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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Enjou said:
We need to do something to ensure that both ensures Kagome understands that he can't attempt this again and that shows Minami that we're serious. I'm open to other ideas, but she's not likely to let us release Kagome unless we defuse him more than his reluctant "fine".
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We could tell him exactly what would happen, i.e., the original end of the last chapter?
 
Another thing we could consider... Getting Kagome therapy before he ever leaves the village again. Maybe not Yamanaka-technique-style therapy, but something. Akane could vouch for how much of a punishment that is to him.

e:

faflec said:
We are not threatening ritual suicide, guys.
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A little ritual suicide never hurt anybody. *laughs in Hidan*

e2: Besides, we're not threatening ritual suicide, we're promising it.
 
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Here's another idea to kick around:

Once we de-escalate and get back to Leaf, we(Hazo) talk to the Yamanaka about how we personally can give Kagome therapy, since there's already the basic level of trust and rapport there with us.
 
Cariyaga said:
Are you an expert? Legitimate question, not sarcasm; if not, I could probably get one's opinion on the matter.
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No, but everything I've heard about any form of therapy has it depend on cooperation and trust between the patient and the therapist. In particular, I believe the treatments for PTSD are things like going over traumatic experiences in a safe environment to reduce the negative emotional associations. That's really not something you can force on someone from an adversarial position. At most, we could say that Kagome isn't fit for duty until he passes a psych screen, but if he doesn't think he has a problem he's unlikely to get any better ("stinking ninja stinkers trying to get me to let down my guard...") and I'm not sure having him in the village is any less problematic.
 
Well, given that Jiraiya's clan is allied with the Nara is allied with the Yamanaka, we might be able to get Mari non-technique-level therapy training from the Yamanaka?
 
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Ok, I've put together a plan. I think there can only really be one big scene here in this next update, which is defusing the situation. A big thing we have to do here is defuse both Kagome and explain why Kagome did what he did. We'll need to talk about other stuff later, but all that hinges on how Minami reacts to our explanation.

[X] Action Plan: Explanations and Apologies

Goals
  1. Survive
  2. Ensure nobody on the team dies, including Minami
  3. Resolve as much of the problems caused by this as possible
Method:
  1. Hazou will approach this situation by speaking as sincerely as possible, without giving away any further clan secrets in the process. He uses CCnJ as appropriate.
  2. Hazou asks to be allowed to speak.
    • Not moving hands too fast, give Minami the Nara hand sign for 'you need to hear this'
    • If Minami is hesitant about allowing it, Hazou notes that she has both him and Kagome in her prism and that you are going to act on the presumption that she can kill you with a thought. She won't lose that by allowing him a chance to explain the situation.
    • Note that he wants to address a number of things, and that some of them will require some lead-up.
  3. Hazou addresses Kagome first to ensure he will not attempt to attack Minami again.
    • Hazou tells Kagome that he is a member of his family, that he loves him very much, and that he'd lay down his life for Kagome's without hesitation, but that Hazou has to protect the other members of his family too, even if that's from Kagome himself. Not only was trying to kill Minami for Hazou's mistake morally wrong, it could have resulted in any range of disasters that could include the entire group being branded traitors and killed by Leaf. Akane is right that this was a betrayal, and it is only because Hazou and the others know that he was doing it in a misguided attempt to protect them that they are willing to talk this over rather than treat him like a traitor. And that is exactly what will happen if he tries to hurt Minami again, and that is the last thing that Hazou wants. Hazou tears up a bit, and begs Kagome not to break the team's trust like this again, and says it would destroy Hazou to have to treat Kagome as an enemy - he doesn't want to lose any of his family ever again.
    • Hazou collects himself, and asks Minami if it would be acceptable for him to release his hold Kagome and have both of Kagome and himself sit down in their current spots inside the prism. Hazou will make no complaints if she denies the request and complies with any alternatives to positioning and whatnot.
  4. Hazou gives Minami an apology for the danger she was put in, gives one to the others and admits that this is entirely his fault, and explains why it happened.
    • Hazou should not have revealed a clan secret to her over a mission that could have still be handled easily without it given the targets where civilians, but for a number of reasons it did not occur to him that it would be a problem.
      • Hazou's mother was exiled from his clan for marrying for love, and he was raised by her instead of the clan. While he was taught about clan secrets, he doesn't have the gut level way of thinking about it that those raised in clans do since he was taught that his highest loyalty was to his village rather than his clan.
      • Hazou is still in some ways thinking like he was before he was accepted into Leaf. His team relied on one another for survival at a very high level because they didn't have the support of a village to fall back on, and that lead to an implicit level of trust being built into the team dynamic that meant that revealing clan secrets to one another was not considered the taboo it normally would have.
      • Minami seems like a generally good and honest person and Jiraiya appointed her team leader, and Jiraiya is also someone Hazou trusts to have the team's bests interests in mind at this point. Regardless of whatever problems there might have been in integrating her into the team dynamic, she seemed trustworthy and that made Hazou put his guard down on a matter he shouldn't have.
    • Hazou acknowledges that none of the above absolves him for his fuck up - no amount of excuses will change that this is his fault.
    • Hazou explains a bit about the team's history to give Minami some context about why they became missing-nin in the first place, and how it lead to this situation. You're not bad people, just people who were dealt a bad hand and have been coping with it as best you can, even if you make big mistakes sometimes.
      • How the team was tricked into becoming missing-nin by a Mist jounin who had aspirations of starting his own village and becoming a Kage.
      • How Akane was tricked by an academy instructor and forced to flee, and how the team found her and convinced her to come with them, and how she eventually got reinstated once her innocence was proven.
      • And most importantly, Kagome. The team found him hiding out in the woods - he had been there alone, completely isolated from other people and never having spoken to another soul in the fifteen years he was there for. The group still don't fully know why he was there, and they don't pry because talking about it makes him unhappy and withdrawn, but whatever it was involved a great deal of trauma and the loss of probably everyone he cared about, and he only was willing to leave with the team because of the whole Liberator fiasco bringing in hunter-nin to Iron from all over the Elemental Nations. Earning Kagome's loyalty took several months, but there's nobody more loyal to your group than he is.
        • Because of his circumstances, Kagome is extremely paranoid and has issues interacting with people. He's fearful of any possible threats, and his solution to most problems is to blow them up. Even so, his isolation made him very lonely, and becoming a part of your team helped him with that a lot. Kagome very much did not want to come to Leaf, because he was afraid - not just for himself, but for his team. This was not helped by the fact that the last time Jiraiya had let your team into Leaf that your big fat mouth caused him to put the team into a kill box before ultimately kicking your group, sans Akane, out of the village.
        • And that's ultimately where the problem is - Kagome is scared shitless that he's going to lose his new family, and the stress of coming to Leaf has affected him adversely, so he's desperate to make sure nothing happens to his precious people. When Hazou revealed a clan secret to Minami without thinking about it, he just wanted to protect Noburi, and his mental state made him make an extremely poor judgement call in how to do that, because he really isn't in his right mind right now. He's not evil, or even crazy, but maybe he's... broken. Most ninja are at least a little broken given the lives they live, and Hazou admits he's no exception to this given his obsession with lists to try to bring order to a chaotic world he can't fully control and his big mouth that keeps getting the people he cares about into trouble, but Kagome has had it worse than most, and it's why your group is a lot more lenient with him than they would be with anyone else.
    • Hazou acknowledges that there will need to be discipline for this, both for him and Kagome, from both the standpoint of the team including Minami and as an inter-clan matter. The matter of the exposed clan secret will also need to be addressed, but you think that it's something that can be resolved without too many problems. However, those things can only happen if everyone can sit down as a group and discuss it without the prospect of imminent hostilities.
  5. Hazou is finished saying his piece, and let's Minami make her response, whatever it may be.
 
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Enjou said:
Ok, I've put together a plan. I think there can only really be one big scene here in this next update, which is defusing the situation. A big thing we have to do here is defuse both Kagome and explain why Kagome did what he did. We'll need to talk about other stuff later, but all that hinges on how Minami reacts to our explanation.

[X] Action Plan: Explanations and Apologies

Goals
  1. Survive
  2. Ensure nobody on the team dies, including Minami
  3. Resolve as much of the problems caused by this as possible
Method:
  1. Hazou will approach this situation by speaking as sincerely as possible, without giving away any further clan secrets in the process. He uses CCnJ as appropriate.
  2. Hazou asks to be allowed to speak.
    • Not moving hands too fast, give Minami the Nara hand sign for 'you need to hear this'
    • If Minami is hesitant about allowing it, Hazou notes that she has both him and Kagome in her prism and that you are going to act on the presumption that she can kill you with a thought. She won't lose that by allowing him a chance to explain the situation.
    • Note that he wants to address a number of things, and that some of them will require some lead-up.
  3. Hazou addresses Kagome first to ensure he will not attempt to attack Minami again.
    • Hazou tells Kagome that he is a member of his family, that he loves him very much, and that he'd lay down his life for Kagome's without hesitation, but that Hazou has to protect the other members of his family too, even if that's from Kagome himself. Not only was trying to kill Minami for Hazou's mistake morally wrong, it could have resulted in any range of disasters that could include the entire group being branded traitors and killed by Leaf. Akane is right that this was a betrayal, and it is only because Hazou and the others know that he was doing it in a misguided attempt to protect them that they are willing to talk this over rather than treat him like a traitor. And that is exactly what will happen if he tries to hurt Minami again, and that is the last thing that Hazou wants. Hazou tears up a bit, and begs Kagome not to break the team's trust like this again, and says it would destroy Hazou to have to treat Kagome as an enemy - he doesn't want to lose any of his family ever again.
    • Hazou collects himself, and asks Minami if it would be acceptable for him to release his hold Kagome and have both of Kagome and himself sit down in their current spots inside the prism. Hazou will make no complaints if she denies the request and complies with any alternatives to positioning and whatnot.
  4. Hazou gives Minami an apology for the danger she was put in, gives one to the others and admits that this is entirely his fault, and explains why it happened.
    • Hazou should not have revealed a clan secret to her over a mission that could have still be handled easily without it given the targets where civilians, but for a number of reasons it did not occur to him that it would be a problem.
      • Hazou's mother was exiled from his clan for marrying for love, and he was raised by her instead of the clan. While he was taught about clan secrets, he doesn't have the gut level way of thinking about it that those raised in clans do since he was taught that his highest loyalty was to his village rather than his clan.
      • Hazou is still in some ways thinking like he was before he was accepted into Leaf. His team relied on one another for survival at a very high level because they didn't have the support of a village to fall back on, and that lead to an implicit level of trust being built into the team dynamic that meant that revealing clan secrets to one another was not considered the taboo it normally would have.
      • Minami seems like a generally good and honest person and Jiraiya appointed her team leader, and Jiraiya is also someone Hazou trusts to have the team's bests interests in mind at this point. Regardless of whatever problems there might have been in integrating her into the team dynamic, she seemed trustworthy and that made Hazou put his guard down on a matter he shouldn't have.
    • Hazou acknowledges that none of the above absolves him for his fuck up - no amount of excuses will change that this is his fault.
    • Hazou explains a bit about the team's history to give Minami some context about why they became missing-nin in the first place, and how it lead to this situation. You're not bad people, just people who were dealt a bad hand and have been coping with it as best you can, even if you make big mistakes sometimes.
      • How the team was tricked into becoming missing-nin by a Mist jounin who had aspirations of starting his own village and becoming a Kage.
      • How Akane was tricked by an academy instructor and forced to flee, and how the team found her and convinced her to come with them, and how she eventually got reinstated once her innocence was proven.
      • And most importantly, Kagome. The team found him hiding out in the woods - he had been there alone, completely isolated from other people and never having spoken to another soul in the fifteen years he was there for. The group still don't fully know why he was there, and they don't pry because talking about it makes him unhappy and withdrawn, but whatever it was involved a great deal of trauma and the loss of probably everyone he cared about, and he only was willing to leave with the team because of the whole Liberator fiasco bringing in hunter-nin to Iron from all over the Elemental Nations. Earning Kagome's loyalty took several months, but there's nobody more loyal to your group than he is.
        • Because of his circumstances, Kagome is extremely paranoid and has issues interacting with people. He's fearful of any possible threats, and his solution to most problems is to blow them up. Even so, his isolation made him very lonely, and becoming a part of your team helped him with that a lot. Kagome very much did not want to come to Leaf, because he was afraid - not just for himself, but for his team. This was not helped by the fact that the last time Jiraiya had let your team into Leaf that your big fat mouth caused him to put the team into a kill box before ultimately kicking your group, sans Akane, out of the village.
        • And that's ultimately where the problem is - Kagome is scared shitless that he's going to lose his new family, and the stress of coming to Leaf has affected him adversely, so he's desperate to make sure nothing happens to them. When Hazou revealed a clan secret to Minami without thinking about it, he just wanted to protect Noburi, and his mental state made him make an extremely poor judgement call in how to do that. He's not evil, or even crazy, but maybe he's... broken. Most ninja are at least a little broken given the lives they live, and Hazou admits he's no exception to this given his obsession with lists to try to bring order to a chaotic world he can't fully control and his big mouth that keeps getting the people he cares about into trouble, but Kagome has had it worse than most, and it's why your group is a lot more lenient with him than they would be with anyone else.
    • Hazou acknowledges that there will need to be discipline for this, both for him and Kagome, from both the standpoint of the team including Minami and as an inter-clan matter. The matter of the exposed clan secret will also need to be addressed, but you think that it's something that can be resolved without too many problems. However, those things can only happen if everyone can sit down as a group and discuss it without the prospect of imminent hostilities.
  5. Hazou is finished saying his piece, and let's Minami make her response, whatever it may be.
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We should ask Team Uplift's permission to explain our history before we do so. It's possible someone will object, and recent events have shown that running things by the rest of our team before we do things is a very good idea. I wouldn't be too surprised if there's a good reason why that would be a mistake, but I'm currently working on too little sleep to work out whether any salient downsides exist myself.
 
Dissonance said:
Reformation is a better goal than punishment, imo.

(But maybe just a little bit of reformation? I like Kagome-who-likes-explosions. Kagome-who-explodes-teammates.... Eh....)
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Reformation isn't the same thing as therapy, and still requires the cooperation of the subject to some degree.

Unless you're saying reformation, not punishment, should be the goal of therapy? Because I agree.
 
Restinan said:
We should ask Team Uplift's permission to explain our history before we do so. It's possible someone will object, and recent events have shown that running things by the rest of our team before we do things is a very good idea. I wouldn't be too surprised if there's a good reason why that would be a mistake, but I'm currently working on too little sleep to work out whether any salient downsides exist myself.
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This is a somewhat fair point, but at the same time we're not exactly in a good position to ask first - we need to defuse this situation so that Minami doesn't kill anyone. How would we really ask in detail regarding what we can reveal when we can't actually talk with them privately? For the most part it's just a brief history of Team Uplift that doesn't reveal too many personal details, and with Kagome I think he's lost his right to privacy in this regard, especially since it's necessary to explain why Kagome did what he did and why the team is willing to be forgiving about it.
 
@eaglejarl @Velorien @OliWhail I've been thinking about your post on ninja OPSEC and how the team reacted to the last 2 updates. In going back and trying to find the relevant quotes I think I've put together a pretty good argument about how you treated it inconsistently with the worldbuilding you have shown to the playerbase. Relevant quotes and my arguments on thim are below.

eaglejarl said:
Carefully, he reformed his Water Whip and stretched it out in front of himself. He didn't reach it into the river, just extended it forward through the mist. Very gently he wrapped his chakra into the 'calling' form, the key that unlocked his family's gift.

Tiny threads of chakra flowed to him from the insects that flitted hither and yon through the morning mist.

For three long minutes, Noburi sat wide-eyed, practicing a technique that many of his peers had thought was only a story.
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So to start of Noburi who is essentially a mid-chunnin here discovers how to drain through the mist. He is currently removed from his clan so has no ability to refer to anyone else who has experience with the technique. An impressive feat. However this was at least well known enough to be a story to the young members of the Wakahisa clan. We can contrast this with the QM description of the Kurosawa's secret technique that to use the Iron Nerve for social situations which has been ruled to only be teachable by people who know it. To me this implies that the mist drain is well known and is actually expected to be discovered by Wakahisa clan members independently.



Velorien said:
"I understand that the Sarubetsu terrain is flat and lacking in concealment. What technique did you use to identify Arikada from long range without revealing your location?"

"High-altitude observation," Inoue-sensei said reluctantly.

The Hokage's eyebrows rose. "High-altitude observation? How did you achieve something like that on flat terrain?"

"With respect, sir," Inoue-sensei said, "we would prefer not to discuss our methods with a third party."

"I'm afraid I must insist," the Hokage said. "High-altitude observation is a known counter to Hidden Leaf's concealment strategy. We need to be able to anticipate any means of achieving it."

Inoue-sensei glanced at Hazō. Hazō did not want to make the Hokage "insist" further.

"We constructed a watchtower," Hazō explained, feeling a brief thrill of satisfaction at Jiraiya and the Hokage's bemused expressions. "We used a Five-Seal Barrier to stabilise a spiral of ninja wire, which we used to support progressively higher sets of wooden platforms. With no visible infrastructure, the tower could not be seen from range."
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Above we have the Hokage hustling us out of one of our secret techniques. However no one in the party ever express outrage or shock that this might be done. There is a huge power difference here between the Hokage and Team Uplift so of course we will give up the technique. However there is no in story acknowledgement that the Hokage has blatantly broken with normal traditions to gain an advantage. Kagome never gets upset that his seals have been basically stolen from him. Hazou never grumbles about how his brilliant innovations can just be stolen. Since we continue to work with leaf this suggest that the theft of Team Uplift's secrets is a minor inconvenience

eaglejarl said:
Don't worry, kid, I'm not done with you," Jiraiya said, turning back. "Arikada said you had these seals that produced mist. How did that work?"

"Well—" Hazou began, before cutting himself off. "That's secret, sir. How much will you pay for it?"

Jiraiya laughed. "Finally learning some OPSEC, huh? Pity. Okay, I'll give you twenty grand for 'em."
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Next we have Jiraiya offering to buy the Mistarators for twenty grand. At this point in the story this is one of Hazou's aces in the hole. This implies to me that Jiraiya considers new seals a commodity to be bought with cash. Mari bargains him up to a larger cash payment but does not try to bargain for new jutsu or seals in return. Like I said this is at the time of the update one of Hazou's 2 techniques. So we have another reference that devalues seals and techniques form something that is worth murdering to keep secret to a simple commodity to be bought and sold

Velorien said:
Oh, I really wouldn't worry about that, Captain Miyamoto," Noburi said. "Say, is that 'Hōzuki' like the Hōzuki Clan?"

"Huh," Captain Miyamoto sounded a little taken aback. "You're not completely empty-headed after all, maggot. That's right. My team was on the eastern front during the war. One of those elite Mist all-clan squads thought they could end us, but we showed the bastards what Leaf training is good for. Oh, we showed them. And then after a little time in T&I, one of them coughed up this little gem. We decided to keep the name, so every time we use the technique, we're spitting in Mist's eye for being too weak to protect their secrets.
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Next we find out that there is precedent for clan techniques being stolen. The Hozuki clan thought that this technique was valuable enough to name after the clan. Note as well that this is a technique that requires a large amount of chakra to use. So is probably limited to high chunnin low jounin members of the clan. This is also a jutsu not a bloodline technique. So it getting out directly empowers people who can learn the technique. In comparasion to the Wakahisa mist drain which if it gets out can only be planned against instead of being used against the clan members. Also any time an enemy ninja secret technique is learned it would be logical for the village to spread that information to all members of the village. Then if any members of a village of is captured the first thing they would spill is any enemy ninja secrets there villages have obtained. If this premise is true that means the Wakahisa mist drain is even less secure since it is a technique that is possible to learn on your own at low chuunin levels

Velorien said:
"Hidden Leaf on the Human Path," Kei admitted, "which means the Toad Clan is likely to gain it at some point. However, we have no intention of sharing it with anyone else at present, and we would expect the same of you."
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Here we have us offering to trade a secret technique to an ally. Kagome once again expresses no concern about the security risk this entails. We as a playerbase and team uplift does not seem to concerned about the proliferation of skytowers. The general assumption was that since this technique had already been given to leaf that it would spread eventually and that knowledge and use of this technique would spread first to the toads and then to other villages. Once again this was a secret that was known to multiple parties so team uplift did not value it as much. Noburi's mist drain is also a technique that is already known to his clan. There is no way to keep this technique a secret. We also can consider all of the Leaf lives that might be saved if the village knows the details of Mist drain since we are still technically at war with Mist.
Velorien said:
"The pangolins are always at war," Kei said, trying to keep the amusement out of her voice. "And if I am reading between the lines correctly, the Condor Clan is mobilising, and may even have a summoner at last, in which case it is in your interest to empower your own summoner as much as possible. One ninjutsu, and the contract will be with a ranking military officer."
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Here we once again see that in general team uplift does not value there techniques that highly. Kei was willing to trade 2 valuable seals for a contract and a jutsu. This asymmetrical trade further reinforces the idea that techniques are no more than commodities to be battered. Once again no one says anything about giving up Hazou and Kagome seals. I would also note that she did not bargain for a specific jutsu or ask for any kind of effect. Also on a slightly salty note you still haven't given any specifications on what Pangolin Reach does.

On a coupe final note I would first point out that we trusted Minami with Skywalkers which are much more of a security risk than mist drain. Skywalkers are a huge game changing innovation. Mist drain is a nice technique that if an enemy knows about they can be prepared to counter. The final note is honestly without Hazou, Noburi literally can't mist drain. Without the macerators it is basically an incredibly specialized technique. No one on the team has ever had any problem with Hazou explaining how his seals work which seems like a huge double standard to me.

Overall I think that in the story you have pretty conclusively portrayed techniques as not being as big of a deal. Every time we traded or dealt techniques they were treated as things that aren't that valuable. We were constantly lowballed on their value. So the hivemind accepted that as their value. Then when it would have a negative impact on the hive mind you did a 180 and made them an incredibly big deal. I know you didn't mean to but that is some very inconsistent GMing. Because whichever position you choose team uplift gets screwed.

I feel like this inconsistency though not fair is largely due to the fact that this is a bi-weekly updated work of fiction. I totally believe it was accidental but I feel if you were go back and edit this story you would agree with me

Still much love and appreciation to all your hard work
 
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My one contibution to this planning period: don't try to rush things. Relationships take time to build, as does trust. We need to ensure people aren't hostile, but true trust and healthy relationships will likely only be hurt by rushing.
 
I mean we could always pull an Akane and get forced into a fight where Minami and the gang have to trust each other to survive :p
 
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