We finessed the Conclave to (diplomatically) produce the largest force concentration in history. We assembled, motivated, and aimed the bosses at the Dragons - for the Bosses' own benefit - and did not get a jutsu, an unstagnation, a legendary artifact, a gift of arachnid-splinter silk pajamas…
For what fairness is due, we did get a lump of XP for skyslicing a dragon. Otherwise, I want to note that I straight up don't think Oro's path to power would have worked for us. We've had captive ninja before and I can't see any mechanism for extracting desirable jutsu from a captive who's inclined to sabotage you. Did the Sannin just luck out in picking targets who conveniently kept jutsu scrolls in lootable vaults? Are those common? Do research stats have some use we were never told about for reverse-engineering stuff? Is it just TH that does that?

EDIT: In that one interlude about the Sannin beating up the THer who created Strength of the Storm, how the hell did them beating him up actually translate to looting Strength of the Storm? Was he just randomly carrying scrolls of it?
 
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For what fairness is due, we did get a lump of XP for skyslicing a dragon. Otherwise, I want to note that I straight up don't think Oro's path to power would have worked for us. We've had captive ninja before and I can't see any mechanism for extracting desirable jutsu from a captive who's inclined to sabotage you. Did the Sannin just luck out in picking targets who conveniently kept jutsu scrolls in lootable vaults? Are those common? Do research stats have some use we were never told about for reverse-engineering stuff? Is it just TH that does that?
There is also the issue in that capturing other people with the intent of torturing information out of them, just for the sake of power, goes against the grain of what Uplift is, and (at least for me) would sour the quest somewhat.
 
There is also the issue in that capturing other people with the intent of torturing information out of them, just for the sake of power, goes against the grain of what Uplift is, and (at least for me) would sour the quest somewhat.

Yes, murderhoboing our way to Uplift sounds distasteful
 
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Providing jutsu honestly and earnestly is already a megabitch in effort, extracting jutsu forcefully from an unwilling participant should be absolute hell.
 
Perhaps the rift Jashin leads him toward is a connection to one of the other paths and whatever's in charge there won't let him leave without completing a grand quest (A fae-like set of beings?). We know Summon Bosses can prevent dimensional travel through summoning. Through some mechanism (a binding fey promise, the being in charge controlling the dimensional 'key' to safely get out) Hazo cannot trivially escape. This being can also inform him of dimensional time shenanigans so he's at least not catastrophically concerned about getting home (or informs him after he is catastrophically concerned).

I will note - The animal path fits rather well with what I think both the players and QM's want. It has:
  1. Plausible methods of ingress:
    • Dying+reverse summoning+potential biosealing failure sets Hazō's respawn to there.
      • This specific method finally gets mfd to be a rougelike: Hazō dying pops him back at full health, simply without the stats he earned last round.
      • Alternatively, he could keep his stats, but gets a time penalty of ~~ 1 week, making it punishing to die but not true rougelike.
  2. Known to be dangerous:
    • Toad sages said that it was a nasty wasteland that the Tenfold abomination popped out of.
    • Presumably also has more minor chakra beasts everywhere
  3. Disincentivizes lighthousing while still making research possible:
    • Presumably Hazō will need to both clear an area and secure a perimeter, things which his genin level combat stats do not facilitate.
      • He would also need to acquire both sealing grade paper and get substrate from somewhere (or have them be a limited resource to be spent grudgingly)
  4. Incentivizes finally increasing combat stats
  5. Has a simple escape route:
    • Once Hazō has gotten strong enough, he can attempt to research something that gets him to the seventh or human path.
      • Sealing failures are less concerning: he's already in a wasteland, and any sealing failures would help the seventh path stay connected to the human path. probably.
  6. The Qm's get to take a bit of a break:
    • They get to worry less about background details, as we're on the animal path with no civilization in sight.
    • They don't have to make incredibly efficient ninja designs, they can make presumably sloppier chakra beast ones.
    • Eaglejarl would finally get to write punching.
 
It occurs to me that if Hazou did manage to reach the Animal Path or whatever and manage to start regenerating chakra again, he would probably need to level Bones of Creation lol

Thanks for the gift Snuncle :^)
 
There is also the issue in that capturing other people with the intent of torturing information out of them, just for the sake of power, goes against the grain of what Uplift is, and (at least for me) would sour the quest somewhat.
I'd be down.

To me, Uplift is more of a "raise the average Standard of Living through infrastructure, economic, and societal change" thingy.

Being mean to people who tried to kill us for power so we can engage more with the ninja-punchy aspect of the quest? Fair game.
 
There is also the issue in that capturing other people with the intent of torturing information out of them, just for the sake of power, goes against the grain of what Uplift is, and (at least for me) would sour the quest somewhat.
I'd say that planning and participating in what is, at best, the mass abduction and murder of 66 Moon ninja and any associated civilian deaths from that, and at worst, the genocide of Moon (should their remaining ninja be unable to protect enough civilian lives so that Moon remains as an existing entity with its own culture), to stop the resurrection of Pain, which our murderer has assured us would be Very Bad (but as far as I am aware, we don't actually know what Pain wanted or his motivations), also goes against the grain of Uplift, more so than capturing specific individuals to torture and kill for their knowledge.
 
I'd say that planning and participating in what is, at best, the mass abduction and murder of 66 Moon ninja and any associated civilian deaths from that, and at worst, the genocide of Moon (should their remaining ninja be unable to protect enough civilian lives so that Moon remains as an existing entity with its own culture), to stop the resurrection of Pain, which our murderer has assured us would be Very Bad (but as far as I am aware, we don't actually know what Pain wanted or his motivations), also goes against the grain of Uplift, more so than capturing specific individuals to torture and kill for their knowledge.
Also, this.
 
Very fun update, @eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped ! I personally would like a continuation with the following traits:

*Preserves simulationism: The solution minimizes retcons; story continues onward with as much of this update canonized as possible.
*Preserves PoV: Hazou's perspective and role as mc continue.
*Feels Earned: The solution is both adequately foreshadowed by prior worldbuilding AND is a result of player action within the rules of that worldbuilding

Fortunately, there are at least two solutions that possess all these traits!

I. The Jashin Option

Plausibility: High, if Jashin is the 'washer' entity in Kamehameha's speech

As others have mentioned upthread: if the washerman is invested in the flow of souls between paths, and Hazou's EM proliferation switch goes off, the flow of souls will be permanently interrupted by the cessation of life on the Human Path. Luckily there is a very convenient solution to this which is both timely and, of all things, supported by Naruto canon!



If Hidan is in the Pure Lands, then Hazou may be the most powerful Jashinist on the Human Path. Moreover, he has just - at direct player behest - successfully sacrificed many lives to Jashin in a single cataclysmic burst, with his prayer and dedication prior to firing the RER barrage. Furthermore, Jashin has a strong vested interest in Hazou's death not coming to pass.

One could argue, therefore, that Hazou has just fulfilled the requirements to attain Hidan-style immortality, becoming Jashin's prophet on the Human Path.

And the prophet of Jashin cannot be slain by mortal hands.

Pros:
*Adequately foreshadowed by prior worldbuilding and existing Naruto canon
*Earned by direct player action
*Congruent with Hazou's immense achievements and longstanding relationship with Jashin
*Ironic yet appropriate timing
*Elegant - no retcons necessary as long as King Kamehameha was right about the 'washer' entity and the washer entity is Jashin
*Bonus - Hidan-style regeneration lowers the stakes of in-person combat and makes Hazou a virtually priceless combat asset, creating strong incentives for Hazou to participate directly in combat scenes
*If Hazou has Hidan-style regeneration, many portions of the setting do not have to be modeled as closely / with as much care, because they become less relevant on the margin

Hazou's remains begin to stitch themselves together - slowly, imperceptibly, then all at once. Hazou must navigate this post-betrayal world, avoid capture by Orochimaru (regeneration is no guarantee of relevance), contend with Akatsuki and organize matters in Konoha and beyond.

II. Mangekyo Iron Nerve

Plausibility: Pretty High

This scenario was a genjutsu / psyop by Orochimaru intended to spark the Mangekyo Iron Nerve in Hazou. Orochimaru knows how to do this from his experimentation on Ren. Why does Orochimaru want to spark a free powerup for Hazou?

Because immediately killing Hazou at this juncture isn't actually in his best interests. The ideal world for Orochimaru is one where all world-ending threats are contained or neutralized and all major powers are eliminated or subservient to him. Were he to slay Hazou now and depart with the rift, he would be hunted by the full force of Leaf and Akatsuki without the distraction of the Goketsu splitting their forces and attention. That is a level of heat he's survived before, but not while also perpetually guarding a mostly-static interdimensional rift. There is even the (small but nontrivial) risk that Akatsuki somehow believe Leaf and the two adversaries combine forces to hunt him.

If Oro simply buries the rift in a volcano or something, there's the risk that Itachi detects it with his cheating eyeballs or an exotic Crow technique, or that a Hyuuga THer finds it, or that Leaf's sealmaster corps (or Sasori) produce seals capable of locating it. As time goes on, the chance of Nagato being on the other side of that closed rift increases, so he suffers mounting existential risks each day the rift stays unguarded. Any guard less than himself would barely deter Akatsuki.

If he has to stay moving with the rift while also on the run, he can't build a comprehensive lab or power base and has to continually invest nontrivial amounts of chakra in rift-kicking and moving runes. If he holes up in one place, he leaves himself vulnerable to being Zoo Rushed or Amaterasu'd from range.

Therefore, it is in Orochimaru's best interests for Leaf and Akatsuki to exhaust each other - ideally, destroy each other - and have no energy to spend chasing him. As he currently believes Akatsuki to have the edge in that contest, powering up their chief antagonist while maintaining an effortless killswitch is the optimal move.

Oro's ideal timeline is this:
Week 1: Oro is 'moving the rift to Leaf.' Hazou, now trusting uncle Oro even more than before, returns to Leaf to fortify it against aggression
Week 2: Akatsuki forces assault Leaf, Hazou's Runes allow Leaf to bleed Akatsuki and ideally kill several members. Oro makes plausible excuses for why the Rift hasn't arrived yet.
Week 3+: Oro's treachery becomes apparent, but Leaf and Akatsuki have expended all their dry powder against each other in Week 2. Only after confirmation of events in Leaf vs Akatsuki does Oro trigger the bioseal in Hazou, killing him.

I would therefore argue it is more plausible for Oro to wait until Week 3+ before triggering the bioseal. Akatsuki already knows Runes exist (they participated in the Dragonwar) and won't be able to reverse engineer anything from Hazou's rune blanks just as they weren't able to reverse engineering anything from the Great Seal, which was a much more comprehensive 'primer' on the subject. Leaking the specific datum "the now-dead Hazou was capable of creating Runes" to the surviving Akatsuki is more than worth the average cost in Akatsuki lives Hazou's offensive Runes would reap - and more importantly, maintaining the status quo for a few weeks more ensures that Leaf and Akatsuki remain at each other's throats while he gets away, while creating the explosive new variable of Hazou's death generates far less predictable outcomes.

It is consistent with Hazou's characterization in previous plans that he would seek to have the bioseal removed ASAP, and this would give the players a bit of time to invent a solution (more time than Oro anticipates, given the existence of TR).

---

My preferred solution? A combination of both! After Jashin regenerates Hazou, the massive emotional trauma of Orochimaru's betrayal would naturally have awoken his Mangekyo Iron Nerve! It is somewhat overdramatic for Hazou to get two huge buffs out of this but that's just how the simulationist dice roll sometimes - it was already well-established that Mangekyo requries massive emotional trauma, and Hazou hadn't sacrificed an immense number of lives to Jashin (while Hidan was absent from the Human Path) until just recently.

Even better if the Mangekyo Iron Nerve grants large, immediate combat-relevant buffs that would further justify Hazou's presence on kinetic missions.

The afterlife continuation sounds cool but would require more nudging - either a chakra oasis or some kind of workaround for Hazou's powers to stay relevant in the Pure Lands, lest he be consigned to merely Hidan's sidekick with mostly-useless theoretical knowledge.

The Jashin Option, on the other hand, works completely within the textual evidence as presented by previous updates, and would easily allow for future combats with less terminal stakes! Stakes wouldn't be eliminated since Hazou could still be captured, but 'being captured' is not a quest-end scenario so the players will be more likely to vote for lines of action that involve combat.

I really like doing a combination of these if we decide to continue the quest, mostly just because it encourages doing more fun stuff and less lighthousing/meetings for a million chapters. Hazo would still be very outclassed by every S-rank but now you can give him actual reasons to go acquire lore and explore without the players being absolutely terrified of getting murdered and always doing the lowest risk thing that they can think of. Also, it introduces a new plotline of "Orochimaru has the Rift and immortality - he'll try to kill you if he finds you, but there's nothing pressing about him having the Rift that will end thr world." Orochimaru is powerful and scary and we want to take the Rift from him to achieve our goals - but he isn't Pain and he isn't Akatsuki. It's not pressing in the same way that it would be otherwise. There's a very fun arc that can be had about going around the Elemental Nations and exploring outside them, looking for esoteric knowledge and things that would help to kill the literally immortal Orochimaru.
 
I will note - The animal path fits rather well with what I think both the players and QM's want. It has:
  1. Plausible methods of ingress:
    • Dying+reverse summoning+potential biosealing failure sets Hazō's respawn to there.
      • This specific method finally gets mfd to be a rougelike: Hazō dying pops him back at full health, simply without the stats he earned last round.
      • Alternatively, he could keep his stats, but gets a time penalty of ~~ 1 week, making it punishing to die but not true rougelike.
  2. Known to be dangerous:
    • Toad sages said that it was a nasty wasteland that the Tenfold abomination popped out of.
    • Presumably also has more minor chakra beasts everywhere
  3. Disincentivizes lighthousing while still making research possible:
    • Presumably Hazō will need to both clear an area and secure a perimeter, things which his genin level combat stats do not facilitate.
      • He would also need to acquire both sealing grade paper and get substrate from somewhere (or have them be a limited resource to be spent grudgingly)
  4. Incentivizes finally increasing combat stats
  5. Has a simple escape route:
    • Once Hazō has gotten strong enough, he can attempt to research something that gets him to the seventh or human path.
      • Sealing failures are less concerning: he's already in a wasteland, and any sealing failures would help the seventh path stay connected to the human path. probably.
  6. The Qm's get to take a bit of a break:
    • They get to worry less about background details, as we're on the animal path with no civilization in sight.
    • They don't have to make incredibly efficient ninja designs, they can make presumably sloppier chakra beast ones.
    • Eaglejarl would finally get to write punching.

I like it, I like it a lot.

It's plausible to me that there's a higher density of loot both secured and unsecured compared to the Human path that is crawling with looters. If the animal path is the source of chakra beasts that don't appear to value and use knowledge, it's doubtful they've looted or exploited much, if anything.

Secured in the form of caches or shelters built with exotic forms of chakra manipulation or materials. I assume the Sage and his companions had need to rest at some point.

Unsecured in the form of remnants of runes, earth ninjutsu that use exotic material that would survive the ages. We know there's more great seals (if my memory serves), perhaps there's one around here.

I would also imagine there's uniquely valuable and useful plants (maybe some of that fruit Orochimaru mentioned). Useful rocks to Earthshape perhaps.

Depending on the amount of time floopiness, perhaps even an alive companion of the Sage is around. If that's too direct a connection to lore, a descendent who remained stuck for a reason or another.

Though if there's timey wimey things happening how do you square that with chakra beasts presumably entering the Human Path from Animal (My assumption as to what's happening)

I can picture Hazo covered in the blood of beasts and traumatized.

Lots of potential here!
 
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I'd say that planning and participating in what is, at best, the mass abduction and murder of 66 Moon ninja and any associated civilian deaths from that, and at worst, the genocide of Moon (should their remaining ninja be unable to protect enough civilian lives so that Moon remains as an existing entity with its own culture), to stop the resurrection of Pain, which our murderer has assured us would be Very Bad (but as far as I am aware, we don't actually know what Pain wanted or his motivations), also goes against the grain of Uplift, more so than capturing specific individuals to torture and kill for their knowledge.
I would think that doing Bad Things for the sole purpose of attaining personal power, when we have the alternative of doing non-Bad Things like research to attain the same thing, would be worse.
 
I would think that doing Bad Things for the sole purpose of attaining personal power, when we have the alternative of doing non-Bad Things like research to attain the same thing, would be worse.
I don't disagree. I will, however, argue that the people we would capture, torture and kill have a high probability of being murderers themselves, who jealously guard their knowledge because it gives them an edge in murdering, and that without Hazou aggressively taking over their knowledge and research, would likely go on to murder more innocents than Hazou.
 
I've learned my lesson with trying to herd cats and do diplomacy. From now on, just murder anyone who gets in our way of Uplift.

If the setting doesn't respect anyone without sufficient punching power and willingness to use it, then let's ball.
 
I think its very realistic that Hazo who has essentially adopted an Earth modern, Liberal, mindset would run into so many people who seek to take advantage of for their short-term gain instead of cooperate for the long-term benefit. Or people who simply look at him like he is an alien who has sprouted two heads because his mindset essentially IS alien to the Elemental Nations.

Hazo's mindset is literally the mindset of a collective of people in the 21st century and all the baggage that entails. Not somebody who grew up in a feudal military dictatorship society. We had to invent Hazo-pilot because something as simple as "Asking clans to reveal clan secrets is a redline" was so outside of our own context that we needed help not committing constant social & tactical faux-pas.

It makes sense that nobody wants to cooperate with us because the conditions where that cooperation is to their benefit don't exist yet and I always thought that the long-term goal of Uplift, beyond the obvious humanitarian goals, was to create a society where the benefit of cooperation outweighed the benefit of competition & sabotage.
 
I'd say that planning and participating in what is, at best, the mass abduction and murder of 66 Moon ninja and any associated civilian deaths from that, and at worst, the genocide of Moon (should their remaining ninja be unable to protect enough civilian lives so that Moon remains as an existing entity with its own culture), to stop the resurrection of Pain, which our murderer has assured us would be Very Bad (but as far as I am aware, we don't actually know what Pain wanted or his motivations), also goes against the grain of Uplift, more so than capturing specific individuals to torture and kill for their knowledge.


yep, but it tracks very well with Uplift being mostly Hazo's self-delusion for which he's willing to cross basically any moral line. setting up a 'destroy the world' deadman's switch is even more so this.
 
Interesting idea. I like the concept, but I don't think it would would work because bioseals are not minatoseals and minatoseals are not bioseals; bioseals are inscribed on flesh or bones, whereas minatoseals are inscribed on the chakra system itself. There's not any way for them to interact by default.
This particular bioseal is directly connected to the chakra coils, though, and... well, it doesn't really need to work exactly the way Hazo was hoping it would work, just start from some concept sufficiently plausible that he'd give it a shot while he's got nothing left to lose, then yield a vaguely related effect which enables the story to continue. Ideally including some clues toward what sorts of things Minatosealing is supposed to be good at, which so far we know far too little about for it to get the degree of research priority it probably deserves.
Aiming for "reverse the last ten seconds of bioseal degradation, and disable the trigger point which caused it" but instead getting e.g. "transport my consciousness back in time 100+ hours" is not exactly an unqualified success, and if that sort of time travel is then explicitly known to Hazo to be a sealing-failure effect, he'd have good cause to avoid poking at it thereafter, rather than exploiting for unlimited do-overs.
If Minatosealing's inherent specialty is "self-stabilizing" types of chakra constructs, and it's naturally good at doing 'surgery' on other kinds of seals, that could explain a lot about Konan, and chakra golems, and provide a research route toward properly repairing the existing Great Seal rather than trying to replace it.
 
yep, but it tracks very well with Uplift being mostly Hazo's self-delusion for which he's willing to cross basically any moral line. setting up a 'destroy the world' deadman's switch is even more so this.
I don't necessarily agree that Uplift is mostly Hazou's self-delusion, but I do think that he often acts in ways that are incongruous to those professed beliefs, with the deadman's switch being an extreme case of it.

To be completely honest, seeing an offshoot of the "rationalist" community (even if it is by now a far removed one and generally more, uh, reasonable) plan a genocide and then an omnicide (both in the name of Good, of course!) was a great source of amusement for me.
 
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Nothing less than "apocalyptic threat" would make Oro fuck off, but the issue is he doesn't believe Hazou is capable or willing to make such a trigger so it doesn't actually deter him...
 
I don't necessarily agree that Uplift is mostly Hazou's self-delusion, but I do think that he often acts in ways that are incongruous to those professed beliefs, with the deadman's switch being an extreme case of it.

To be completely honest, seeing an offshoot of the "rationalist" community (even if it is by now a far removed one and generally more, uh, reasonable) plan a genocide and then an omnicide (both in the name of Good, of course!) was a great source of amusement for me.
I guess you haven't read Project Lawful? Written by the ur-rationalist, in which the protagonist decides that the universe is poorly ruled by its gods, and so decides that omnicide is his best alternative to a negotiated agreement.

You may find it silly, but it is entirely within character for the "rationalist" community. Although I think we perhaps didn't play the hand in the best way, since it didn't work and we ended up breaking the world instead of saving it (you're supposed to win).

Otoh, humanity in mfd-verse was/is heading for extinction anyway, which seems like it should justify greater risks. I don't know if we have any estimates for how many generations away humanities extinction is.
 
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