Remove ads

Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

Reader mode
Paperclipped said:
That said, we disagree that Orochimaru would have been able to kill Hazou trivially without the bioseal. Prior to taking the bioseal, Hazou was reasonably paranoid around Orochimaru -- meeting only with shadow clones, keeping the Prime body away and well equipped. It would have imposed costs to keep this up for the remainder of the arc, but we don't currently think it would have been impossible. That is -- we don't think the Alertness/Athletics in the 30s meant Hazou was always going to die, since his narrative precautions can trump Orochimaru's stats.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I appreciate your candor but this is unfortunate to hear after our chakra pool became the subject of a period of friction and we were explicitly assured that whether or not we could get ACE 2 didn't matter. (For reference- it did. Cannai costs 612 chakra, and we were in fact close enough to that with the VD overcharge giving +50% for a Medium and normal ninja overdrawing giving +5% for a Mild. 380+(380*.5)+(380*.05)+(380*.05) comes out to 608 chakra with a base CR of 38, ACE 1, and the extra chakra from taking Consequences as described. Having ACE 2 would in fact have made the difference between being unable to summon Cannai without the bioseal and being able to summon Cannai without the bioseal.) Given what role OOC miscommunications played in that incident, this is bitter news to me. I still want to emphasize that I'm very grateful that you're taking this approach to communication, even if unfortunate timing places it right as we're getting bad news.
 
Last edited:
DanZapman said:
I appreciate your candor but this is unfortunate to hear after our chakra pool became the subject of a period of friction and we were explicitly assured that whether or not we could get ACE 2 didn't matter. (For reference- it did. Cannai costs 612 chakra, and we were in fact close enough to that with the VD overcharge giving +50% for a Medium and normal ninja overdrawing giving +5% for a Mild. 380+380*.5+380*.05+380*.05 comes out to 608 chakra with a base CR of 38, ACE 1, and the extra chakra from taking Consequences as described. Having ACE 2 would in fact have made the difference between being unable to summon Cannai without the bioseal and being able to summon Cannai without the bioseal.) Given what role OOC miscommunications played in that incident, this is bitter news to me.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
We actually ended up buying CR 39 and that made it enough with ACE 1. I don't want to get into this, just pointing it out.
 
DanZapman said:
I appreciate your candor but this is unfortunate to hear after our chakra pool became the subject of a period of friction and we were explicitly assured that whether or not we could get ACE 2 didn't matter. (For reference- it did. Cannai costs 612 chakra, and we were in fact close enough to that with the VD overcharge giving +50% for a Medium and normal ninja overdrawing giving +5% for a Mild. 380+380*.5+380*.05+380*.05 comes out to 608 chakra with a base CR of 38, ACE 1, and the extra chakra from taking Consequences as described. Having ACE 2 would in fact have made the difference between being unable to summon Cannai without the bioseal and being able to summon Cannai without the bioseal.) Given what role OOC miscommunications played in that incident, this is bitter news to me.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
To clarify, I said that ACE 2 didn't matter because CR39 (which Hazou had XP for and did in fact buy before his Cannai-summoning attempt) was sufficient. There was even a plan that tried to use CR39 to summon Cannai before taking the bioseal, but the plan did not get voted in (my impression being because it would have made it harder for Hazou to get his chakra-enhancing bioseal, because of the damage to his coils from a Moderate).

Edit: ninja'd, alas.
 
Paperclipped said:
To clarify, I said that ACE 2 didn't matter because with CR39 (which Hazou had XP for and did in fact buy before his Cannai-summoning attempt) was sufficient. There was even a plan that tried to use CR39 to summon Cannai before taking the bioseal, but the plan did not get voted in (my impression being because it would have made it harder for Hazou to get his chakra-enhancing bioseal, because of the damage to his coils from a Moderate).
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Paper, you have to realize how horribly misleading this is?
 
Paperclipped said:
In an alternate, no-bioseal universe, we wouldn't have fiat declared "Hazou Prime is going into the woods with Orochimaru" because Hazou would not be dead-but-for-the-timer
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
then what is the diference?, both hazous would be dead the momment oro wanted them to die seal or no seal, you could declare "hazou dies because oro says so" at any point and it would not change the outcome, it would be non-simulationist by your own metric for it to not be the case, he could be in a meeting whit both sanins, oro punches him by surprise, hazou dies withotu tsunade being able to do anything since it was a surprise attack and he is less than a meter away and it turns out it was a clone of orochimaru so he guets away wihtout a problem. if you start digging here we were death the momment oro came back to leaf since we have an interesting bloodline and jiraiya secrets and it was just a question of time.
 
Last edited:
ProperAttorney said:
We actually ended up buying CR 39 and that made it enough with ACE 1. I don't want to get into this, just pointing it out.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Paperclipped said:
To clarify, I said that ACE 2 didn't matter because CR39 (which Hazou had XP for and did in fact buy before his Cannai-summoning attempt) was sufficient. There was even a plan that tried to use CR39 to summon Cannai before taking the bioseal, but the plan did not get voted in (my impression being because it would have made it harder for Hazou to get his chakra-enhancing bioseal, because of the damage to his coils from a Moderate).

Edit: ninja'd, alas.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Ah, thanks much to both for the correction. So it was an entirely different ironic twist that made the bioseal unnecessary. That does help to know.
 
Left-Hand Mutant said:
It's probably good to start by either explaining why you find this misleading, or asking in a non-inflamatory way if Paper sees it as misleading.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I don't see much point, really. I don't really buy there was any way we could have survived this so long as Oro decided killing us was the simplest path forward for him. Which makes it largely irrelevant to matters. I was just expressing shock.
 
Instead of reacting in any other complicated ways, please allow me to make a joke.

I guess this means Hazou is not the greatest Explosion style user alive anymore. :V
 
Byzantine said:
Paper, you have to realize how horribly misleading this is?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I didn't intend to mislead anyone. I understood the question to be:

"Is ACE2 a pivotal factor that decides whether or not we are able to summon Cannai before the battle?"

To which I responded with (approximately):

"It won't matter, either because you'll be able to get enough chakra without it, or because even with it you wouldn't have enough chakra." (the latter part not being said in a single message, but being a part of the conversation's context, seeing as this happened on discord)

I didn't think this was misleading at the time, and if it was, I apologize. I only wanted to help resolve the players' uncertainty about ACE2 being maybe-decision-relevant for the Rift-war, and therefore worth voting interludes over, and I thought this was a good way to do it without leaking OOC information.
 
Paperclipped said:
That is -- we don't think the Alertness/Athletics in the 30s meant Hazou was always going to die, since his narrative precautions can trump Orochimaru's stats.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Oro can figure out where Hazou lives in Leaf and is strong enough to bypass the estate's security (Hidan did it). Or he could just wait until Hazou shows up somewhere public in Leaf to kill him.

Paperclipped said:
interact with Orochimaru in a way that isn't mediated by miles of distance and shadow clones
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
doesn't the chakra diffusion problem mean enough range would prevent the kill signal?

Paperclipped said:
In an alternate, no-bioseal universe, we wouldn't have fiat declared "Hazou Prime is going into the woods with Orochimaru" because Hazou would not be dead-but-for-the-timer)
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Paperclipped said:
With the bioseal, Hazou already couldn't survive, so we elected to at least write a more dramatic and compelling chapter.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Since the QMs have previously requested feedback I will state I find it unsimulationist to do something for the reason of being dramatic.
 
As bitter as the CP issues are, I don't think they had an effect on this because the only reason we decided to get the extra chakra coils was because we already (thought we) needed the Hidan blood changing seal, for entirely separate reasons. And it's not like Oro needed the excuse of a more complex surgery to install a killswitch.
 
Paperclipped said:
I didn't intend to mislead anyone. I understood the question to be:

"Is ACE2 a pivotal factor that decides whether or not we are able to summon Cannai before the battle?"

To which I responded with (approximately):

"It won't matter, either because you'll be able to get enough chakra without it, or because even with it you wouldn't have enough chakra." (the latter part not being said in a single message, but being a part of the conversation's context, seeing as this happened on discord)

I didn't think this was misleading at the time, and if it was, I apologize. I only wanted to help resolve the players' uncertainty about ACE2 being maybe-decision-relevant for the Rift-war, and therefore worth voting interludes over, and I thought this was a good way to do it without leaking OOC information.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
For what it's worth as the person who originally brought it up, I misremembered what CR Hazo had at the time you said it and am now of the belief that nothing you said was misleading. That was on me.


Anqied said:
As bitter as the CP issues are, I don't think they had an effect on this because the only reason we decided to get the extra chakra coils was because we already (thought we) needed the Hidan blood changing seal, for entirely separate reasons. And it's not like Oro needed the excuse of a more complex surgery to install a killswitch.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
This is a fair point, but Hidan is a manageable enough combatant that with the forces we had available to muster I honestly don't know whether we'd still have felt the need to risk Oro just to avoid risking Hidan.
 
Last edited:
Simulationist Quest: *Ends abruptly due to circumstances deciding that the protagonist should die*.
Me: *Thumb Up*.
QMs: *Give a chance for players to convince them not to make this canon*.
Me: *Other Thumb Up*.
 
DanZapman said:
This is a fair point, but Hidan is a manageable enough combatant that with the forces we had available to muster I honestly don't know whether we'd still have felt the need to risk Oro just to avoid risking Hidan
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
It wasn't to avoid Hidan himself, it was fear of alerting potentially 4 Akatsuki members we were setting up an offensive on their fort
 
so, what was stopping oro from developing a version of the cannibal seal that causes a much more severe affliction?, self-harm for example?, he would just have to show us it and pinch, wound't have mattered if it was a clone since the memmory get's transfered and no-one has the expertiese to undo it, he could have destroyed whatever nation he wanted whit that since S-rankers can do a lot of harm and there is very little way to prevent it.
 
I'm absolutely down for afterlife quest or for starting a new character - those both seem like very interesting options! (And I think they're both much more in keeping with the nature of this quest than rolling back the chapter would be.) But as far as I'm concerned, this was a satisfying ending. We've always known that the risks are real, and in this case, knew that giving Oro any oppportunity to kill us - let alone letting him install bioseals - was a big risk. We came up with some alternatives to working with him but none that seemed satisfactory, so we went for it anyway.

It's been a lot of fun, and we made it farther than I'd honestly have expected when I started reading in about 2016; both Hazō and the quest itself have survived things that most members of their respective reference class don't, and even if this is the end of it all I think the players can be proud of having gone from 'some Mist genin' to 'killed by Orochimaru because we were his rival'.

If this is to be the end of the quest, however, I would hope for an epilogue or two.

But also
[X] Armageddon Initiative
Zerovirus is right, if there's ever been a time to vote that without the chi, this is it
 
Last edited:
Velorien said:
There's nothing in the current rules to support it, but it's an interesting possibility if we want to go for a "Hazō survives" rollback scenario.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Cariyaga said:
Another similar option: Hazou got antoher level of ACE, and that desynced the explosives with his chakra system.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Another possibility along the same lines:
This bioseal has obviously never been triggered on a summoner before. Turns out reverse summoning does... something... that degrades the kill switch.
 
Paperclipped said:
Could Orochimaru have maybe found non-biosealed!Hazou's location and killed him? Possibly, yes. But it would be uncertain, and if Orochimaru failed, Hazou would be infinitely more paranoid and Orochimaru might never have gotten a good opportunity again. Instead, Orochimaru would continue waiting for a good opportunity. He might have killed Hazou at a later date, since without planting a bioseal and playing his hand, Orochimaru could continue to butter up Hazou, and Hazou might eventually let down his guard and interact with Orochimaru in a way that isn't mediated by miles of distance and shadow clones. However, that outcome wouldn't be certain, and would be left up to a series of player decisions, meaning there would be opportunities to decide to stay away forever, or somehow convince Orochimaru that Hazou was safe, or to arrange Orochimaru's death, or.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I dunno. Seems pretty uninspired. You're claiming a S-rank ninja can't do an assassination mission on a chunin because he has a shadow clone? That's pretty silly. Oro could have at any point easily killed Hazo. Both in simulation and in narrative. Saying "Oh, no, he totally couldn't have." is just lame and does you and this quest a great disservice. And the whole "Hazo would be infinitely more paranoid thing" is just, uninspired? What's Hazo gonna do? Not work with Oro? Remember the rift race that we a few chapters ago? You're gonna claim Oro's can't act because he's afraid a jutsu gonna miss a chunin? For real? That's what stopping Oro from acting? And even in the near imposible situation that Oro misses? "Practice, Nephew. You must'n be so slow." The complaint is that we've been forced to work in close proximity with Oro to have a chance to win. It doesn't matter how "paranoid" Hazo is or was. It doesn't really matter what we do. We didn't have an out and Oro could have easily ended us at any time. Claiming otherwise is just in poor taste. Oro (for all the reasons given in this chapter) kills us in this chapter, bioseal or not. That's what the simulation says. Saying he wouldn't have because, uh, "fiat" is not a compelling reason. You can't now claim Oro would have acted totally differently because Oro would've needed to use an equally easy, but different method to achieve his goals. It breaks the whole "simulation" aspect part and feeds into my point. Your "simulation" (correctly) says Oro kills Hazo on this chapter for x, y, and z reasons. Okay. Fine. But that's why it feels lame? Imagine if it wasn't a bioseal, and Oro just decided to stab us this chapter? Nothing important would change, but maybe you'd get why this ending feels sorta forced.

Eisenhelm said:
then what is the diference?, both hazous would be dead the momment oro wanted them to die seal or no seal, you could declare "hazou dies because oro says so" at any point and it would not change the outcome, it would be non-simulationist by your own metric for it to not be the case, he could be in a meeting whit both sanins, oro punches him by surprise, hazou dies withotu tsunade being able to do anything since it was a surprise attack and he is less than a meter away and it turns out it was a clone of orochimaru so he guets away wihtout a problem. if you start digging here we were death the momment oro came back to leaf since we have an interesting bloodline and jiraiya secrets and it was just a question of time.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Exactly my point.
 
Last edited:
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top