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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Briefvoice said:
I would generally like to avoid exact wording and instead give the intent of what Hazou is to say while allowing the QMs to pick the words he uses to do so.

Since it is a concern, I added this line at the beginning:
If it seems like Manami is about to unleash violence, seek Akane's verbal support in urging Minami to hold off and talk just a little longer.
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It's okay, but I'm concerned that seeking Akane's help in calming down Minami is going to take too long, especially considering that Minami looks poised to run her sword through someone right at the end of the chapter, and Akane is likely to try anyway. Might it be worth it to simply go directly to the calming down and letting Akane assist without suggesting it to her?
Either way, it's good enough that I'll vote for it now.

[x] Action Plan: Deescalate, explain, deescalate
 
Briefvoice said:
Contingency in place.
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Speaking of:

While I am of the mind that most effort should be towards devising a way of talking Minami off the proverbial ledge, would it be prudent to include combat contingencies should she decide to attack and we need to subdue her temporarily, or is that just too unlikely to be worthwhile (can we even do anything if she wants to take Hazo + Kagome out?) at this point given the current situation?
 
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MMKII said:
Speaking of:

While I am of the mind that most effort should be towards devising a way of talking Minami off the proverbial ledge, would it be prudent to include combat contingencies should she decide to attack and we need to subdue her temporarily, or is that just too unlikely at this point given the current situation?
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It'll probably end in everyone else going to town on her after she strikes down Noburi, so probably not.
 
Welp, I've been gone for a while. Terrible plan: Subdue Minami and get Inoue to erase her memories.
 
Kalkin said:
Welp, I've been gone for a while. Terrible plan: Subdue Minami and get Inoue to erase her memories.
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Also, Truth Lost in the Fog only works on memories that occur during the genjutsu.

@Briefvoice: Consider including Hazou's intense dislike for killing people, as supported by trying to spare the gangster? Direct it at Kagome, though; if he's not monologuing at her about it, I feel she's more likely to listen.
 
Briefvoice said:
I rather thought "fuck it being legitimate for a clan to kill to protect its secrets" got the point across rather nicely.
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Hm, true, I missed that.

e: I do, however, suggest including punishments for Kagome in the discussion somewhere, including suggesting house arrest [to, obviously, include somewhere to do sealing research] to the clan leader/hokage when we get back. Possibly also psychological evaluation, but that would require qualification; given what we know he knows we can't afford for the Yamanaka to do a dive on him, so it'd have to be purely non-chakra therapy and psychology.
 
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Briefvoice said:
I rather thought "fuck it being legitimate for a clan to kill to protect its secrets" got the point across rather nicely.
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Except it often is legitimate. Minami was raised in a clan, and she'll have been taught that it's perfectly ok to kill enemy ninja to keep clan secrets. Both Noburi and Keiko would also think that's legitimate. Saying otherwise will simply come across as naive.

What she finds unacceptable here is that Kagome tried to kill her, a teammate and member of the same village, and that we're apparently letting him off with a "slap on the wrist". It's a matter of in group versus out group, and how clan secrets getting exposed here doesn't justify a murder attempt on Minami - there's no doubt some method of resolution in the case of clan secrets getting exposed to a member of the same village that doesn't involve killing, because clan ninjas will occasionally have to use their secrets in front of allied ninjas.

I personally think that what's most important to get across is why Kagome tried to kill her (he just desperately wants to protect those he considers to be his team) and why our group isn't treating him like a monstrous traitor (he really isn't in his right state of mind due to his emotional trauma and social isolation). And what Hazou should say if he's going to state his opinion on killing to keep clan secrets is that he doesn't believe killing teammates and people from the same village over it is justified, rather than saying it's flat out wrong since not killing your enemies to protect clan secrets is stupid and can get members of your clan killed.


Oh, also...

Briefvoice said:
If Minami brings up the 'Stone Cold Killer' thing, express bewilderment, then sorry resignation that you've blown yet another secret.
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Is this really a secret? I mean, all the clan heads know, and I'm pretty sure more than just them know about it. Maybe it's not something we want spread around, but it's hardly a big secret and we were never told it was one to my knowledge.
 
How fast can Nobs drain a chunin again? Tossing a misterator would slow down combat quite a bit, and that glowing (is it glowing? It seems to be lightning based and crackling) sword would make her the only visible person.
 
Lailoken said:
How fast can Nobs drain a chunin again? Tossing a misterator would slow down combat quite a bit, and that glowing (is it glowing? It seems to be lightning based and crackling) sword would make her the only visible person.
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Noburi drains 1CP/level/second, meaning at level 15 of Vampiric Dew he is draining 15 chakra/sec. Take your best guess as to how much chakra Minami has and that will let you figure out how long it would take to drain her.
 
Enjou said:
Except it often is legitimate. Minami was raised in a clan, and she'll have been taught that it's perfectly ok to kill enemy ninja to keep clan secrets. Both Noburi and Keiko would also think that's legitimate. Saying otherwise will simply come across as naive.

What she finds unacceptable here is that Kagome tried to kill her, a teammate and member of the same village, and that we're apparently letting him off with a "slap on the wrist". It's a matter of in group versus out group, and how clan secrets getting exposed here doesn't justify a murder attempt on Minami - there's no doubt some method of resolution in the case of clan secrets getting exposed to a member of the same village that doesn't involve killing, because clan ninjas will occasionally have to use their secrets in front of allied ninjas.

I personally think that what's most important to get across is why Kagome tried to kill her (he just desperately wants to protect those he considers to be his team) and why our group isn't treating him like a monstrous traitor (he really isn't in his right state of mind due to his emotional trauma and social isolation). And what Hazou should say if he's going to state his opinion on killing to keep clan secrets is that he doesn't believe killing teammates and people from the same village over it is justified, rather than saying it's flat out wrong since not killing your enemies to protect clan secrets is stupid and can get members of your clan killed.
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There's a lot of things I want to say about this, so you'll excuse me if it's a bit jumbled. Here is what my thinking is for what Hazou is thinking.

1. Killing people to protect clan secrets is wrong.

2. Sometimes as ninja, we do wrong things to survive. We are all... I can't have him say "all sinners" because the religious context isn't there, but that's the idea. We are all sinners who have done wrong things to survive. I know Akane and the team will be thinking of that dead Leaf patrol here.

3. That does not make them less wrong, and fuck taking it casually or dehumanizing the people who we are killing LIKE KAGOME IS ALWAYS TRYING TO DO. Fuck that shit Kagome, stop it.

4. Minami did not go looking for these secrets and is essentially an innocent bystander here. Killing her would be a VERY wrong thing, especially given that the scenario where it could endanger Noburi's life comes at the end of a long string of hypotheticals. And if it merely means that some other clan would get political advantage on us then DOUBLE FUCK killing an innocent bystander.

5. Yes she's an allied ninja and that makes it an incredibly dumb move for all sorts of practical and political reasons. But that's the practical argument that Keiko already made.

6. You say, "he doesn't believe killing teammates and people from the same village over it is justified, rather than saying it's flat out wrong since not killing your enemies to protect clan secrets is stupid". Is that meant to say that everyone who isn't teammate and people from the same village is an enemy? Well, that's probably a longer discussion than can be had in this emotionally fraught moment, but in my mental model of him Hazou is allowing for the possibility that there are people who are not from the same village but not an enemy either, and killing them is wrong too.

Which I know goes against a lot of sentiment that we've seen in this thread, where some posters have been pretty willing to casually kill to protect secrets. All I can say is that I'm not willing to put down any plan where Hazou doesn't say "fuck that" even if it may sometimes be necessary, because still... fuck that. Fuck that it's a terrible world where he might have to kill someone who didn't mean him any immediate harm, and he's never going say it's 'okay'.

Is this really a secret? I mean, all the clan heads know, and I'm pretty sure more than just them know about it. Maybe it's not something we want spread around, but it's hardly a big secret and we were never told it was one to my knowledge.
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Do they know? I went back to read the update where Jiraiya is addressing the clan heads, and I couldn't find him saying that the ninja he was adopting were the Cold Stone Killers, but maybe I missed it.
 
Cariyaga said:
Hm, true, I missed that.

e: I do, however, suggest including punishments for Kagome in the discussion somewhere, including suggesting house arrest [to, obviously, include somewhere to do sealing research] to the clan leader/hokage when we get back. Possibly also psychological evaluation, but that would require qualification; given what we know he knows we can't afford for the Yamanaka to do a dive on him, so it'd have to be purely non-chakra therapy and psychology.
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Added this at the end:

If Minami expresses outrage about the idea of continuing without some summary punishment of Kagome, plead with her to think of him as someone who is sick, like a ninja conditioned to immediate violent response to any threat after too long in constant danger. Promise her that he will be treated when we get safely back to Leaf.
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Enjou said:
What she finds unacceptable here is that Kagome tried to kill her, a teammate and member of the same village, and that we're apparently letting him off with a "slap on the wrist".
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Definitely. It's not a "you can't kill people to keep your secrets" thing, it's a "he tried to kill me" thing.

That said, I'm not sure why my Plan Secure Kagome wouldn't help both in dealing with the Kagome-kills-teammates threat and with assuring Minami that we do take his attempt on her life seriously.

As a reminder, that's this (more details where I originally discussed the plan):

Raxner said:
So I'm thinking that we keep Minami safe, ask Keiko to contact Jiraiya urgently via summons, brief him on the near-disaster, and get Kagome back in Leaf and safely controlled. Let's call this part "Plan Secure Kagome."
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Question for @eaglejarl or other QMs. As a general rule, do you pick just one plan to enact (the highest-vote earner, of course), or multiple plans, and if multiple plans, how do you decide which multiple plans won?
 
I don't see why there's an argument about Kagome. This is way beyond a field discipline issue. The correct thing to say is, "This is about completing the mission. Kagome's discipline for an action of this severity is a completely separate matter for his clan head, the Hokage, full stop."
 
Lailoken said:
The correct thing to say is, "This is about completing the mission. Kagome's discipline for an action of this severity is a completely separate matter for his clan head, the Hokage, full stop."
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Agreed. Which is why I want Kagome off the front lines (enabling us to complete the mission) and back under the eye of his clan head, the Hokage, to be secured and properly disciplined.
 
We really need to get around to telling her the story of how Kagome and Mari, and especially Kagome and Hazou met. It might put things in context.

"-so, the hypno-chicken had almost gotten me eaten alive by invisible land-crabs and I'm sitting there on a branch catching my breath when SLAP!, I've got an explosive tag on my back. It's a good thing that I reminded him to take it off after our conversation, because he forgot."​



Raxner said:
Agreed. Which is why I want Kagome off the front lines (enabling us to complete the mission) and back under the eye of his clan head, the Hokage, to be secured and properly disciplined.
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The problem is that that is also the exact reason that J wanted him the hell out of Leaf. Babysitting Kagome while he freaks out over being confined in a village capital instead of protecting his family and every opposing political force tries to set him off to undermine J is the last thing he needs right now.
 
Lailoken said:
The problem is that that is also the exact reason that J wanted him the hell out of Leaf. Babysitting Kagome while he freaks out over being confined in a village capital instead of protecting his family and every opposing political force tries to set him off to undermine J is the last thing he needs right now.
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Yeah, you're not wrong, but you're not totally right, either. Because Mari-sensei would hopefully be able to take Kagome in hand, and she's the one that can actually calm him down.

Why don't we at least consult with Jiraiya, tell him what happened, and ask for guidance? Kagome's going crazy, if it happens (and it pretty much has) is enough to not only ruin the mission, but potentially destroy the new Clan Jiraiya.
 
Raxner said:
Yeah, you're not wrong, but you're not totally right, either. Because Mari-sensei would hopefully be able to take Kagome in hand, and she's the one that can actually calm him down.

Why don't we at least consult with Jiraiya, tell him what happened, and ask for guidance? Kagome's going crazy, if it happens (and it pretty much has) is enough to not only ruin the mission, but potentially destroy the new Clan Jiraiya.
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Oh, the next step is definitely to contact J. Right now the primary concern is keeping anybody from starting a sword fight in a phone booth a mile above the ground and stuffed full of enough explosives for a failure to still qualify as a ground burst.
 
Raxner said:
Question for @eaglejarl or other QMs. As a general rule, do you pick just one plan to enact (the highest-vote earner, of course), or multiple plans, and if multiple plans, how do you decide which multiple plans won?
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There's always one winning plan. If one plan has more votes than any other, it's the winning plan. If there's a tie then the QM picks from those choices. Note that we generally do not merge votes -- votes for "Kill it with Fire" are different from votes for "Kill it w/Fire" or "Kill it with Frie".

That said, when deciding if two votes are for the same plan, CounterBot will:

- Strip everything except a-zA-Z0-9
- Convert everything to lowercase, just to make @Veedrac grumble ( ;> )
- Strip "Action Plan", "Training Plan", or "Plan" off the front.

So, all of these are considered votes for the same plan:

Action Plan: Do it
Plan: Do it
Do It
DO IT!
Doit!!!



PS: I tease Veedrac, but he's right that casefolding is strictly better than lowercasing and that I've made CounterBot too ignorant about Unicode.
 
eaglejarl said:
There's always one winning plan. If one plan has more votes than any other, it's the winning plan. If there's a tie then the QM picks from those choices. Note that we generally do not merge votes -- votes for "Kill it with Fire" are different from votes for "Kill it w/Fire" or "Kill it with Frie".

That said, when deciding if two votes are for the same plan, CounterBot will:

- Strip everything except a-zA-Z0-9
- Convert everything to lowercase, just to make @Veedrac grumble ( ;> )
- Strip "Action Plan", "Training Plan", or "Plan" off the front.

So, all of these are considered votes for the same plan:

Action Plan: Do it
Plan: Do it
Do It
DO IT!
Doit!!!



PS: I tease Veedrac, but he's right that casefolding is strictly better than lowercasing and that I've made CounterBot too ignorant about Unicode.
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Terrific, thanks. Also, I never heard of case folding before, but am now looking into it. Double thanks for that!
 
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