is...not widely known, but known. Certainly not secret to Hazō or Kagome. Dealing with Leaf was so advantageous to the team that it would not have made sense to break it off over this.

Keiko bargaining badly with the Pangolins can be put down to a combination of "not good at bargaining" and "primarily concerned about building the relationship and therefore willing to offer some loss leaders." She discussed it with Hazō beforehand. (I don't remember if that was officially shown on camera, but it was the GM assumption.)

The misterators in particular and macerators in general were never really a trump card. They're a neat trick, but not game changing. Obviously Jiraiya is going to lowball you on any offer he makes. It makes perfect sense to sell them because (("positive regard from the Toad Sage" + "money") > "make Jiraiya spend a day figuring out on his own how to take the 'do not chew things up' safeties off a normal storage seal").

I haven't really thought about the Hōzuki's Mantle technique but, off the top of my head: It's probably powerful enough to be kept as a secret technique, but it's also a prime candidate for "build your rep" status: flashy, of situational utility because it's not very mobile, and only available to people with big chakra reserves (usually meaning jōnin). Regardless, given that it's known by an entire foreign clan there isn't much use in Leaf trying to keep it secret; in fact, it's to their benefit to spread it around among Leaf- and Leaf-friendly ninja. Given that it's powerful but mostly defensive it's a good candidate for teaching to a foreign ninja as a significant reward from an (at the time) pleased and benevolent Sannin. (Or, at least, the guy he delegated the teaching to.)

As to Noburi learning the mist drain as a low chūnin, from a Doylist perspective he learned it pre-TGR and we weren't going to take it away afterwards. Had TGR happened up front we probably would have made it take longer to learn. From a Watsonian perspective we're writing it off to "most young Wakahisa spend more time practicing jutsu and skills as opposed to their bloodline." This makes perfect sense -- out of combat you have plenty of time to drain so it doesn't matter if your level isn't that high and in combat Vampiric Dew is usually useless unless you have a misterator or its equivalent. (Which most people don't.)


In closing: thank you for the kind words and it's really flattering that you're invested enough to dig back through the archives like this.

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I think both of us are probably suffering from fairly strong confirmation biases in this case. The actual facts probably are somewhere in the middle

 

[traverseda]

Let's just say that this kind of treatment of clan secrets took a lot of us by surprise. Sometimes surprising things happen though.

 

[eaglejarl]

@eaglejarl In case you missed this post, did we get the 10 XP? It might be useful for the plan-y guys to know.

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No, sorry. That post doesn't reference a situation where bonus dice are being applied.

I think both of us are probably suffering from fairly strong confirmation biases in this case. The actual facts probably are somewhere in the middle

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Almost certainly. This is usually the case with any debate. :> Also, it's not exactly an even playing field since as a QM I can invent whatever worldbuilding or justifications I want. I'm trying not to do that, though. The reasoning I offered was given in sincerity.



Also, repost from a few pages back in which we solicit the input of the hivemind:

Roll to escape will be TacMov vs TacMov.

We have tentatively put together the following changes to the combat system; we are soliciting player feedback before making them canon. If you can find a problem or a way to break the system, please speak up.

Ranges are:

1. Melee (taijutsu, swords and daggers, etc)
2. Medium (chain weapons, Water Whip)
3. Long (thrown weapons, bows, etc)
4. Escaped (combat and/or pursuit is over, one party has escaped)

Weapons can usually be used at their own range or the one below them, but not two below. (i.e. Medium-ranged weapons can usually be used in Melee; Long-ranged ones can usually be used at Medium range but not Melee range.) Which weapons fall under or not under 'usually' is currently undefined and may end up being situational based on GM decision. (e.g. In some combats we might let someone throw kunai at Melee range if we feel circumstances warrant it, or rule that a meteor hammer cannot be used in Melee range because it's too clumsy.)

Opposed TacMov rolls of various levels of success give different results:

Class A: Range remains unchanged but that person cannot attack you with a targeted attack this round. (i.e. You dodge.)
Class B: Range changes one level in the direction you want. (Closer if you're charging, farther if you're fleeing.) You cannot dodge and change range on the same roll.
Class C: Range changes up to two levels in the direction you choose.

You cannot dodge and change range on the same roll, although it's legal to use a B- or C-class success as an A-class instead.



I need to get back to work now, so I won't be responding until at least this evening. Comments and discussion appreciated, though.

 

[Dissonance]

You cannot dodge and change range on the same roll, although it's legal to use a B- or C-class success as an A-class instead.

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If an opponent is fighting at Melee with a Medium weapon (say, halberd, but don't mind that ninja probably wouldn't have one) and you make a B Class Tacmov roll to escape: Does the opponent take any sort of penalty to hit?

(Assume a spherical cow.)

 

[Raxner]

Ok, I'm not thrilled with the retcon--I thought the original disaster was great as drama, and allowed the story to end as a true old-fashioned tragedy. That said, what do we need to do now? Well, first I need to cancel my no-longer-relevant votes, so

[-] Give Akane The Pin
[-] Hiatus
[-] Lore Update

and

[X] Action Plan: Deescalate, explain, deescalate

Now, Kagome needs to not be in the field. As a Seal master, he's incredibly dangerous, and he's also just borderline sane--and his main contribution to the war effort is in researching and creating seals, not taking messages around. Jiraiya was wrong to send him on this mission, particular with a new team leader, and I don't know why Mari-sensei didn't point that out.

Kagome needs to go home to Leaf, where Jiraiya and Mari-sensei can control him and soothe him, respectively. He needs to go home quickly, and Jiraiya needs to know what happened here so that he can make sure that it never happens again.

But the team cannot physically compel him; at least, not without accompanying him there, and maybe not then. What they can do, maybe, is get him to sit still while Jiraiya sends out people to pick him up and bring him back. In the meanwhile, keep the team physically between Kagome and Minami so that he doesn't get a chance to kill her without killing somebody that he cares about.

So I'm thinking that we keep Minami safe, ask Keiko to contact Jiraiya urgently via summons, brief him on the near-disaster, and get Kagome back in Leaf and safely controlled. Let's call this part "Plan Secure Kagome."

[X] Plan Secure Kagome

Second, Minami presently deeply distrusts us. She is specifically upset that we are just giving Kagome a "slap on the wrist." We need to somehow defuse that--she is our team leader, after all, and we want to live up to the trust Jiraiya put in us. The only thing I can think of is point out to her that Kagome, aside from being Hazo's sensei, is also a jonin seal master, and we are not actually capable of doing more than turning him over to Jiraiya for control and punishment. Also that he is valuable to Leaf's war effort, and it would be a loss to Leaf for him to die. I'm pretty sure that none of these statements would involve breach of infosec, but I may be wrong. So include consulting with Keiko because SHE'S MUCH SMARTER THAN WE ARE even without her Frozen Skein.

We cannot tell her these things in front of Kagome, of course--we need to retain his loyalty to the team, which is the only thing keeping any of us alive right now. So, delay this part until later (which will be after Kagome is off back to Leaf with Jiraiya's people) and then explain the above things to her, if Keiko approves. Call this "Plan Soothe Minami."

[X] Plan Soothe Minami

We also need to contain the fallout to the team of Hazo's opsec slipup. We don't know how to do that, but in former canon, Keiko suggested that she did. So let's consult with Keiko about that, and pre-commit to accepting whatever discipline Jiraiya, our Clan Head, chooses to give us for the breach of infosec. Also promise to run everything that might possibly maybe involve a breach of infosec by her and Noburi before talking with others, including Minami. Call this "Plan Clean Up The Mess."

[X] Plan Clean Up The Mess

BTW,

It's more the fact that you decided to keep so much from canon Naruto... The Uchiha massacre still happening.

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I'm pretty sure it didn't happen, as Lord Uchiha was at the emergency meeting in chapter 124. (Jiraiya's assistant said that he was there before Jiraiya and Team Uplift entered the room, also he was "about to say something" when Jiraiya said that Uchiha Itachi was with the Akatsuki team.)

(Is there any problem suicide can't solve?

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If there is, you're not suiciding hard enough.​

 

[Dark as Silver]

I didn't realise the retcon was edited in so I missed it until now.
Didn't it completely miss the point of the Agency Poll? We were complaining that Hazou was sharing info that was so vital and we didn't realise not that he didn't wake up to stop it.

 

[Veedrac]

@Sigmuldom My response was very tidily preempted by Cariyaga, so feel free to direct disagreement over his points at me, should you wish to do so.

---

@Velorien

My points fall into two buckets, and I fear I didn't make this clear enough in my hasty point-by-point response. These fall roughly into the buckets of

1. claims that are unsound, and thus Kagome doesn't care about them because they aren't true, and
2. claims that seem feasible, but don't justify or explain Kagome's reaction.

For example, if it were true that most ninja have PTSD as a directly consequence of many ninja being sent on suicide missions against far stronger ninja, this could certainly be used to argue some point or the other. However, it doesn't make sense; others have given reasons for this as well as myself, and I believe eaglejarl has retracted the claim.

To be more clear about why I consider this infeasible within the game rules, your system mechanics mean that winners tend to win by large amount with huge probability, except when the two are fairly evenly matched. This means that the solo chance of getting that kill is far less than the incremental improvements to the chance of winning through almost any other means. Trying to send people in to score lucky kills is overwhelmingly unlikely to work, unless the person you're trying to attack is incompetent.

The example of Jiraiya is a good example of this mechanic in practice. You say

What makes you think you were unknowns to him at the point when he first interacted with you?

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but, indeed, we were actually actively known to be hostile in our first interaction, where Jiraiya attacked a prepared sealsmaster head-on. I believe there was even a rule specifically against doing that! He clearly wasn't aware of our loadout, as we later surprised him with at least some of it, and it's hard to imagine a case where our team would have had a better chance at a lucky shot.

As an example of the other, you say

You assume [that mist drain is useless in an unprepared defensive situation]. Noburi reinvented it on his own and knows nothing about what his clan can do with it. For all he knows, he might just have unlocked the first step of what is actually a whole mist drain tech tree.

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Here I wasn't talking about how this legitimately might affect how people keep some abilities in reserve; I certainly think that's a good idea should there actually be doubt about Minami's affiliation. Rather, I was talking specifically about Kagome's risk assessment with regards to what we specifically gave away, where this claim does hold and the existence of potential extensions to this ability only serves to marginalize the information we leaked.

Note that I maintain that it is known that we didn't give away many details about mist drain. Whilst the actual conversation is not explicitly written, eaglejarl has told us the nature of what happened, and to my best recall he said that the information we gave away was inferred from the plan, not explicitly stated, and that Hazō gave away this information faster than the team could react to stop him. I don't see an uncontrived way of that leaking more than the skills relevant to this particular mission.

I don't agree with your dismissal of the contrast I brought up,

Pandā has no particular tactical value (sorry, little guy), skywalkers were shared with the entirety of Leaf as a political move, Hazō's mysterious seal magic was never shared with anyone.

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since again this is relevant to Kagome's assesment of our team's safety. Knowing Keiko's the pangolin summoner is far more important from a risk perspective, since it makes her a target for assasinations. That is far from a trivial risk given how hated the pangolins are about to be. Skywalkers were shared with Leaf on purpose, yes, but there's no particular reason that politics should take specific priveledge over team dynamics, especially not to Kagome. Why Hazō can copy seals quickly was never revealed, but that doesn't stop the risk from this information leaking exceeding the risk from mist drain leaking.

My point here is that the risk we're taking on from leaking these things far exceeds the risk from leaking Noburi's mist drain. The team should not be treating this leak as a separate and disjoint risk that significantly affects the risk Minami poses, because she's already a risk for knowing what she does. Either that risk has been accepted, in which case marginal changes are questions of reasoned debate, not turning points, or the risk has not been accepted, in which case she should have been pink dust long, long ago

I'm going to cut the argument here, because the rest of it was more cleaning up the edge cases. If you disagree with the argument I've presented, they're not going to convince you, and if you agree then they're not really important anyway.

 

[Inferno Vulpix]

I didn't realise the retcon was edited in so I missed it until now.
Didn't it completely miss the point of the Agency Poll? We were complaining that Hazou was sharing info that was so vital and we didn't realise not that he didn't wake up to stop it.

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I thing the agency poll was separate from the retcon. If the QMs were willing to apply the new levels of agency backwards Hazou would've never made the mistake in the first place, but the retcon was based on the idea that, despite pre-poll levels of agency leading to the mistake happening, Hazou would've noticed that something was up with Kagome and thus been able to prevent it rather than missing what should be fairly easy to spot clues, given Kagome.

 

[HoratioVonBecker]

Honestly, the only other retcon I'd want is to switch Keiko's hypothesis from "Kagome is attempting murder over clan secrets" to "Minami knows we're the Cold Stone Killers, Kagome knows that's a stupid risk to leave hanging, it's really a pity that he alienated her like this because now we can't just earn her trust". Keiko's smart, and the latter is a more obvious hypothesis given the observed evidence.

 

[eaglejarl]

I didn't realise the retcon was edited in so I missed it until now.
Didn't it completely miss the point of the Agency Poll? We were complaining that Hazou was sharing info that was so vital and we didn't realise not that he didn't wake up to stop it.

Click to shrink...

The agency poll applies going forward. We retconned the minimum amount, which was "Hazō noticed there was a problem and stopped Kagome."

 

[Inferno Vulpix]

If Minami brings up the 'Stone Cold Killer' thing, express bewilderment, then sorry resignation that you've blown yet another secret.

Click to shrink...

The last chapter ended with Minami referring to us as Cold Stone Killers in front of everyone. If the team didn't know Minami had it figured out, they do now, though from the things we all bragged about just before setting out it shouldn't be any surprise that she knows even without Hazou's loose lips. We can still apologize, but waiting until Minami mentions it again would be out of place.

 

[eaglejarl]

If an opponent is fighting at Melee with a Medium weapon (say, halberd, but don't mind that ninja probably wouldn't have one) and you make a B Class Tacmov roll to escape: Does the opponent take any sort of penalty to hit?

(Assume a spherical cow.)

Click to shrink...

I'm not quite clear on who has the halberd here but no, we probably wouldn't go to that level of detail.

 

[Dissonance]

we probably wouldn't go to that level of detail.

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...I keep assuming one round of rolls is six seconds.
Damn D&D background tripping me up. Whoops.
Weapon-spec halberd-wielder would be a cool npc.
And the person with the Medium range (halberd, etc.) is the person on offense, the other is the one escaping.

 

[Restinan]

I've been thinking things over a bit, and I don't think Noburi's ability to drain through mist was actually a valuable secret to keep. Obviously we fucked up by not consulting Noburi first regardless, but I don't think we've actually harmed our clan much or at all by doing so. In fact, making the ability known may actually help our clan.

Draining through mist is a very valuable ability for Noburi to have, but what makes it valuable, and what uses does the ability best serve? Draining through mist allows Noburi to fight for longer periods of time without running out of chakra, and allows him to end fights with close to full chakra, allowing him to help the team either recharge or flee. The ability also allows Noburi to sense the amount of chakra his enemies possess and what direction they are in, helping him to fight effectively in thick mist others would struggle in. Combine that with the stealth buff of skywalkers and you get the ability to imitate Zabuza, with the added benefit that every second your enemies are looking for you they are losing chakra. And, obviously, it allows Noburi to drain the chakra of his enemies when they aren't on or in water. However, draining takes time, and is in some sense an attrition technique. Suddenly opening up on draining people isn't usually going to turn the tide of battle in a way that wouldn't have been better served by simply draining people from the start. This isn't to say that suddenly draining someone at an opportune moment couldn't effect the course of the battle, simply that it isn't going to take someone down in mere moments, what you would want in a trump card. If someone is a second away from killing Noburi or someone he cares about, draining them probably isn't going to put them down in time. For example, he couldn't have used the ability to stop Mari from dying in Hot Springs, or suddenly broken in out in the fight in Mountain after it was clear things were going south. In both cases, he would have been best served draining from the start, which could have changed the overall flow of the battle significantly.

So, in summary, the ability to drain people through mist is something best used from as early on in the fight as possible to maximize chakra drained. In nearly any case where suddenly draining someone mid-fight would be helpful it would have been better to simply drain them from the start. Extrapolating from that, Noburi's ability is only useful as a trump card in fights we will know are incredibly difficult beforehand, so he can use it from the start. Thus, if Noburi keeps the ability secret he risks a medium-difficulty fight unexpectedly turning against him.

So, I see two counterfactual worlds here. In one Noburi keeps the ability secret. While he's doing so both he and any team he's with have a higher risk of death on mid-risk missions, but if they know beforehand that they're going into an unusually tough fight Noburi can decide to break the ability out. Eventually Noburi uses the ability on a team that isn't entirely composed of his clan and the secret gets out. Before that, he has a higher chance of dying all round in exchange for a trump card only useful if he knows he's going need it in advance. Keeping it secret isn't particularly useful because he's not going to make it to the point that he's famous enough that people would know his abilities in advance without having to use it, and before that it doesn't matter if it's technically known. In the other world, he uses the ability from the start. It boosts his rep significantly, and greatly decreases the chance of death on his missions. He bases his entire ability set around it from the start. The clan as a whole is known to be more powerful. In exchange, he loses the ability to surprise some people with the capability, but the ability to make use of Mist Draining in all of his fights increases his chance of survival overall.

I don't think he gains anything worthwhile from the first scenario. Keeping the ability secret to use in case of emergency won't really work, as in any case where suddenly being able to drain through mist would be helpful it would be a better idea to just burn the fucker with a macerator. It would be different if that was the only trump card Noburi had, but he has hundreds of explosive tags, macerators, and the expectation that Hazou will come up with even more things along those lines in the future. It makes much more sense for Noburi to base his entire style around draining through mist, meaning the secret that he can wasn't particularly valuable in the first place. If he does so, the fact that he can sense and drain chakra through mist is going to be common knowledge anyway, so Minami's understanding of his abilities wouldn't be harmful.

None of this is to say we didn't err in not talking to Noburi before letting Minami know of his ability. From what I can tell Noburi would be best served by making Mist Draining a cornerstone of his fighting style that he uses more often than Water Whip, but that should have been his choice. However, I don't believe the clan as a whole or Noburi in particular are worse off for Minami knowing this. Thus, the main thing we've done is harmed our relationship with our teammates. Damage control thus should be focused on that aspect of our mistake.

EDIT: I had actually already been thinking of Mist Draining as one of the building blocks of Noburi's style, actually. Not utilizing something that gamebreaking as much as possible would be a terrible waste. I had basically already assumed that Noburi would be using it like that, and I wouldn't be surprised if that was common among many members of the Hivemind. Could explain why nobody noticed the problem with using Noburi's Mist Drain ability: we had all assumed that Noburi was already going to use it in any fight we got into, and thus it wasn't really a secret.

 

[Cariyaga]

Two things that we can suggest to make it up to Noburi:

• Draining people as they chakra boost/use techniques to prevent that (easily-enough modeled as reducing their dice pool by the appropriate amount or outright preventing technique use if sufficiently-high-level Vamp Dew)
• Attempting to learn to use Medical Ninjutsu through water at a distance. This one'll probably be significantly harder than the above, but even at his current level of medical ninjutsu, I expect he'd be able to fuck people up if he figured this out at all.

e: Obviously not immediately. Privacy is necessary for these.

 

[Restinan]

In unrelated news, I just did some math and Noburi is 825 EXP away from 60 dice via Water Whip 49 and Hozuki's Mantle 33. Hazou is 941 EXP away from 60 dice via Taijutsu 48, Roki 12, and Deception 24. Akane needs to earn 770 EXP to get 60 dice against a Taijutsu specced Jonin with 60 dice via STR+STA 23 and Youthful Fist 8. It technically costs her 924, 770 is what she would need to earn to have enough Conditioning and Normal EXP together to get 60 dice. From hereon out, if what we want is more combat dice for Akane it's actually optimal to put EXP into STR+STA before both are at 28. Getting Keiko to Weapons 60 will cost 1694 EXP. It's becoming increasingly apparent Keiko urgently needs a Weapons Style.

 

[Cariyaga]

In unrelated news, I just did some math and Noburi is 825 EXP away from 60 dice via Water Whip 49 and Hozuki's Mantle 33. Hazou is 941 EXP away from 60 dice via Taijutsu 48, Roki 12, and Deception 24. Akane needs to earn 770 EXP to get 60 dice against a Taijutsu specced Jonin with 60 dice via STR+STA 23 and Youthful Fist 8. It technically costs her 924, 770 is what she would need to earn to have enough Conditioning and Normal EXP together to get 60 dice. From hereon out, if what we want is more combat dice for Akane it's actually optimal to put EXP into STR+STA before both are at 28. Getting Keiko to Weapons 60 will cost 1694 EXP. It's becoming increasingly apparent Keiko urgently needs a Weapons Style.

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Yay math! Math is fun! (especially math that makes Akane a combat god)

e: Worth noting re: Akane's stats is that Multiple Combat bonuses are only based off of base Taijutsu dice, so she'll be less useful toward the team if we go that build, but I think it's still worth it.

 

[Restinan]

e: Worth noting re: Akane's stats is that Multiple Combat bonuses are only based off of base Taijutsu dice, so she'll be less useful toward the team if we go that build, but I think it's still worth it.

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I wasn't aware this was the case. Would this mean Roki also doesn't count for Multiple Combat bonuses?

 

[Cariyaga]

I wasn't aware this was the case. Would this mean Roki also doesn't count for Multiple Combat bonuses?

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Correct, as far as I'm aware.

 

[gbear605]

I've been thinking things over a bit, and I don't think Noburi's ability to drain through mist was actually a valuable secret to keep. Obviously we fucked up by not consulting Noburi first regardless, but I don't think we've actually harmed our clan much or at all by doing so. In fact, making the ability known may actually help our clan.

Draining through mist is a very valuable ability for Noburi to have, but what makes it valuable, and what uses does the ability best serve? Draining through mist allows Noburi to fight for longer periods of time without running out of chakra, and allows him to end fights with close to full chakra, allowing him to help the team either recharge or flee. The ability also allows Noburi to sense the amount of chakra his enemies possess and what direction they are in, helping him to fight effectively in thick mist others would struggle in. Combine that with the stealth buff of skywalkers and you get the ability to imitate Zabuza, with the added benefit that every second your enemies are looking for you they are losing chakra. And, obviously, it allows Noburi to drain the chakra of his enemies when they aren't on or in water. However, draining takes time, and is in some sense an attrition technique. Suddenly opening up on draining people isn't usually going to turn the tide of battle in a way that wouldn't have been better served by simply draining people from the start. This isn't to say that suddenly draining someone at an opportune moment couldn't effect the course of the battle, simply that it isn't going to take someone down in mere moments, what you would want in a trump card. If someone is a second away from killing Noburi or someone he cares about, draining them probably isn't going to put them down in time. For example, he couldn't have used the ability to stop Mari from dying in Hot Springs, or suddenly broken in out in the fight in Mountain after it was clear things were going south. In both cases, he would have been best served draining from the start, which could have changed the overall flow of the battle significantly.

So, in summary, the ability to drain people through mist is something best used from as early on in the fight as possible to maximize chakra drained. In nearly any case where suddenly draining someone mid-fight would be helpful it would have been better to simply drain them from the start. Extrapolating from that, Noburi's ability is only useful as a trump card in fights we will know are incredibly difficult beforehand, so he can use it from the start. Thus, if Noburi keeps the ability secret he risks a medium-difficulty fight unexpectedly turning against him.

So, I see two counterfactual worlds here. In one Noburi keeps the ability secret. While he's doing so both he and any team he's with have a higher risk of death on mid-risk missions, but if they know beforehand that they're going into an unusually tough fight Noburi can decide to break the ability out. Eventually Noburi uses the ability on a team that isn't entirely composed of his clan and the secret gets out. Before that, he has a higher chance of dying all round in exchange for a trump card only useful if he knows he's going need it in advance. Keeping it secret isn't particularly useful because he's not going to make it to the point that he's famous enough that people would know his abilities in advance without having to use it, and before that it doesn't matter if it's technically known. In the other world, he uses the ability from the start. It boosts his rep significantly, and greatly decreases the chance of death on his missions. He bases his entire ability set around it from the start. The clan as a whole is known to be more powerful. In exchange, he loses the ability to surprise some people with the capability, but the ability to make use of Mist Draining in all of his fights increases his chance of survival overall.

I don't think he gains anything worthwhile from the first scenario. Keeping the ability secret to use in case of emergency won't really work, as in any case where suddenly being able to drain through mist would be helpful it would be a better idea to just burn the fucker with a macerator. It would be different if that was the only trump card Noburi had, but he has hundreds of explosive tags, macerators, and the expectation that Hazou will come up with even more things along those lines in the future. It makes much more sense for Noburi to base his entire style around draining through mist, meaning the secret that he can wasn't particularly valuable in the first place. If he does so, the fact that he can sense and drain chakra through mist is going to be common knowledge anyway, so Minami's understanding of his abilities wouldn't be harmful.

None of this is to say we didn't err in not talking to Noburi before letting Minami know of his ability. From what I can tell Noburi would be best served by making Mist Draining a cornerstone of his fighting style that he uses more often than Water Whip, but that should have been his choice. However, I don't believe the clan as a whole or Noburi in particular are worse off for Minami knowing this. Thus, the main thing we've done is harmed our relationship with our teammates. Damage control thus should be focused on that aspect of our mistake.

EDIT: I had actually already been thinking of Mist Draining as one of the building blocks of Noburi's style, actually. Not utilizing something that gamebreaking as much as possible would be a terrible waste. I had basically already assumed that Noburi would be using it like that, and I wouldn't be surprised if that was common among many members of the Hivemind. Could explain why nobody noticed the problem with using Noburi's Mist Drain ability: we had all assumed that Noburi was already going to use it in any fight we got into, and thus it wasn't really a secret.

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This is very much what I had thought about Noburi's style.

I suggest that in the next couple of updates we discuss this point with him (with CCnJ), both to hopefully make him less angry toward us and hopefully make the whole clan more powerful in the end. Plus, if he decides that he wants it to be relatively public, then we don't have to deal with keeping Minami silent.

@eaglejarl @Velorien If Noburi hypothetically were to be convinced that he should use mist draining openly, would it be a discussion he would want to have with Jiraiya (as clan head) first, or a decision he could make on his own?

 

[eaglejarl]

@eaglejarl @Velorien If Noburi hypothetically were to be convinced that he should use mist draining openly, would it be a discussion he would want to have with Jiraiya (as clan head) first, or a decision he could make on his own?

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Hazō suspects that Noburi would feel that since it's his bloodline it's his decision.