Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
The only problem with things happening is when they stop happening.
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
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- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
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- She/Her/They/Them
[><] Team Uplift meets Surokawa Hanzō in a tavern, the genin mentioned in Chapter 232, who actually exists and also now just so happens to be of an appropriate level
[><] Take over Team Downfall
[><] Project: Omnicule Goes Beyond Death
[><] Take over Team Downfall
[><] Project: Omnicule Goes Beyond Death
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Not if we make it a peggy sue.
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- She/Her/They/Them
Small thought about the "he could have killed us anytime, this was decided long ago, we couldn't do much if Oro wanted us dead always anyway" - this was always a point of tension IMO within simulationism between S-rankers being a thing and the anthropic principle - no story can be told if they kept doing this always... but we earned this death, really. Demigods we can't avoid were always a thing, and Hidan not only refusing to kill us, but saving our bacon when we pissed Itachi off already felt a little help-y based on the model I had of him as a one-sided "kill kill kill" dude at the time. If this were a narrative-driven story and not a quest I'd feel cheated out of a "coming back from death" plot arc that would have been well set-up by now, but this is a quest and this world is an unfair deathworld with rational opponents so this happening is up to how Oro would have chosen to approach it, what he did to the rift, whether Tsunade goes to track him and finds us waiting behind the moved rift, what the Akatsuki is doing, what happened behind the scenes etc.
Oh, I didn't explore this thought. Hah, we could meet the exploring Akatsuki while dead. That could be a lot of fun. Unlikely team-ups etc.
Anyway my point is it's not just Snuncle, we've been outclassed by the opponents and risks this world has to offer for the entire quest and this was always tacitly accepted as a fact of the world. Uplift was fighting against a problem so big the entire world was doomed. Well, it still is if we can't argue that the world is different to what was just shown. We weren't safe for the lack of punching, apparently
Oh, I didn't explore this thought. Hah, we could meet the exploring Akatsuki while dead. That could be a lot of fun. Unlikely team-ups etc.
Anyway my point is it's not just Snuncle, we've been outclassed by the opponents and risks this world has to offer for the entire quest and this was always tacitly accepted as a fact of the world. Uplift was fighting against a problem so big the entire world was doomed. Well, it still is if we can't argue that the world is different to what was just shown. We weren't safe for the lack of punching, apparently
- Location
- UK
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I'm pretty sure we've covered this on multiple occasions. Zabuza did not kill Minami.
- Pronouns
- She/Her/They/Them
It was the Minori conspiracy wasn't it. She refused to be one of them, choosing a deviant name.
- Location
- UK
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- He/Him
Actually, it was her parents' fault. Per the funeral chapter, they were going to call her Minori but changed their minds.
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- She/Her/They/Them
Aaaah. The plot thicken.
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I think I like this chapter a lot. I don't think Hazo dying has to mean the end of the story, if the QMs want to continue writing it. We have plenty of established characters to continue the story with. Mari knows Hazou enough that she could get Voices in Hazo's head mostly by asking 'What would Hazou do'.
But I also would be happy enough to see a bunch of epilogue chapters and have it finish. All things end!
As for the deadmans switch, those only work when you can tell the opponents about them, and we cannot tell Orochimaru about the threat of Mari doing something or Mari just dies with us. Mari, given the fact that she's not dead, knows that we didn't tell Orochimaru about the Deadmans switch, and so doesn't have to follow up on the threat.
Lastly, for the 'the death was predeterminated by having Orochimaru exist':
We didn't have to play to 'win'. The hubris of going for impactful things without the bases stats to protect them as secrets was our decision, and us dying for it is entirely fair.
But I also would be happy enough to see a bunch of epilogue chapters and have it finish. All things end!
As for the deadmans switch, those only work when you can tell the opponents about them, and we cannot tell Orochimaru about the threat of Mari doing something or Mari just dies with us. Mari, given the fact that she's not dead, knows that we didn't tell Orochimaru about the Deadmans switch, and so doesn't have to follow up on the threat.
Lastly, for the 'the death was predeterminated by having Orochimaru exist':
We didn't have to play to 'win'. The hubris of going for impactful things without the bases stats to protect them as secrets was our decision, and us dying for it is entirely fair.
Missed opportunity here for Orochimaru to do the Steve Jobs meme tbh
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We do have to play to not lose, though. Great Seal degradation is a loss condition. Pain revival is maybe a loss condition. The world has forced our hand many times.
- Location
- uk
Did we have to play to 'not lose', though? Great Seal degradation is not an issue if we don't mass produce and sell skywalkers (again Orochimaru reminds us to not reach for power we cannot hold secretly). You could imagine a world where we invent skywalkers, trade them *only* to jirayia for taking us into leaf (& not to pangolins), become a 'chuunin in Leaf' quest.
I'm not saying that would have been more entertaining, but it reveals our priorities. We took power wherever we could, traded power for more power, leaving everyone overextended and vulnerable.
But if we were focused on optimizing for survival and quietly buildng up stats, not on turning around how the MfD world works in the name of making everyones lives better ([X] Armaggedon Initiative)... I don't know if what we did made Akatsuki move their timelines up, maybe that's the main loss condition there if we don't do anything. But maybe they feel no pressure and we have 5-10 years to build up, perhaps survive.
- Location
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We have knowledge now that we did not know then.
Our biggest mistake you've listed is probably that we didn't keep a tight lid on skywalkers.
Other than that:
We didn't know skywalkers would set off a chain of events leading to BOTG.
We didn't know why the GS was failing, only that we had to fix it or we'd be fucked.
We didn't know runes were so fucking hard to reverse-engineer that it's a small miracle we managed it, so we sold Orochimaru runes to get ahead of the game when he may well have never invented them at all.
etc
Also I'll note that A, wildly grasping at power is a generally smart move for ninja in deathworld, and B, we did do it slowly. This quest has been going for a decade! Do you want us to go so slowly that we have to hand off planmaking to our grandchildren?
We've been putting out fires like a overworked fireman for so long and now it's finally killed us. Fuck.
- Location
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I don't *want* us to go slowly, I'm saying that the argument of "we had to go fast or we wouldn't have a chance to win" doesn't hold water, because we were not in any way obliged to play to win. I'm arguing against "putting Orochimaru in Leaf guaranteed Hazo would die" by saying we were not playing to live. It was possible to play to live and eliminate risk. It was, as you say, possible to play to build a legacy and build a clan and have our grandchildren be in a position where they can softly influence the evolution of the world so that after some number of generations it would be a better place.
We decided not to, and that's great! Instead we did greedy, crazy plays, upset the balance of the world, started wars, weakened the great seal, exploded a lot of people, and now potentially destroyed the world via a deadmans switch. That was fun to read.
(also throughout this I'm talking in-game time, not forum time)
We decided not to, and that's great! Instead we did greedy, crazy plays, upset the balance of the world, started wars, weakened the great seal, exploded a lot of people, and now potentially destroyed the world via a deadmans switch. That was fun to read.
(also throughout this I'm talking in-game time, not forum time)
Noumero
Omit Needless Words
Having read through the thread, my preferred options for how to continue (in no particular order):
(Hope this doesn't count against the QM interdiction on voting: this is meant to buy us more time to discuss and have some catharsis; it's not a commitment to a specific resolution for the current dilemma.)
- The chapter is lightly retconned, from "Hazou started to move, but he was too slow", to Hazou uttering "deadman's switch" very fast. This gives Orochimaru a momentary pause, giving us the opportunity to vote-in a hyperoptimized high-stakes social-manipulation plan. We've done this kind of thing before, we can claw our way out of this one too. Business as usual.
- Honestly, I feel this should've been how the chapter proceeded to begin with. We made a dead man's switch specifically for this, and even if it's not, by itself, enough to serve as deterrence, it should at least have given us an opportunity to try and twist Oro's mind into a pretzel.
- This is cool because high-stakes hyperoptimized social-manipulation plans are cool.
- Hazou dies, and some combination of Jashin's favor and the QMs nudging background variables allows him to respawn in the afterlife near the rift in a state where he could infuse the Rift-Opener. He then infuses the Rift-Opener, pops out wherever Orochimaru kicked the rift, then slips out before Orochimaru gets there.
- I think this should almost work, simulationism-wise...? Especially if we Declare that we had a blank for the Rift-Opener prepared.
- This is cool because Hazou just walking off Orochimaru killing him is funny.
- Hazou dies, negotiates with Jashin (with our EM countermeasure and/or runes and/or the activity surrounding the rift and/or our plans providing us with leverage), and gets deposited in the afterlife next to one of {Akane, Hidan, Jiraiya, Ami (?), Pain}, with some tools and/or information necessary to recover the situation (including, perhaps, mental maps to the rest of the aforementioned squad).
- I'm not sure how realistic this is. Depends on what Jashin is, wants, and can do.
- This is cool because afterlife adventures are cool.
- I think landing us next to Akane first is best, as far as "scaling curve" goes, with the arc then escalating to us finding ever more powerful allies (from the above list).
- Landing next to Hidan is potentially most realistic, since if he just died at O'Uzu, he might be geographically close. This option would offer some exciting high-stakes social juggling. (Especially if we have concrete evidence Jashin favors us.)
[x] (non-canon) Interlude: Orochimaru Experiences the Consequences of His Actions
(Hope this doesn't count against the QM interdiction on voting: this is meant to buy us more time to discuss and have some catharsis; it's not a commitment to a specific resolution for the current dilemma.)
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- Location
- U.S.
I would like to note that we should have so many Jashin points, we could open a Jashin Bank at this point. Not only did we just murder a whole bunch of people but also, if we permadie, the EN becomes a cold frozen wasteland. Jashin likes change and novelty. You know what is unchanging and boring? A frozen wasteland.
Carrot and stick. We are blackmailing a eldritch god.
Carrot and stick. We are blackmailing a eldritch god.
- Location
- uk
This IMO leads to Orochimaru keeping us alive for the extra 5 minutes it takes him to give us a truth serum / torture out details of the deadmans switch from our body, and then kill us and proceed to defuse the deadman by killing whoever he needs. I have no idea what mechanics would be appropriate to this but physical access trumps basically all security precautions in general.
- Location
- U.S.
I think I'd most prefer #2, as it is relatively plausible (help us Jashin, or else). #1 isn't a terrible idea but i'm skeptical we can pull it off. #3 is interesting. I'm not sure how I feel about it, it could definitely lead interesting places but I also am not sure how much I'd like 100k+ words of a afterlife arc.
But generally, I agree. It would feel horrible to me to end it here, so close to achieving so much.
- Location
- Yes.
I think a combination of Jashin's favor and an effort by Kei/Mari/TU would suffice to give Hazou some runic substrate and Skywalkers by virtue of a minor retcon: they tossed the supplies, with the substrate/OPSEC-sensitive stuff in storage seals, through the rift before it was closed. The storage seal degrades in a way that the supplies would go poof if it was left long enough, and Akatsuki seemingly abandoning the fort would ensure that it would be gone before they arrived. The only way it would be utilized would be if someone happened to die at this precise moment - meaning it could only be used by a Hazou who was betrayed by Orochimaru.
- Location
- U.S.
Ooooh right, we don't have BoC high enough to make our own substrate...
do uh. Do we have a lot of EXP available?
Edit: Jashin has shown me a vision. There is one path forward we must take: ES 60.
- Location
- Yes.
[X] Afterlife Training Hazou: ES 60
Alright. I'm sorry if this counts as a plan, but I don't know how to show this any other way, and I haven't seen the idea show up in thread yet. I will delete this if any of you tell me to.
So. While at first glance our position may seem utterly dead, we do have some options to get out. This plan was made under the premise of "What if we got to send in one plan, right after Oro tells us to come with him.", as I assume if the previous chapter ended with that then the entire hivemind would be screaming about how we're about to be assasinated.
Hazō, immediately after leaving, pops all but one of the clones burying the ninja radar runes. This is either prearranged, or on the hope that the clone figures out that Prime is alone with Oro and needs a deadman switch.
That clone immediately heads to set one up with the Superchiller rune. The rune's location is currently undetermined as of chapter 701:
While this is happening, Hazō heads off with Oro. The chapter proceeds as written until the end, at which point Hazō severe overdraws both his transplanted and native coils. This is assumed to cause a biosealing failure, or at least muck with something, as per here:
Assuming he lives, he proceeds to immediately reverse summon, triggering the superchiller rune. This serves the purpose of both hopefully killing Oro and making sure that Hazō's return is unobstructed. It also serves as a cry for help, as both Kei and Mari can hopefully put together that the hellstorm means something went down.
This plan needs 3 things to work:
Hazō, immediately after leaving, pops all but one of the clones burying the ninja radar runes. This is either prearranged, or on the hope that the clone figures out that Prime is alone with Oro and needs a deadman switch.
That clone immediately heads to set one up with the Superchiller rune. The rune's location is currently undetermined as of chapter 701:
While this is happening, Hazō heads off with Oro. The chapter proceeds as written until the end, at which point Hazō severe overdraws both his transplanted and native coils. This is assumed to cause a biosealing failure, or at least muck with something, as per here:
This would presumably disarm the kill switch.
Assuming he lives, he proceeds to immediately reverse summon, triggering the superchiller rune. This serves the purpose of both hopefully killing Oro and making sure that Hazō's return is unobstructed. It also serves as a cry for help, as both Kei and Mari can hopefully put together that the hellstorm means something went down.
This plan needs 3 things to work:
- That the superchiller is within range of the surface
- That Hazō is lucky enough to either A. Not get a biosealing failure but still break the switch, or B. That the biosealing failure doesn't kill him.
- That Oro is overconfident, and instead of double tapping Hazō instead simply triggers the killswitch, giving Hazō enough time to get out.