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The thing about such a hunter is that if they miss even a single stealth roll - what do they do? They can't TacMov away. They can't kill the things in more typical ninja combat (no Taij or Weap). They can't use seals to fight them off, at least until you all come up with civilian-usable explosives. The alternative is to spend ninja power babysitting them, which could be used to just go do the thing you're training the civilians for.
So which of the following answers is correct in-universe?
  • They can't get good at stealth without actual danger, and they don't have good ways to survive that danger.
  • They can't use ninja tricks, such as Chakra Adhesion/Repulsion, Henge, etcetera, and thus can't get good at stealth period.
  • They're a lot more valuable if they're kept secret. (See: Hazou doesn't know.)
  • Something else. (Maybe it happens sometimes, because sending one combat-capable ninja to cover a dozen civ-nin on a scouting mission is cheaper than sending a dozen regular ninja?)
Ye, that and the next one of Hazou Sensei Quest
And the "Fraidy-Cats Kagome is recruited by Akatsuki" omake? :)
 
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I really like that people are proposing plans now. Here's my commentary on both.

[X] Action Plan: Honeyed Knee, Version 1

Goals:

  • Survive.
  • Leaf Leaf without incident.
  • Go where our team decides.
  • Make a base.

Seem like decent goals.

  • Leave Leaf.
    • Speak when spoken to, and then only as much as necessary.
  • Go where our team decides.
    • Follow the lead of our team. Absent that, follow the lead of the escort team. Absent that, keep Hazo's mouth shut unless spoken to or a threat appears.
      • Follow SOP for long-distance travel barring orders otherwise.
      • Additional details can be added here.
    • Pay attention. Watch out for approaching threats (ninjas, chakra monsters...)
      • Additional details can be added here.
  • Make a base on arrival.
    • Use MEW to make standard fortifications.
    • Help Kagome set up the appropriate traps.
    • If our team has a different plan for base construction, follow that instead.
    • Look over our Intel Checklist for any nearby locations.

Contingencies:
  • Be polite and courteous.
    • If part of our plan results in not being polite or courteous, override that part of the plan.
    • Ignore this contingency if a threat appears, and speed of warning is more important than phrasing.
  • Be alert.
    • Keep an eye out for threats.
    • Alert the team if a threat appears, and Hazo is the first to notice.
A couple points:

  • I'd probably mention a place we'd like to go for "just in case we're asked" so that Hazou doesn't not respond if they ask him that.
  • We probably don't want to follow our movement SOPs while escorted by Leaf ninja, since that would 1: give away our abilities (especially chakra re-balancing), 2: be unnecessary since we're here legitimately, escorted by the legitimate rulers.
[X] Action Plan: We're FREEEEEEEEE!

Goals:

1. Don't Die
2. Go Underground
3. Rest & Recuperate

Methods:

Phase 1
  • Discuss with team beforehand where we want to go.
  • During escort:
    • Make sure Kagome don't do anything stupid or rash.
    • Be courteous. Say nothing unless addressed.
    • Be on alert for threats.
  • Once a bit past the border(20 km~) and no escort, execute SOP:LRM.
  • Keep moving until Mari-sensei judged a good spot to set up camp.

Phase 2
  • For nearby locations, execute Intel Checklist discretely, and henged.
  • Set up camp. MEW shelter. Camo. Make seal traps and regular traps, set watch schedule. You know the drill. (We don't have a base-building SOP)
  • Suggested activities(can act on one or more ideas):
    • Before doing anything else, discuss breaking camp and relocating. E.g. Move from Tea to one of the islands south, maybe even Sea.
    • The team destress for two days other then camp maintenance and security.
      • However, Hazou will do the most dirty, unwanted, and annoying jobs for the team as repentance.
    • The team do an After Action Report on the Konoha clusterfuck.
    • Start on training plans.
Contingencies:
  • Be polite and courteous.
    • If part of our plan results in not being polite or courteous, override that part of the plan.
    • Ignore this contingency if a threat appears, and speed of warning is more important than phrasing.
  • Be alert.
    • Keep an eye out for threats.
    • Alert the team if a threat appears, and Hazo is the first to notice.
A couple comments:

  • What does "execute Intell Checklist" mean? Does that mean do an infiltration? Because that's probably something we ought to plan as a group, not do without thought during an update.
  • If we're using Hazou's list of border nations, do we also have a preferred place to stay we want to mention, or do we just want to tell the team what we think the pros and cons of each are? While being observed by Leaf ninja under house arrest?

Edit: Also, as right now all the action plans have Hazou accepting the team's decision, I will note that I expect the team to go to Iron if Hazou doesn't give input (Kagome knows a relatively safe place, Noburi can finish training, Keiko doesn't want to upset Hidden Mountain, and we don't have much reason to think Zabuza would specifically look for us there (aside from non-team perspective knowledge that Zabuza found Hot Springs and is looking for Noburi via his barrel)
 
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I really like that people are proposing plans now. Here's my commentary on both.



Seem like decent goals.


A couple points:

  • I'd probably mention a place we'd like to go for "just in case we're asked" so that Hazou doesn't not respond if they ask him that.
  • We probably don't want to follow our movement SOPs while escorted by Leaf ninja, since that would 1: give away our abilities (especially chakra re-balancing), 2: be unnecessary since we're here legitimately, escorted by the legitimate rulers.

A couple comments:

  • What does "execute Intell Checklist" mean? Does that mean do an infiltration? Because that's probably something we ought to plan as a group, not do without thought during an update.
  • If we're using Hazou's list of border nations, do we also have a preferred place to stay we want to mention, or do we just want to tell the team what we think the pros and cons of each are? While being observed by Leaf ninja under house arrest?

Edit: Also, as right now all the action plans have Hazou accepting the team's decision, I will note that I expect the team to go to Iron if Hazou doesn't give input (Kagome knows a relatively safe place, Noburi can finish training, Keiko doesn't want to upset Hidden Mountain, and we don't have much reason to think Zabuza would specifically look for us there (aside from non-team perspective knowledge that Zabuza found Hot Springs and is looking for Noburi via his barrel)

Thanks for the input! Edits have been added based on your suggestions. For the moment, the suggested location is Tea, since it sounds like that's what the thread is thinking. Iron sounds surprisingly tempting, though.

Edit: Actually, that seems like a good thing to have a subplan for. Added that to original plan.

[x] Destination Subplan: Tea

Suggest going to Tea.

[x] Destination Subplan: Iron

Suggest going to Iron.
 
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For the moment, the suggested location is Tea, since it sounds like that's what the thread is thinking. Iron sounds surprisingly tempting, though.

I'm not convinced that people are picking Tea or Iron because they are good options. I think those are just the two obvious options and they seem "safe" because we have been there and survived. Familiar seems safe so to speak.

Don't people want to see new locales? Most of the world is wilderness, and ninja villages don't have the resources to patrol everything everywhere. I say going somewhere surprising is a better defense than going somewhere with "less ninja activity".
 
I'm sort of inclined to just fuck off into the middle of the ocean, store oxygen in seals, dive to the bottom, MEW ourselves a new island, and just expand from there as needed. Fishing, kelp gardens, waterproof storage seals that suck up passing fish... Later we can get soil for land crops...
 
Hmm.

Past travels: Tea and Iron are places people could expect us, and Tea is close to Water. They're both decently big, though. Rice has a lot of people who've seen us, and we went there after Hot Springs. Hot Springs is just no.

Nin around:
Fang and Claw are small and right between Earth and Wind, which makes me think they're probably crawling with nin from both. Plus side is probably fewer Mist operators/informants, minus side is lots of other people to worry about.

River is allied with Fire and Wind (does that mean they're relatively weak?), Waterfall with Earth. Grass is allied with nobody (but they have 200-400 nin, which is a lot per square meter considering how small they are).

If the plan is to lie low and train for a while, I don't think a moderate ninja presence is bad. (Though outside view says shit will hit the fan at some point.)

Get-outta-dodge factor: can't rely on fleeing to Leaf, but it might be an option if we're desperate enough. Being close to other small nations is good, both for this and if we find out a place isn't as good as we thought.

Especially for places we've been like Tea and Iron, being able to get in, do stuff, get to River/ Waterfall respectively helps mitigate the dangers a bit.

  • Decent: River
  • Maybe: Tea, Iron
  • Maybe not: Iron, Waterfall, Snow
  • No: Grass, Rice
  • Hard no: Hot Springs, Rain, major nations, anywhere in Mist's sphere of influence
  • *screaming in kagome*: Mist
 
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Hard no: Hot Springs, Rain, major nations

Actually, major nations (like Earth) are big enough that we could potentially hide there if required. They probably have specialized sensory things that helps them to keep track on things, but as long as we stay away from the bigger towns and the don't go anywhere near the hidden village itself, we should be good.

Major nations are also good as escape directions. If the ninjas chasing us are not from that nation, they risk an international incident or maybe even being killed on sight by following us. That's why I like Fang, we would have two big nations we could escape to, depending on who is chasing us.

Frost I haven't seen any Intel on, but it seems somewhat in Water's sphere as well.

Frost is the gate to Lightning, meaning they probably have the power over it. I don't see them letting Mist prance around so close to them.
 
If Noburi can get up to Medic/Mednin 10 in Tea Iron, then perhaps we should at least make a detour there. A self-sufficient medic who might even be qualified to teach others would be invaluable in this brave new world where we've been cut loose. In fact, if he wants to do that, we should support him, since while everybody else got their promised training, Noburi lost out on his.

Edit: I meant Iron, not Tea.
 
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Actually, major nations (like Earth) are big enough that we could potentially hide there if required. They probably have specialized sensory things that helps them to keep track on things, but as long as we stay away from the bigger towns and the don't go anywhere near the hidden village itself, we should be good.

Major nations are also good as escape directions. If the ninjas chasing us are not from that nation, they risk an international incident or maybe even being killed on sight by following us. That's why I like Fang, we would have two big nations we could escape to, depending on who is chasing us.



Frost is the gate to Lightning, meaning they probably have the power over it. I don't see them letting Mist prance around so close to them.

Yeah, on second thought you're probably right about Frost, given how big that bay of its is and how much Lightning overlooks it.

Re: major nations, maybe they're not a hard no, depending on how thinly spread their forces are. The fleeing thing is a good point, especially in a contentious area, but I worry about Jiraiya figuring out we were the ones who started WWIV. :p
 
Alert trigger: Update is up

And I need 100 words to make the alert go.

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Was I supposed to get an alert from this? Because I didn't...

(despite being subscribed to the thread)
 
I'm sort of inclined to just fuck off into the middle of the ocean, store oxygen in seals, dive to the bottom, MEW ourselves a new island, and just expand from there as needed. Fishing, kelp gardens, waterproof storage seals that suck up passing fish... Later we can get soil for land crops...
It's tempting. What's Noburi's draining range at this point? He could provide a dual role of early warning for incoming monsters and draining the ocean wildlife to produce chakra water, which Hazou would then drink and use to cast MEW.

In fact, I'd argue for water-walking on the surface or using a raft. Hazou can create MEWs, and they would simply sink to the bottom. On the surface, even a few seconds of warning could give a crucial advantage against anything that swims underwater: explosive tags could be used for blast fishing, killing or at least stunning the monsters so that they could be finished off.

That said, someone needs to perform a back-of-the-envelope check to figure out how many MEWs it would take.

On the other hand, we are now and forever bound by XP, which we won't be able to earn unless we fight things that can kill us, trick those who can trick us, etc..

Edit: Details: Waka's current detection range is 75 m, and his draining range is 15 m, with maximum rate of 7.5 CP / s. Standing on deep water, he can drain from about 7000 m3​ of water, which sounds like a lot, but probably doesn't have nearly as much biomass as we'd think.

Since MEW costs 6 CP for every 2.83 m3​, assuming perfect efficiency, creating a 1 m × 1 m pillar at a depth of 1 km with MEW would cost 2120 CP, which would take Waka a bit less than 5 minutes to drain, provided there were enough life in those 7000 cubic meters to drain.

You know, this might just work. If aquatic megafauna are, in fact, vulnerable to depth charges, we may be able to bait them, then stun them with explosive tags and drain them while they're stunned, keeping the chakra flowing to MEW. A respectable offshore platform could be built in a few days.
 
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That is true. But my comment was in response to the idea that we have to write out our conversations for review instead of just talking to her about it. At least then there's no physical evidence of a fuckup (paper).



Does anyone have any serious destinations besides Tea? Iron was mentioned briefly but FMPOV most of the agreement has been in favor of Tea.
I'd kind of rather Iron (for Noburi's training) than Tea. From Iron we can go to Snow after Nobby's done training if we want to avoid Zabuza, or build a sea platform.

@OliWhail @eaglejarl @Velorien Does leveling Vampiric Dew also give Noburi additional expertise in his clan seals as a side effect? I figure not, but it's worth a check...
Warning: Massive cannon spoilers up to and including the resolution of the main plot of Shippuden.

----

On the subject of the Akatsuki:

I'm fairly new here and haven't read thread backlogs, so I don't know if this has been brought up yet, but how do people feel about going with the Akatsuki's/Madara's (cannon) plans? Not just trying to join them in the near term?

FWIW, I always hated the cannon's immediate rejection of the idea of the Infinite Tsukuyomi ("It's 'just' a dream"/"It does disservice to the memories of those who have died"/etc). Yes, the ultimate goal of the one behind everything turned out to be evil, but that doesn't immediately preclude their methods.

This has some clear parallels to uploading/simulation. Handwaving a bit, but from a reductionist PoV, if we could recreate exactly all the behaviors of a person inside the dream, such that there is no evidence we know of that contradicts it (all living people's memories, historical documents, inference from physical evidence etc.), we're effectively pulling from a nearby branch of reality where that version of the person existed. One could make a strong moral argument for this plan to "resurrect" everyone, or at least those who are remembered by people who are still alive.

There is of course the issue of life after death in cannon. We don't really know much about that, except people seem to hang around a bit in a kind of purgatory, until others they care for have died or resolved their issues, before "moving on".

Even if "resurrect everyone in a Genjutsu world" doesn't work out, or isn't appealing or practical, I think there's still a strong argument for creating a Matrix of sorts that we control. The possibilities are endless. At the very least, we could create safer, more pleasant simulation world in Genjutsu where people aren't dying and killing each other left and right. Perhaps with the Tailed Beasts guarding the "real" one, or something.

Thoughts?

There are a number of issues here...
  • We don't know in story if the Akatsuki is even active, or if they are what their goals are
  • Same for Madara/Obito
  • Same for Kaguya -- did she even exist? Is Black Zetsu around / still manipulating history to resurrect Kaguya?
  • Could we even be of use to the Akatsuki? Why would they even talk to us instead of killing us on sight?
  • Assuming we could join up, if their goals are different than cannon or at odds with ours, how probable is it we could ultimately defeat them or turn them to our side? (Noburi -- quick, dump everything into Diplomacy!)
  • Would it be possible to solve some of the cannon issues with the Infinite Tsukuyomi?
    • Link people's minds into a shared dream through chakra-something-or-other mumblemumble *waves hands around*. Wasn't specifically ruled out, butin the filler episodes everyone had their own dream.
    • Maybe not turning people caught in the dream into zombie puppets
    • Just another minor suggestion, but maybe also opt-in instead of seeking to destroy all opposition and mindrape everyone?
  • Does any of this even work the same way in this AU? A lot of the heavy lifting in terms of computational work to create a full dream world indistinguishable from reality is sort of just glossed over. But then again, how does "gestalt field" / chakra work anyway?
  • Assuming we wanted to go down this path, could we maintain relations with Jiraiya/leaf, somehow keeping from him that we actually and truly are planning on World Domination?
  • Do we have any good IC reason for pursuing this at all? It is all very meta and feels kinda icky from that PoV

Hey guys, I'm new. Just caught up a little while ago. I love the quest. Sadly I've not had the time to read all 1.5k pages, but hopefully I've read enough not to do a Hazō. I've had this on my mind for a few days, but now seems like a good lull to write it out in (not least because I've finally caught up, though).

I'm new here so I'm pushing my luck by starting with a rant. But I really don't want this team to die early, so I'm saying what I think should be said.



You were in the safest environment you've been in since you became missing-nin. You nearly died. Something is fundamentally broken about how you're approaching things. This should not happen.

Kagome makes you put up wall after wall, shield after shield of protection when you want to play with seals. The safer sliver of seals, that is, because anything else is off the table before you even design the things. He just says nope. Can't try that. Too risky.

How many of you think this is a character flaw?

So how about jumping into a house guarded by a ninja of unknown, but terrifyingly high power, with an unknown but undoubtedly significant array of defensive seals? What was the escape plan? Sadly I wasn't there, but I can search the archives.



Would Kagome say "If things go bad, abort sealing and escape the premises" suffices as an escape plan?

But you know what really made it bad? We had a perfectly feasible, relatively safe alternative. We wouldn't have had to abandon our mission, we could have just taken it slow. Don't Be Stupid And Get Rich Quick. We could basically print cash with the amount of ice we could make. And it's safe. At least in the sense that Hazō's Iron Nerve makes sealing safe. For what it's worth, this is still feasible. If ice is rare, there's going to be demand for it everywhere. I'm sure a lot of villages would like food preservation, even if we can't find another quite as rich establishment to split profits with.

Yes, crazy fights with Jōunin are cool and offer a lot of rewards. But so is researching seals that make people fuse into one Uber Ninja. Either you find a way to do it safely or you don't do it at all. When you're lucky, you ace a mission. When you're unlucky, you die. The later costs 100x more, and is no less likely than the former. That is not a trade Kagome would make.

Here's another half-a-plan. You capture someone covered in seals, with skill far greater than your own in sealing. And you let them run next to you. With no plan. Kagome should have killed her then. A certain someone would be a bit healthier for it.

How many of Jiraiya's favours are worth a 10% chance of one of your teammates dying? Because from what I can see it's a hell of a lot, and treating a walking biohazard like a 10% chance of death pretty much guarantees you're under that Happiness Genjutsu. You're making the wrong bets. You *owned* that sealmaster. Imagine what would have happened if you weren't so lucky.

You either have a plan, or you don't take the risk. This should be obvious. Kagome says it all the time, and you've admitted you know full well that his behaviours are well adapted to ninja life.

Then we get to the whole Kabuto business. Remember when Jiraiya soundly beat the team? Remember how that made the next step so much easier? So why, when Kabuto does exactly the same to us, is our first step to make him our enemy. It's not like Kabuto did anything wrong. He demonstrated that he was a good ninja. Woe is us, for Akane's lifeline just demonstrated his competence.

Seriously, why? Best case, everyone ignores us. Worse case, Kabuto gets pissed and actually starts using the massive leverage he has. Note that we basically can't retaliate, because if we win the game and Kabuto finds out then he actually has a reason to kill us, and if we lose the game then all we've done is lost our chance of minimizing the damage he can do.

Then we involve Jiraiya. That's not actually a bad plan, if we treated Kabuto like a threat and approached it like Ninjas. We don't say "here are all the reasons our inferences are unfounded, oh and also we've got all the more reason to be biased about this because of how irrationally we think when our friends are in perceived danger". You say that you feel uncomfortable about the amount of power he has over your team, and that you would appreciate a safety net if Kabuto does end up demanding more than you can muster.

Worst case, Jiraiya takes offence and your team uses up some of his immense generosity. Note how this is both less likely than him taking offence at a full-on conspiracy theory and much less of a terrible outcome than dying.

And let's talk about this generosity thing for a moment, because some of you somehow don't get it. You are missing-nin. Nobody owes you anything. Jiraiya, however, on first contact did nothing but allay your concerns, teach you an extremely valuable diplomatic principle of power (which you've repeatedly soundly ignored) and offer you a lucrative job.

You are now allies with Jiraiya. Many ninja would literally die for a chance at that, never mind missing-nin. Jiraiya lead to you meeting Akane. Who is a missing-nin of the Leaf's. Who Jiraiya somehow never once threatened. Jiraiya lead you to one of your teammates getting a summoning scroll. Which ended up furthering the political bonds between you two. Jiraiya casually accepted being scammed, despite having the knowledge to do most of what you gave him for free. Jiraiya gave you a second chance. The Mist never did.

And yet, somehow you treated this like it was earned, rather than a miraculous fountain of luck, and that somehow Jiraiya was now your piece to play with impunity.

The fuck-up wasn't when you said those dumb words. The fuck-up was much more fundamental, much more intrinsic and a lot earlier than that. Risks can pay off, but they can also fail. And then you die.



Here's how I view your future plans.

You should say that you are going to stay low key for a while, out of both an understanding of your team's naivité and out of concern for making things worse for Jiraiya. You recognize that you are missing-nin and should act like missing-nin, not lighthouses. This should be stated as an expectation, not a specification, since you do not want to claim or exercise any authority.

You offer to do something for Jiraiya gratis, if he can think of something low key where failure is inexpensive and unlikely to become a noticeable event. You do not pressure this point, and should offer on your own behalf, not the team's through appropriate choice of pronoun. Espionage is a perhaps a good idea, as you are deniable assets that sorely need practice in the matter, and espionage generally does not prevent you from working on your own plans in the meantime.

You have broken your team's trust, and have ruined many things for them. They have the right to be pissed. You do not just speak platitudes at them; they are not idiots and they understand the situation at least as well as you do. They will open up to you when both you and they are ready to do so. This is a situation you shall prepare for, but not force. For the immediate future, stick to factual, utilitarian conversation, and be open about the fact you are doing so. Where feasible, you speak to others through your team, until they are able to trust you again to directly be a public face (which, hopefully, will not be all that long).

Your escape plans are terrible. Luckily, they are getting better as time goes on. I believe you are now effectively able to build a near-invulnerable, silent cube in the sky, and any other strategic location, sense through it to a limited extent, and provide it with breathable and clean air for extended periods of time. These cubes, if suitably hidden, can be silenced to aid escape into them (preferably though Kawarimi or similar high-speed techniques), and enemies can be waited out, especially from up high. Your options for handling the worst-case are improving, and considering them should be an immediate concern. Testing these ideas is a valuable short-term goal.

Your new skills seem infinitely abusable, but to follow up on this I will need time to think things over.

What Would Kagome Do? becomes a new personal motto when planning.

Hey, both of y'all, welcome! I'm glad to see new faces around here, and those are quite depthful arguments; I'm happy to see new folks engaging with the quest! Don't have time to respond to the actual content right now, but wanted to give you a welcome! :D
 
Two more items.

1.

An important lesson from the last update is that we need to acknowledge not just what we've done wrong but also acknowledge how what we've done had affected the others. I think that our near-term interactions with the team should be focused on making specific amends with respect to that. In particular, in loose order of priority,
  1. How do we help Noburi get medical training? Vote to go to Iron?
  2. How do we help Keiko relate again, or perhaps stay in communication with Tenten? (I may be misjudging what we've taken from her in this case. Feel free to dispute this.)
  3. How do we show Inoue that we are taking the lessons to heart? Ask her for lessons explicitly?
  4. Kagome, I don't know. He's probably happy to be out of Konoha.
2.

While our credibility with the team is at an all-time low, I don't think that Hazou will regain it with passivity and servility like what some are proposing. While we can't pretend that nothing has happened and should not minimize his mistake, the PC must remain proactive in influencing team's direction --- ideally atoning with deeds, not words or attitude --- and while we certainly shouldn't argue in front of outsiders (including Jiraiya), Hazou needs to stand up for his record --- which is, on the whole, quite good.

We might want to start compiling a list of his social successes right now. This would both help lift the mood of the thread and give Hazou some ammunition in case he needs to defend himself. Here's a start:
  1. Brought Kagome into the group. (This one needs to be phrased very delicately.)
  2. Brought Akane into the group and inspired her.
  3. Defused Kouta's frame-job attempt with nobody dying.
  4. Got Jiraiya to go along with his general plan. Our mistake has not undone that, merely postponed it.
 
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Posting this because I wish I'd come to this conclusion sooner.

Imagine your, say, cousin has cancer. You have speculative, but not unfounded, reason to believe their doctor has done unethical cancer research. You go to the head of medicine about these concerns; they're dismissive, so you tell them you'd go "pretty damn far" to protect your cousin, and they bring you to court for threatening their physician. In this case, your primary concern is getting them to pay attorney fees because such a statement isn't a threat in the same way an idea isn't copyrightable.

In StarCraft, there's a tradeoff between not dying immediately and being stronger later (conditional on not dying). Since the way you're stronger later (and more at-risk now) is often by investing in your economy instead of combat units, we call it being greedy. StarCraft is fairly balanced in this respect: at the highest level, no one wins by being exceptionally greedy or exceptionally safe.

MfD is unbalanced in this regard; taking a risk now to be more powerful later will get us dead immediately (probably; we've never actually tested this), so play 100% safe.

But IRL, we have a lot of stability (for now, at least), which implies you want to "play" incredibly greedy.

So, I've come to view MfD as a memetic hazard. The habits of thought to play well in this universe, I don't want them in my head. I'll probably keep reading (both authors are truly fantastic), but this will be my last post in the thread.

Someone should probably take over management of the list of omake ideas that I will no longer been maintaining.

It's been fun. Best of luck.
 
Posting this because I wish I'd come to this conclusion sooner.

Imagine your, say, cousin has cancer. You have speculative, but not unfounded, reason to believe their doctor has done unethical cancer research. You go to the head of medicine about these concerns; they're dismissive, so you tell them you'd go "pretty damn far" to protect your cousin, and they bring you to court for threatening their physician. In this case, your primary concern is getting them to pay attorney fees because such a statement isn't a threat in the same way an idea isn't copyrightable.

In StarCraft, there's a tradeoff between not dying immediately and being stronger later (conditional on not dying). Since the way you're stronger later (and more at-risk now) is often by investing in your economy instead of combat units, we call it being greedy. StarCraft is fairly balanced in this respect: at the highest level, no one wins by being exceptionally greedy or exceptionally safe.

MfD is unbalanced in this regard; taking a risk now to be more powerful later will get us dead immediately (probably; we've never actually tested this), so play 100% safe.

But IRL, we have a lot of stability (for now, at least), which implies you want to "play" incredibly greedy.

So, I've come to view MfD as a memetic hazard. The habits of thought to play well in this universe, I don't want them in my head. I'll probably keep reading (both authors are truly fantastic), but this will be my last post in the thread.

Someone should probably take over management of the list of omake ideas that I will no longer been maintaining.

It's been fun. Best of luck.
I'm sorry to see you go. You've been a great contributor.

I don't entirely understand your reasoning, though. There are lots of games which encourage behaviour patterns you wouldn't want to replicate in the real world. Most games, really. Starcraft, for example, encourages you to spend your resources as fast as you get them - any kind of "savings" put you at a competitive disadvantage. So do you avoid all games for this kind of reason?
 
I think the MfD's model of planning and the use of SOPs and checklists is great, and I would like to use it in real life. Maybe only on a weekly basis or a monthly thing, though.

Imagine your, say, cousin has cancer. You have speculative, but not unfounded, reason to believe their doctor has done unethical cancer research. You go to the head of medicine about these concerns; they're dismissive, so you tell them you'd go "pretty damn far" to protect your cousin, and they bring you to court for threatening their physician. In this case, your primary concern is getting them to pay attorney fees because such a statement isn't a threat in the same way an idea isn't copyrightable.

I don't think the situation you outlined is comparable to ours.

We are missing-nins, traitors and foreigners. We are exactly the kind of folks who cannot be trusted.
 
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Anyone want to go to the Balkans in the east? Unless they're in Mists SOI, it doesn't seem like anything goes on there, and very few hidden villages (that we know of; they could actually be hidden for once). Or, what do we know of any landmass beyond the elemental nations?
 
We still need to decide what to do, otherwise it will be a short update, and EJ will be most displeased.
Oh, don't worry. If you have no plan that just means I get to write what I want....

Was I supposed to get an alert from this? Because I didn't...

(despite being subscribed to the thread)
That's annoying...yes, you were supposed to. I don't know what's up with SV then. Did anyone else get an alert from that?



Welcome, @Neroki and @Veedrac! Those are great first contributions.
 
Briefings re: countries
@OliWhail @Velorien @eaglejarl What's River and Waterfall like from what we (and Mari) know? Stuff like how hard they are on missing nin, stuff that we'd need to know before getting dropped off there.

@eaglejarl @Velorien @OliWhail Did our books give us anything about Claw/Fang/Mountain/Bear?

Inoue-sensei gave you the following briefing on River back in Iron:

"Quick history lesson. Way back when, after a particularly bad drought, Sand decided to go annex some good arable land. Its northern neighbours aren't exactly poster children for agriculture either, and Rain and Grass managed to throw some kind of pact together with Claw at the last minute, so Sand decided to take a chunk out of River instead.

"Big mistake. River is a labyrinth, kids, a labyrinth that Hidden Valley ninja know like the back of their hand and nobody else does. Guerrilla warfare nearly bled Sand dry – oh, you know what I mean – and if they'd stayed any longer, odds are they'd have had Leaf buying free passage from River and going for a full-on invasion.

"Anyway, lesson learned, stay the hell out of River. Ever since, it's been a stable buffer state between Wind and Fire, and that's one reason why the two are such close allies. Meanwhile, River makes a mint facilitating trade between Wind and most of the rest of the continent. So the border between River and Fire isn't as patrolled as you might expect. Leaf would be crazy to invade, for both military and economic reasons, and anybody else would be crazy to invade through Leaf."

She is reluctant to talk to you more than she has to, but you've been able to glean the following about Waterfall:

- Waterfall is rumoured to possess a trove of overpowered secret ninjutsu, and to be the only non-EN village in possession of a Tailed Beast. At Inoue-sensei's Mist clearance, she has no way of knowing how true this is.
- Waterfall neigbours Iron, and used to neighbour Whirling Tides. It had front-row seats for what the Elemental Nations did to both, and this informs its foreign policy.
- Waterfall is allied with Grass, and its passive support is a significant factor in Grass's de facto leadership of the minor villages. It's also yet another reason for common neighbours Earth and Fire to stay well away.
- Waterfall does not involve itself in interactions with the wider world (as far as anyone knows), and does most of its commerce through Grass. Only a few extremely trusted outsiders ever get to see the village itself, which is said to be the most beautiful of all.

The Merchant's Gazetteer you picked up in Leaf has the following to say:

"Merchants seeking to trade with Waterfall are best off going to the Grass border towns of Mamura, Shigan or Ottori. Grass raised its tariffs on luxury goods last year, so don't get caught out, and avoid competing with locals on common agricultural produce. The political situation has been stable since the resolution of the Kanshin Affair, so you're unlikely to get caught in ninja crossfire, but rumours say that yakuza are developing a stronger presence in the area.

"River's exports of chakra beast body parts soared this spring, so get 'em while they're cheap. The Fire-River-Wind route is particularly profitable while the boom lasts, but be sure to hire River ninja guides or you might never be seen again!

"Tensions between Fang and Claw have risen again this year after an unusually high number of border incidents, so extreme caution is advised when crossing. Droughts in Fang are opening up possibilities for food trade, while the ascension of the new Claw daimyo after his predecessor's untimely demise presents an opportunity to build rich new business relationships.

"Reports from Mountain have been limited since none of the Merchant's Gazetteer contributors venture that far afield. Adventurous traders, please write in for the next edition!

"As for Bear, we reiterate our annual recommendation. Do not go to Bear."
 
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