I want to know what Ami is frickin doing

edit:
Does this *actually* means he considered us with a soft spot, even though said positive feelings does not overwhelm how much he wanted to kill us?
I think so. Although I have been importantly wrong about him twice, as opposed to the once of the majority of the players.
edit2: or, i don't think it because of what you quote. I think it because of all the interactions we've had so far
edit3: or maybe it's 3 and 2 times, if we count the time about trying to legalese him in the dragon parts trade
 
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@eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped It occurs to me that Oro has a strong motive to remove all evidence of runes, and would exclusively dispose of runes via activating them to avoid runic failures. Therefore I suggest that Hazou is soon joined in the afterlife by Orochimaru shortly after the latter tries to activate the Superchiller via SC and underestimates the minimum safe distance due to having a lack of any precedent, and also that Hazou looks him directly in the eye and deadpans "So, you were saying?".

Alternatively, for a more plausible but less funny alternative, Hazou FreezeBabyFreeze activated it the moment Orochimaru started discussing Hazou in the past tense.
 
We probably didn't even need to get the bioseals to win (given the Great Chakra Shuffle). Why don't we just rewind to before getting the bioseals, fast foward back to the fight, and rereun the simulation for RIFTWAR.

We would just have an increased probability of Hidan finding us, and then lose out on having Cannai.
 
@eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped It occurs to me that Oro has a strong motive to remove all evidence of runes, and would exclusively dispose of runes via activating them to avoid runic failures. Therefore I suggest that Hazou is soon joined in the afterlife by Orochimaru shortly after the latter tries to activate the Superchiller via SC and underestimates the minimum safe distance due to having a lack of any precedent, and also that Hazou looks him directly in the eye and deadpans "So, you were saying?".

Alternatively, for a more plausible but less funny alternative, Hazou FreezeBabyFreeze activated it the moment Orochimaru started discussing Hazou in the past tense.
"I didn't think I needed to actually tell you about my contingency plans. I didn't think you were this stupid. Guess we both learned a lesson here, huh?"
 
We probably didn't even need to get the bioseals to win (given the Great Chakra Shuffle). Why don't we just rewind to before getting the bioseals, fast foward back to the fight, and rereun the simulation for RIFTWAR.

We would just have an increased probability of Hidan finding us, and then lose out on having Cannai.
There is some argument around this, but Oro just kills us the old fashioned way if we do this. He may have to make more than 0 effort to locate Hazo Prime, but... Come on, he's Oro. He's got some summon or bioseal nonsense that can sniff Hazo out when we're less than a mile from him. He simply punches our head off and we're back at this same place.
 
There is some argument around this, but Oro just kills us the old fashioned way if we do this. He may have to make more than 0 effort to locate Hazo Prime, but... Come on, he's Oro. He's got some summon or bioseal nonsense that can sniff Hazo out when we're less than a mile from him. He simply punches our head off and we're back at this same place.
We are sort of limited in our options because of this. Like, we now know Snuncle was made of snakes this whole time, so any solution we have must necessitate removing him from being a threat for us. Unless we could ask for a retcon that says Oro was 20% more loyal to Leaf, and that tipped the value calculations about killing us the other way?
 
Very fun update, @eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped ! I personally would like a continuation with the following traits:

*Preserves simulationism: The solution minimizes retcons; story continues onward with as much of this update canonized as possible.
*Preserves PoV: Hazou's perspective and role as mc continue.
*Feels Earned: The solution is both adequately foreshadowed by prior worldbuilding AND is a result of player action within the rules of that worldbuilding

Fortunately, there are at least two solutions that possess all these traits!

I. The Jashin Option

Plausibility: High, if Jashin is the 'washer' entity in Kamehameha's speech

As others have mentioned upthread: if the washerman is invested in the flow of souls between paths, and Hazou's EM proliferation switch goes off, the flow of souls will be permanently interrupted by the cessation of life on the Human Path. Luckily there is a very convenient solution to this which is both timely and, of all things, supported by Naruto canon!

https://naruto.fandom.com/wiki/Jashin said:
In Akatsuki Hiden, Hidan says he was granted this [immortality] in exchange for the many sacrifices he and his fellow worshippers made... In Konoha Shinden, Ryūki [further clarifies that] this immortality is granted by Jashin in exchange for the ritualistic sacrifice of several people at once...

If Hidan is in the Pure Lands, then Hazou may be the most powerful Jashinist on the Human Path. Moreover, he has just - at direct player behest - successfully sacrificed many lives to Jashin in a single cataclysmic burst, with his prayer and dedication prior to firing the RER barrage. Furthermore, Jashin has a strong vested interest in Hazou's death not coming to pass.

One could argue, therefore, that Hazou has just fulfilled the requirements to attain Hidan-style immortality, becoming Jashin's prophet on the Human Path.

And the prophet of Jashin cannot be slain by mortal hands.

Pros:
*Adequately foreshadowed by prior worldbuilding and existing Naruto canon
*Earned by direct player action
*Congruent with Hazou's immense achievements and longstanding relationship with Jashin
*Ironic yet appropriate timing
*Elegant - no retcons necessary as long as King Kamehameha was right about the 'washer' entity and the washer entity is Jashin
*Bonus - Hidan-style regeneration lowers the stakes of in-person combat and makes Hazou a virtually priceless combat asset, creating strong incentives for Hazou to participate directly in combat scenes
*If Hazou has Hidan-style regeneration, many portions of the setting do not have to be modeled as closely / with as much care, because they become less relevant on the margin

Hazou's remains begin to stitch themselves together - slowly, imperceptibly, then all at once. Hazou must navigate this post-betrayal world, avoid capture by Orochimaru (regeneration is no guarantee of relevance), contend with Akatsuki and organize matters in Konoha and beyond.

II. Mangekyo Iron Nerve

Plausibility: Pretty High

This scenario was a genjutsu / psyop by Orochimaru intended to spark the Mangekyo Iron Nerve in Hazou. Orochimaru knows how to do this from his experimentation on Ren. Why does Orochimaru want to spark a free powerup for Hazou?

Because immediately killing Hazou at this juncture isn't actually in his best interests. The ideal world for Orochimaru is one where all world-ending threats are contained or neutralized and all major powers are eliminated or subservient to him. Were he to slay Hazou now and depart with the rift, he would be hunted by the full force of Leaf and Akatsuki without the distraction of the Goketsu splitting their forces and attention. That is a level of heat he's survived before, but not while also perpetually guarding a mostly-static interdimensional rift. There is even the (small but nontrivial) risk that Akatsuki somehow believe Leaf and the two adversaries combine forces to hunt him.

If Oro simply buries the rift in a volcano or something, there's the risk that Itachi detects it with his cheating eyeballs or an exotic Crow technique, or that a Hyuuga THer finds it, or that Leaf's sealmaster corps (or Sasori) produce seals capable of locating it. As time goes on, the chance of Nagato being on the other side of that closed rift increases, so he suffers mounting existential risks each day the rift stays unguarded. Any guard less than himself would barely deter Akatsuki.

If he has to stay moving with the rift while also on the run, he can't build a comprehensive lab or power base and has to continually invest nontrivial amounts of chakra in rift-kicking and moving runes. If he holes up in one place, he leaves himself vulnerable to being Zoo Rushed or Amaterasu'd from range.

Therefore, it is in Orochimaru's best interests for Leaf and Akatsuki to exhaust each other - ideally, destroy each other - and have no energy to spend chasing him. As he currently believes Akatsuki to have the edge in that contest, powering up their chief antagonist while maintaining an effortless killswitch is the optimal move.

Oro's ideal timeline is this:
Week 1: Oro is 'moving the rift to Leaf.' Hazou, now trusting uncle Oro even more than before, returns to Leaf to fortify it against aggression
Week 2: Akatsuki forces assault Leaf, Hazou's Runes allow Leaf to bleed Akatsuki and ideally kill several members. Oro makes plausible excuses for why the Rift hasn't arrived yet.
Week 3+: Oro's treachery becomes apparent, but Leaf and Akatsuki have expended all their dry powder against each other in Week 2. Only after confirmation of events in Leaf vs Akatsuki does Oro trigger the bioseal in Hazou, killing him.

I would therefore argue it is more plausible for Oro to wait until Week 3+ before triggering the bioseal. Akatsuki already knows Runes exist (they participated in the Dragonwar) and won't be able to reverse engineer anything from Hazou's rune blanks just as they weren't able to reverse engineering anything from the Great Seal, which was a much more comprehensive 'primer' on the subject. Leaking the specific datum "the now-dead Hazou was capable of creating Runes" to the surviving Akatsuki is more than worth the average cost in Akatsuki lives Hazou's offensive Runes would reap - and more importantly, maintaining the status quo for a few weeks more ensures that Leaf and Akatsuki remain at each other's throats while he gets away, while creating the explosive new variable of Hazou's death generates far less predictable outcomes.

It is consistent with Hazou's characterization in previous plans that he would seek to have the bioseal removed ASAP, and this would give the players a bit of time to invent a solution (more time than Oro anticipates, given the existence of TR).

---

My preferred solution? A combination of both! After Jashin regenerates Hazou, the massive emotional trauma of Orochimaru's betrayal would naturally have awoken his Mangekyo Iron Nerve! It is somewhat overdramatic for Hazou to get two huge buffs out of this but that's just how the simulationist dice roll sometimes - it was already well-established that Mangekyo requries massive emotional trauma, and Hazou hadn't sacrificed an immense number of lives to Jashin (while Hidan was absent from the Human Path) until just recently.

Even better if the Mangekyo Iron Nerve grants large, immediate combat-relevant buffs that would further justify Hazou's presence on kinetic missions.

The afterlife continuation sounds cool but would require more nudging - either a chakra oasis or some kind of workaround for Hazou's powers to stay relevant in the Pure Lands, lest he be consigned to merely Hidan's sidekick with mostly-useless theoretical knowledge.

The Jashin Option, on the other hand, works completely within the textual evidence as presented by previous updates, and would easily allow for future combats with less terminal stakes! Stakes wouldn't be eliminated since Hazou could still be captured, but 'being captured' is not a quest-end scenario so the players will be more likely to vote for lines of action that involve combat.
 
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Alternatively, for a more plausible but less funny alternative, Hazou FreezeBabyFreeze activated it the moment Orochimaru started discussing Hazou in the past tense.

I mean, you could probably have Prime dispel HazouExistsForSignalingPurposes remotely once it was clear that Orochimaru was gonna kill us, and then Hazou ArmageddonInitiative could activate the Superchiller a bit before Oro flips his killswitch...
 
Ah, the perfect solution:

We arrive in the afterlife, and Ami is here to meet us. She predicted we would over-invest in our relationship with Oro, and after conferring with a council of her Unchained SCs, decided to die and create a settlement in the afterlife that allowed us a staging point to break back out of it. In the time we've been alive, she's even come up with ways to replenish (some) chakra in the Pure Lands.

If we have Bones of Creation at 1, can we teach it?
 
The best way to sum up how I'm feeling right now is grim acceptance. Given what we knew at the time I still think the players made the right choice in accepting the bioseals.

One of the worst case scenarios was getting detected while approaching the Rift. Being detected risked apocalyptic runic failure, a total party wipe due to an Akatsuki counter-attack, and Leaf being razed to the ground. I do not think that we had any realistic alternatives for avoiding Hidan's bloodsense.

I also don't think we had better alternatives than trusting Oro anyways. I agree with the many other players who have said that Oro could have killed us at any time. The bioseals hardly matter when I don't think there's the slightest chance Hazō could survive Oro seriously attempting to kill him.

I don't think we could have hidden runes from Oro either. Hazō is completely incapable of socials and always will be. I resigned myself to that when a player asked the QMs if we could remove the Open Mouth Insert Foot debuff if Hazō's characterization changed sufficiently and the answer was no.

At that point why even bother investing XP into socials? No matter what we do, Hazō is and always will be a bad coinflip from ending up in the killbox. It's a large part of what forces so many sanity-checks.

Anyways I got off-topic. I would not want a rollback to the bioseals not getting installed or Hazō not going off with Oro alone.

I would prefer that Oro, when confronted with Hazō's deadman's switch, decides that since he can't kill Hazō he will take him as an apprentice to keep an eye on him. This would allow Oro to watch closely over Hazō to prevent runecrafting proliferation while also giving Oro the opportunity to over time convince Hazō that proliferation is a bad idea.

Alternatively I would like to see Snowflake killing Hazō to remove the bioseals. It'd be perfectly fitting for Kei to have already thought of killing Hazō to remove his bioseals but to not seriously entertain the idea. On the other hand Snowflake — of her own volition and without Kei suspecting a thing — decides the only way to save Hazō it to kill him. Snowflake can't risk bringing anyone else in on her plan in on this in case they disagree and move to protect Hazō instead. If Snowflake pops, Kei will immediately know Snowflake seriously considering murdering Hazō. So she'll tell Hazō meet her as Prime in a secluded location one-on-one so she can confess something to him. Naturally, Hazō misunderstands. (Romcom shenanigans ensue and conclude in a fatal stabbing.)

A variant of this would be Kagome working with Kei or Snowflake or team Uplift to kill Hazō and save him. Kagome went missing so suddenly that it feels like it was foreshadowing for him to return to save the day.

No matter how the quest continues, I would also love to see a brief non-canon epilogue chapter where Oro is confident he can disarm Hazō's deadman's switch and fails, causing the world to end in EM nukes.
 
Post Scriptum, but at the top:
The reaction post is more-or-less live. I did not read all the way through before putting down my thoughts.

Chapter 702: The Final Lesson
Hmm… how foreboding. The title reminds me of a short story called The Last Lesson. /tangent

Maybe...maybe pensive? That made no sense.
Interesting… I wonder what reveal is forthcoming.

"Do you know why I call you 'nephew'?"
Oh wow! One of the greatest questions of the setting is about to be answered, and we didn't even have to ask!

"On a given axis, true," Hazō said carefully. "Some can lift more, some can run faster, some can draw more accurately. I'm not sure what it would mean to say that some are better as a general statement."

"A very political statement from the former Clan Head. Very savvy. Unobjectionable, hints at wisdom. Shows a certain common touch that should endear you to the average ninja."
Look, Snuncle, not all are created equal in the sense that they all share the same qualities and flaws, but all are created equal in that they deserve the same respect as people.

"Biosealing is a very rare art. It requires extensive knowledge of sealing and of medicine and of medical jutsu. A thorough grounding in jutsu creation is also of great benefit."
Neat. Teach us plz.

"People change over time. Trite, I know, but it is strange to look back on the version of yourself that lived thirty or even forty years ago. It is like looking across a chasm at an entirely different person with entirely different goals and desires, yet knowing that the person is actually yourself. Can you imagine how that feels, boy?"
I feel like I'm too young to know how this feels, but I do.

How to sing better than anyone else and what beer was available at the Soggy Tag that night."
Now here I call bull. Snuncle Warcrimes does not sing for fun. BS.

"You are the only person in your generation that I recognize as a visionary."
Gee, thanks! We sure do try!

"Operation Needle Point, leading to the death of my teacher. Oh, and to the death of three jinchūriki, my brother in arms, most of the Kage, and a significant plurality of the jōnin from several nations and almost none from others. In essence, unsettling the geopolitics of the entire known world and causing the deaths of nearly everyone that I still cared about."
Wait, Oro still cared about people other than Jiraya, Taunade and Hiruzen?

"They'll be wrong, but they will.
Now why are you so confident that you're right and they're wrong, huh? What do you know that they don't?

"Jutsu, seals, medical techniques. The three pillars of chakra manipulation. The only known such methods for all of human history. Three fundamental, irreducible pillars of chakra manipulation for all of history. And now, a fourth: runecrafting."
Hmm, so Snuncle considers medical ninjutsu as a completely separate type of chakra manipulation? Interesting…

"I don't intend to be the next Orochimaru or Jiraiya or Tsunade."
Yup! We're gonna be better!

Orochimaru chuckled in honest amusement. "Better. Continue in that vein and perhaps there would be hope. Do you wish to be remembered as the first of anything? In that case, avoid modesty, humility, and relatability. The Sannin exhibited none of those traits. We dominated the world with hubris and the ability to back it up. You wish to change the way things are? Prove that you have the power to crush your enemies and make sure they know it."
The three virtues of a great programmer are lazyness, impatience and hubris, y'know.

"Worse, you are simply so...so..." The Snake Sannin shook his head in frustration. "So stupid.
Hey, no need to get personal with the hivemind, here!

A brilliant researcher with not the slightest trace of wisdom. What is the first thing you do? You notify every sealmaster in Leaf that this new paradigm exists. You make available a model of the Great Seal.
Oh, come on! We didn't know we'd be able to reverse-engineer the process of making the thing! And we really needed help.

You provide every scrap of knowledge you have that might allow the village plodders to master the art.
Absolutely not! We didn't show them the one thing that made it possible for us to actually start runecrafting: the substrate from the Honey cave.

You even taught it to the Snake Sannin."
Again, we needed help. Plus, y'know, shinies.

Did anything about our initial encounters give you the impression that I was a friendly, approachable person?
Friendly, no. Approachable given a good offer, yes absolutely.

You cannot possibly be such an idiot that you do not recognize this, yet still you shout your secret from the rooftops, actively push it into the hands of anyone who wanders past.
Uhh, we definitely did not push it into anybody's hands. We kept the practical aspect (i.e. substrate) very much to ourselves.

"I didn't want to share it," Hazō said defensively. "I had to. The Dragons were killing. They were a threat to the entire Seventh Path, and perhaps to the Human Path as well. I wasn't sure I could learn runecrafting fast enough to solve the problem alone, but failure wasn't acceptable. I needed help."
Exactly.

There is your humility again. Abandon it, nephew. If you wish to ever matter in the world, carve the sin of humility from your soul. Never entertain the possibility of failure, and for the love of all things, stop shouting the secrets of your power to the world."
Ok, fine by me. You may not like the outcome though.

"Or study biosealing," Orochimaru said at last. "Learn how to remove the chakra coils from a more powerful ninja and install them into yourself. Understand the implications and the risks."
Bet. Lessons start when?

"Moreover," Orochimaru said at last, "if there is someone else in the world who will be advantaged by your removal as a rival, do not gormlessly allow them to operate on you."
Uhh, we didn't really have a better option…

The agony lasted but a moment; Gōketsu Hazō was dead before he hit the ground.
Oh cold hells…

What will Kei say…

Jiraya is not going to be pleased with Snuncle Warcrimes when we come back to life.

Also,
[Χ] Armageddon Initiative
but for real this time
 
Very fun update, @eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped ! I personally would like a continuation with the following traits:

*Preserves simulationism: The solution minimizes retcons; story continues onward with as much of this update canonized as possible.
*Preserves PoV: Hazou's perspective and role as mc continue.
*Feels Earned: The solution is both adequately foreshadowed by prior worldbuilding AND is a result of player action within the rules of that worldbuilding

Fortunately, there are at least two solutions that possess all these traits!

I. The Jashin Option

Plausibility: High, if Jashin is the 'washer' entity in Kamehameha's speech

As others have mentioned upthread: if the washerman is invested in the flow of souls between paths, and Hazou's EM proliferation switch goes off, the flow of souls will be permanently interrupted by the cessation of life on the Human Path. Luckily there is a very convenient solution to this which is both timely and, of all things, supported by Naruto canon!



If Hidan is in the Pure Lands, then Hazou may be the most powerful Jashinist on the Human Path. Moreover, he has just - at direct player behest - successfully sacrificed many lives to Jashin in a single cataclysmic burst, with his prayer and dedication prior to firing the RER barrage. Furthermore, Jashin has a strong vested interest in Hazou's death not coming to pass.

One could argue, therefore, that Hazou has just fulfilled the requirements to attain Hidan-style immortality, becoming Jashin's prophet on the Human Path.

And the prophet of Jashin cannot be slain by mortal hands.

Pros:
*Adequately foreshadowed by prior worldbuilding and existing Naruto canon
*Earned by direct player action
*Congruent with Hazou's immense achievements and longstanding relationship with Jashin
*Ironic yet appropriate timing
*Elegant - no retcons necessary as long as King Kamehameha was right about the 'washer' entity and the washer entity is Jashin
*Bonus - Hidan-style regeneration lowers the stakes of in-person combat and makes Hazou a virtually priceless combat asset, creating strong incentives for Hazou to participate directly in combat scenes
*If Hazou has Hidan-style regeneration, many portions of the setting do not have to be modeled as closely / with as much care, because they become less relevant on the margin

Hazou's remains begin to stitch themselves together - slowly, imperceptibly, then all at once. Hazou must navigate this post-betrayal world, avoid capture by Orochimaru (regeneration is no guarantee of relevance), contend with Akatsuki and organize matters in Konoha and beyond.

II. Mangekyo Iron Nerve

Plausibility: Pretty High

This scenario was a genjutsu / psyop by Orochimaru intended to spark the Mangekyo Iron Nerve in Hazou. Orochimaru knows how to do this from his experimentation on Ren. Why does Orochimaru want to spark a free powerup for Hazou?

Because immediately killing Hazou at this juncture isn't actually in his best interests. The ideal world for Orochimaru is one where all world-ending threats are contained or neutralized and all major powers are eliminated or subservient to him. Were he to slay Hazou now and depart with the rift, he would be hunted by the full force of Leaf and Akatsuki without the distraction of the Goketsu splitting their forces and attention. That is a level of heat he's survived before, but not while also perpetually guarding a mostly-static interdimensional rift. There is even the (small but nontrivial) risk that Akatsuki somehow believe Leaf and the two adversaries combine forces to hunt him.

If Oro simply buries the rift in a volcano or something, there's the risk that Itachi detects it with his cheating eyeballs or an exotic Crow technique, or that a Hyuuga THer finds it, or that Leaf's sealmaster corps (or Sasori) produce seals capable of locating it. As time goes on, the chance of Nagato being on the other side of that closed rift increases, so he suffers mounting existential risks each day the rift stays unguarded. Any guard less than himself would barely deter Akatsuki.

If he has to stay moving with the rift while also on the run, he can't build a comprehensive lab or power base and has to continually invest nontrivial amounts of chakra in rift-kicking and moving runes. If he holes up in one place, he leaves himself vulnerable to being Zoo Rushed or Amaterasu'd from range.

Therefore, it is in Orochimaru's best interests for Leaf and Akatsuki to exhaust each other - ideally, destroy each other - and have no energy to spend chasing him. As he currently believes Akatsuki to have the edge in that contest, powering up their chief antagonist while maintaining an effortless killswitch is the optimal move.

Oro's ideal timeline is this:
Week 1: Oro is 'moving the rift to Leaf.' Hazou, now trusting uncle Oro even more than before, returns to Leaf to fortify it against aggressino
Week 2: Akatsuki forces assault Leaf, Hazou's Runes allow Leaf to bleed Akatsuki and ideally kill several members. Oro makes plausible excuses for why the Rift hasn't arrived yet.
Week 3+: Oro's treachery becomes apparent, but Leaf and Akatsuki have expended all their dry powder against each other in Week 2. Only after confirmation of events in Leaf vs Akatsuki does Oro trigger the bioseal in Hazou, killing him.

I would therefore argue it is more plausible for Oro to wait until Week 3+ before triggering the bioseal. Akatsuki already knows Runes exist (they participated in the Dragonwar) and won't be able to reverse engineer anything from Hazou's rune blanks just as they weren't able to reverse engineering anything from the Great Seal, which was a much more comprehensive 'primer' on the subject. Leaking the specific datum "the now-dead Hazou was capable of creating Runes" to the surviving Akatsuki is more than worth the average cost in Akatsuki lives Hazou's offensive Runes would reap - and more importantly, maintaining the status quo for a few weeks more ensures that Leaf and Akatsuki remain at each other's throats while he gets away, while creating the explosive new variable of Hazou's death generates far less predictable outcomes.

It is consistent with Hazou's characterization in previous plans that he would seek to have the bioseal removed ASAP, and this would give the players a bit of time to invent a solution (more time than Oro anticipates, given the existence of TR).

---

My preferred solution? A combination of both! After Jashin regenerates Hazou, the massive emotional trauma of Orochimaru's betrayal would naturally have awoken his Mangekyo Iron Nerve! It is somewhat overdramatic for Hazou to get two huge buffs out of this but that's just how the simulationist dice roll sometimes - it was already well-established that Mangekyo requries massive emotional trauma, and Hazou hadn't sacrificed an immense number of lives to Jashin (while Hidan was absent from the Human Path) until just recently.

Even better if the Mangekyo Iron Nerve grants large, immediate combat-relevant buffs that would further justify Hazou's presence on kinetic missions.

The afterlife continuation sounds cool but would require more nudging - either a chakra oasis or some kind of workaround for Hazou's powers to stay relevant in the Pure Lands, lest he be consigned to merely Hidan's sidekick with mostly-useless theoretical knowledge.

The Jashin Option, on the other hand, works completely within the textual evidence as presented by previous updates, and would easily allow for future combats with less terminal stakes! Stakes wouldn't be eliminated since Hazou could still be captured, but 'being captured' is not a quest-end scenario so the players will be more likely to vote for lines of action that involve combat.
I am reasonably confident that Hidan died during the BotG and was resurrected by Pain.
 
Also the phrasing sounds like trying to put together ideas for the purpose of keeping Hazou alive. I don't know if you are doing motivated reasoning, but I would like to remind everyone to be careful about it sneaking up on them. We should be coming up with various ideas of what seems off about the world, and then open mindedly looking at the natural conclusion of those ideas. Instead of seeking ideas that save Hazou, and trying to combine them in ways that save Hazou.
I disagree quite fundamentally with this take. We are, and must, be doing motivated reasoning, though not in the usual sense of the word. The issue of saving Hazou is not some lie that we are trying to convince ourselves is actually true by focusing only on the lines of logic that fit our wish.

The world Hazou exists in is fictional. Yes, it is attempting to be a simulationist universe, but that doesn't make it inflexible. There are hundreds of factors, axioms if you will—the basis that the simulation is built around—behind the scenes that could have easily been changed slightly to make the universe of MfD different while still being equally simulationist. In the very beginning of this quest, those factors were set so that it would be possible for us to survive. Now, we are trying to find a way to tweak those factors to save Hazou, without breaking the realism of the simulation.

This is not motivated reasoning, but goal-oriented problem solving.

So we have a goal: keep the quest going, either by saving Hazou or making an afterlife quest feasible,

We have a constraint: adhere as much as possible to what has already been established in this universe, and the rational consequences thereof,

And we have the wiggle room, which is everything behind the scenes, maybe stuff that we the players don't know about but the QM's do, and are willing to change, maybe stuff that the QM's simply forgot to take into account or overlooked, maybe it's things about the setting that the QM's haven't had cause to fully world-build out. The possibilty space is huge and there's no way to find a solution without necessarily starting from our goal—to save Hazou.
 
Alternatively I would like to see Snowflake killing Hazō to remove the bioseals. It'd be perfectly fitting for Kei to have already thought of killing Hazō to remove his bioseals but to not seriously entertain the idea. On the other hand Snowflake — of her own volition and without Kei suspecting a thing — decides the only way to save Hazō it to kill him.
I had thought she was planning on that ever since the last interlude with Kagome
 
Doylist: I don't want the quest to end. There's still some big steps to achieve, big emotional moments to hit. We're starting to be able to hit in the big leagues. I enjoyed, and continue to enjoy, the world building, the character building, the character builds, the new mechanics. And more, I would greatly miss having a bi-weekly bit of joy and engagement, that I engage with regularly enough that my partner knows based on my expression and day of the week when a new chapter has dropped. I can get onboard with minimal retconning, and certainly the last chapter did have a lot of feels. But it also felt... Empty? No blaze of glory, no fighting against a stronger opponent. Just wistful, for both Orochimaru and us.

(And there's still so much I'm sure the QMs would enjoy. Have the players thought about what coming back means? The likelihood that Ino moved on, or hates us now in a way that doesn't instantly go away just because Naruto pardons us? Or the probability that we won't be clan head again as part of this, and we'll just have fewer resources? Or that Goketsu may have collapsed without us?
And we're finally, FINALLY getting around to increasing our punching stats.
So much good stuff to still write, if you're reading this QMs.)


Watsonian: The Deadman switch has been addressed by others. The Chakra dispersal problem, using the switch if we're not nearby. Our knowing that Orochimaru is more likely to kill us off now making it less likely to be anywhere with him nearby and Tsunade not. But I do want to dive a bit into Tsunade.

She wants Hazou and Noburi back to Leaf immediately. Given that her plan of protection involves Noburi, and she's now also betting on Hazou's barriers, leaving without them seems foolhardy, if there's a contingent headed back shortly anyway. But even more than that... Orochimaru doesn't value leaf, sure. He does value Tsunade on some level though, even if he clearly was quite hurt by her not coming to his aid when he was kicked out the first time. He must know that, without Hazou, the odds that Leaf dies (with Tsunade along with it) go up significantly. And even if he doesn't care enough for Tsunade for that to move the needle any... Having a vengeful and betrayed ex teammate who feels like you've killed off what might be Leaf's best hope for survival, right after you were vouched for to said murdered kid? I wouldn't put it past Tsunade to decide it's her responsibility to put Orochimaru down once and for all. Though it's entirely possible she wouldn't, or Orochimaru doesn't model her as being willing to go that Pretty Damn Far too avenge Leaf.

An altercation that loses the rift for Leaf, has Orochimaru run off, and no immediate hope for rescue against the remaining Akatsuki, would still be quite challenging.

Otherwise... I'm not sure. But if we do survive this, it should be a short lease on life to address some of these time bombs. "Deal with the bioseal, shortly, or it'll kill you" sort of thing.

I agree with the Doylist. There's more to do here, and I really love this quest, so I don't want it to end. I'd like to continue with Hazō, specifically, in some capacity, because of this.

"I didn't think I needed to actually tell you about my contingency plans. I didn't think you were this stupid. Guess we both learned a lesson here, huh?"

This is funny to me.


Very fun update, @eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped ! I personally would like a continuation with the following traits:

*Preserves simulationism: The solution minimizes retcons; story continues onward with as much of this update canonized as possible.
*Preserves PoV: Hazou's perspective and role as mc continue.
*Feels Earned: The solution is both adequately foreshadowed by prior worldbuilding AND is a result of player action within the rules of that worldbuilding

Fortunately, there are at least two solutions that possess all these traits!

I. The Jashin Option

Plausibility: High, if Jashin is the 'washer' entity in Kamehameha's speech

As others have mentioned upthread: if the washerman is invested in the flow of souls between paths, and Hazou's EM proliferation switch goes off, the flow of souls will be permanently interrupted by the cessation of life on the Human Path. Luckily there is a very convenient solution to this which is both timely and, of all things, supported by Naruto canon!



If Hidan is in the Pure Lands, then Hazou may be the most powerful Jashinist on the Human Path. Moreover, he has just - at direct player behest - successfully sacrificed many lives to Jashin in a single cataclysmic burst, with his prayer and dedication prior to firing the RER barrage. Furthermore, Jashin has a strong vested interest in Hazou's death not coming to pass.

One could argue, therefore, that Hazou has just fulfilled the requirements to attain Hidan-style immortality, becoming Jashin's prophet on the Human Path.

And the prophet of Jashin cannot be slain by mortal hands.

Pros:
*Adequately foreshadowed by prior worldbuilding and existing Naruto canon
*Earned by direct player action
*Congruent with Hazou's immense achievements and longstanding relationship with Jashin
*Ironic yet appropriate timing
*Elegant - no retcons necessary as long as King Kamehameha was right about the 'washer' entity and the washer entity is Jashin
*Bonus - Hidan-style regeneration lowers the stakes of in-person combat and makes Hazou a virtually priceless combat asset, creating strong incentives for Hazou to participate directly in combat scenes
*If Hazou has Hidan-style regeneration, many portions of the setting do not have to be modeled as closely / with as much care, because they become less relevant on the margin

Hazou's remains begin to stitch themselves together - slowly, imperceptibly, then all at once. Hazou must navigate this post-betrayal world, avoid capture by Orochimaru (regeneration is no guarantee of relevance), contend with Akatsuki and organize matters in Konoha and beyond.

II. Mangekyo Iron Nerve

Plausibility: Pretty High

This scenario was a genjutsu / psyop by Orochimaru intended to spark the Mangekyo Iron Nerve in Hazou. Orochimaru knows how to do this from his experimentation on Ren. Why does Orochimaru want to spark a free powerup for Hazou?

Because immediately killing Hazou at this juncture isn't actually in his best interests. The ideal world for Orochimaru is one where all world-ending threats are contained or neutralized and all major powers are eliminated or subservient to him. Were he to slay Hazou now and depart with the rift, he would be hunted by the full force of Leaf and Akatsuki without the distraction of the Goketsu splitting their forces and attention. That is a level of heat he's survived before, but not while also perpetually guarding a mostly-static interdimensional rift. There is even the (small but nontrivial) risk that Akatsuki somehow believe Leaf and the two adversaries combine forces to hunt him.

If Oro simply buries the rift in a volcano or something, there's the risk that Itachi detects it with his cheating eyeballs or an exotic Crow technique, or that a Hyuuga THer finds it, or that Leaf's sealmaster corps (or Sasori) produce seals capable of locating it. As time goes on, the chance of Nagato being on the other side of that closed rift increases, so he suffers mounting existential risks each day the rift stays unguarded. Any guard less than himself would barely deter Akatsuki.

If he has to stay moving with the rift while also on the run, he can't build a comprehensive lab or power base and has to continually invest nontrivial amounts of chakra in rift-kicking and moving runes. If he holes up in one place, he leaves himself vulnerable to being Zoo Rushed or Amaterasu'd from range.

Therefore, it is in Orochimaru's best interests for Leaf and Akatsuki to exhaust each other - ideally, destroy each other - and have no energy to spend chasing him. As he currently believes Akatsuki to have the edge in that contest, powering up their chief antagonist while maintaining an effortless killswitch is the optimal move.

Oro's ideal timeline is this:
Week 1: Oro is 'moving the rift to Leaf.' Hazou, now trusting uncle Oro even more than before, returns to Leaf to fortify it against aggressino
Week 2: Akatsuki forces assault Leaf, Hazou's Runes allow Leaf to bleed Akatsuki and ideally kill several members. Oro makes plausible excuses for why the Rift hasn't arrived yet.
Week 3+: Oro's treachery becomes apparent, but Leaf and Akatsuki have expended all their dry powder against each other in Week 2. Only after confirmation of events in Leaf vs Akatsuki does Oro trigger the bioseal in Hazou, killing him.

I would therefore argue it is more plausible for Oro to wait until Week 3+ before triggering the bioseal. Akatsuki already knows Runes exist (they participated in the Dragonwar) and won't be able to reverse engineer anything from Hazou's rune blanks just as they weren't able to reverse engineering anything from the Great Seal, which was a much more comprehensive 'primer' on the subject. Leaking the specific datum "the now-dead Hazou was capable of creating Runes" to the surviving Akatsuki is more than worth the average cost in Akatsuki lives Hazou's offensive Runes would reap - and more importantly, maintaining the status quo for a few weeks more ensures that Leaf and Akatsuki remain at each other's throats while he gets away, while creating the explosive new variable of Hazou's death generates far less predictable outcomes.

It is consistent with Hazou's characterization in previous plans that he would seek to have the bioseal removed ASAP, and this would give the players a bit of time to invent a solution (more time than Oro anticipates, given the existence of TR).

---

My preferred solution? A combination of both! After Jashin regenerates Hazou, the massive emotional trauma of Orochimaru's betrayal would naturally have awoken his Mangekyo Iron Nerve! It is somewhat overdramatic for Hazou to get two huge buffs out of this but that's just how the simulationist dice roll sometimes - it was already well-established that Mangekyo requries massive emotional trauma, and Hazou hadn't sacrificed an immense number of lives to Jashin (while Hidan was absent from the Human Path) until just recently.

Even better if the Mangekyo Iron Nerve grants large, immediate combat-relevant buffs that would further justify Hazou's presence on kinetic missions.

The afterlife continuation sounds cool but would require more nudging - either a chakra oasis or some kind of workaround for Hazou's powers to stay relevant in the Pure Lands, lest he be consigned to merely Hidan's sidekick with mostly-useless theoretical knowledge.

The Jashin Option, on the other hand, works completely within the textual evidence as presented by previous updates, and would easily allow for future combats with less terminal stakes! Stakes wouldn't be eliminated since Hazou could still be captured, but 'being captured' is not a quest-end scenario so the players will be more likely to vote for lines of action that involve combat.

This is… surprisingly well-supported. I didn't think of the possibility of power-ups, but Hidan is effectively 'dead' right now, and we received an (alternate? Future?) update where Hazō became the High Priest of Jashin. And honestly, Oro using the Killswitch as suggested makes much more sense; I do agree that there's nothing we could do to stop Oro from killing us if he's willing to piss off Tsunade; he could do it in front of her, he could be clever (he JUST bragged about assassinating basically anyone he chose)… it's hard to keep in the mental blind spot of Oro to the degree necessary to not die.

I was more interested in the 'Snowflake kill' option, because then we don't wander into the woods with Oro, and Kei did just have that conversation with Kagome… but the Prophet option works too, especially if the playerbase voted as it did due to QM/player communication breakdown. (I don't use discord much, and I've been running low on spoons for a while anyways).
 
I don't think we could have hidden runes from Oro either. Hazō is completely incapable of socials and always will be. I resigned myself to that when a player asked the QMs if we could remove the Open Mouth Insert Foot debuff if Hazō's characterization changed sufficiently and the answer was no.

At that point why even bother investing XP into socials? No matter what we do, Hazō is and always will be a bad coinflip from ending up in the killbox. It's a large part of what forces so many sanity-checks.
This is very unrelated to the conversation going on right now, but I very much agree with you here. It's refreshing to see someone else has the same hangups that I do about this, I was honestly thinking I might be the only one.
 
I'm saying that, if Akatsuki has Hidan exploring the rift at this point, Hidan is currently absent from the Human Path and thus Hazou might (post-sacrifices) be ranking Jashinist authority on the Human Path.
Sorry, I…know I had a point to this, I think it had to do with Hidan's immortality being fallible, but I do not recall it. I would, however, point that Orochimaru has no reason not to bring Hazou's body for study, meaning he would get to see him regenerate.
 
This is not motivated reasoning, but goal-oriented problem solving.

So we have a goal: keep the quest going, either by saving Hazou or making an afterlife quest feasible,
I am against this goal. It is unsimulationist. The similar goal, of seeing something that looks off. Realizing that fixing it would save Hazou, and so being motivated to fix the off thing because it is important. Is fine.
 
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